Batman 89 Vs. TDK

[ALP]

There is one scene in B'89 that looks absolutely dreadful. It is the batwing crashing to the street. It clearly looks like a model...the batwing, the streets, and the cars. Even the sound effects are bad.

For quite some time, I thought it was just a case of 'aging badly' but that is not the case at all. By a happy mistake I came across Ebert's 1989 review of Batman and in it he specifically mentions how bad that scene looks at the time it was done. Tim Burton even said it's the one scene he regrets. He meant for it to look like a cheesy model effect but realized that cheesy effects don't work in big budget movies they way they did in something like Pee Wee or Beetlejuice.

 

[Smalley]

1) Movie - The Dark Knight
2) Director - Tim Burton
3) Batman - Christian Bale
4) Joker - Heath Ledger
5) Sound Track - Danny Elfman
6) Woman friend - Maggie Gyllenhaal
7) Alfred - Michael Gough

 

[OutRiddled]

There is one scene in B'89 that looks absolutely dreadful. It is the batwing crashing to the street. It clearly looks like a model...the batwing, the streets, and the cars. Even the sound effects are bad.

For quite some time, I thought it was just a case of 'aging badly' but that is not the case at all. By a happy mistake I came across Ebert's 1989 review of Batman and in it he specifically mentions how bad that scene looks at the time it was done. Tim Burton even said it's the one scene he regrets. He meant for it to look like a cheesy model effect but realized that cheesy effects don't work in big budget movies they way they did in something like Pee Wee or Beetlejuice.

I was never too bothered by it. The animated Batman in the beginning looks worse. Most of the miniatures look really good. Same with the matte paintings.

 

[uniqueweasel]

1) The Dark Knight
2) Christopher Nolan
3) Michael Keaton
4) Heath Ledger
5) Hans Zimmer/James Newton Howard
6) Kim Basinger
7) Michael Caine

 

[Ponyboy]

There is one scene in B'89 that looks absolutely dreadful. It is the batwing crashing to the street. It clearly looks like a model...the batwing, the streets, and the cars. Even the sound effects are bad.

I dont think it's that bad. The "shadowy" Batman on the rooftop at the beginning of the film is more atrocious. I also think Joker falling to his death looks more awful than the Batwing.

 

[Thoix]

1) Movie - The Dark Knight
2) Director - Christopher Nolan
3) Batman - Christian Bale
4) Joker - Health Ledger
5) Soundtrack - Danny Elfman
6) Woman friend - Maggie Gyllenhaal
7) Alfred - Michael Caine

 

[Ponyboy]

1) Movie - Batman '89 vs The Dark Knight
-Even 20 years later I find myself still watching this film... whereas Dark Knight (on subsequent viewings) I am finding is less enjoyable.

2) Director - Tim Burton vs Christopher Nolan
-I will admit Nolan is probably the better director, though I enjoy Burton's films more.

3) Batman - Michael Keaton vs Christian Bale
-I truly believe Keaton is a better actor than Bale. I see what Burton saw in Keaton. The amazing thing about Keaton's performance is, despite his physical appearance, he made us all believe he was Batman.

4) Joker - Jack Nicholson vs Heath Ledger
-They were both equally nuts. They're almost perfect within each respective film. But, I think my ideal version of the Joker is a combination of the two so it's a tie.

5) Sound Track - Danny Elfman vs Hans Zimmer/James Newton Howard
-Nothing beats the first 8 or 9 seconds of Elfman's Batman theme.

6) Woman friend - Kim Basinger vs Maggie Gyllenhaal
-Basinger just looked great in the film, and she genuinely seemed to care about Bruce while being torn between her job. Maggie to me, though a great actress, is just extremely unattractive. Call it shallow, or whatever you like, but in this instance I couldn't get past her extremely homely appearance.

7) Alfred - Michael Gough vs Michael Caine
-He's definitely the more likeable Alfred. Caine is probably closer to the comics of today with his wit and sarcasm, but there's something about Gough's less verbal (and more warm) performance that sticks with me.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I know its cliche by now but the two really ARE apples and oranges. They both beautifully succeeded in what they were aiming for. Keaton was stunningly perfect for the Gothic expressionist presence he was suppose to portray and Bale was perfect for the real life translation of the character

Both movies hit the bullseye in their own respective categories imo

 

[Blue Sugar]

1) Movie - The Dark Knight
2) Director - Christopher Nolan
3) Batman - Christian Bale
4) Joker - Heath Ledger
5) Sound Track - Hans Zimmer
6) Woman friend - Maggie Gyllenhaal
7) Alfred - Michael Caine



This was too easy TDK is one of my favorite movies of all time and B89 while nice is a bit overrated in my mind.

TDK elevated me from a fan of Batman to a Batman fan.

 

[バット人]

Say what you will about the other categories (Keaton vs. Bale is hard, but Elfman vs. Zimmer is even harder) but I can't, for the life of me understand why anyone would think the best "woman friend" is Maggie Gyllenhaal. I just can't see it. I mean, even looks aside she's one of the most wooden performers in TDK. The other categories are harder, especially when it comes to overall movie, Batman, and the soundtrack, but Gyllenhaal over Basinger? There should literally be no contest there. Rachel is basically a cardboard cut out, a lame "made up" character that's sole purpose is to lecture and berate Bruce. Fans disliked her so much that a majority was hoping that she'd die in TDK and, well, look how that turned out. I've seen other films with Gyllenhaal and she's fine but in TDK she really is awful. "What are you DOOOING", the scene where she's staring blankly into the TV after watching the press conference, etc. Just watch the film again and look at her scenes. Then par that with how unattractive she is and, well, I just don't get it.

Basinger had much more substance, acting ability, and looked GREAT doing it. This was Kim Basinger in her prime. The only negative quality I could see is that she screamed just a little too much for my liking. Other than that, it was a solid performance.

 

[Fudgie]

1) Movie - The Dark Knight
2) Director - Christopher Nolan
3) Batman - Christian Bale
4) Joker - Heath Ledger
5) Sound Track - Hans Zimmer
6) Woman friend - Maggie Gyllenhaal
7) Alfred - Michael Caine

 

[GothamLegend]

For quite some time, I thought it was just a case of 'aging badly' but that is not the case at all. By a happy mistake I came across Ebert's 1989 review of Batman and in it he specifically mentions how bad that scene looks at the time it was done. Tim Burton even said it's the one scene he regrets. He meant for it to look like a cheesy model effect but realized that cheesy effects don't work in big budget movies they way they did in something like Pee Wee or Beetlejuice.

Yea, very good call. Just the mechanics and physics of it don't come off right. A jet plane would be moving at slowest maybe like 200 - 300 mph, and it proceeds to crash from that six shooter bullet at a snails pace. It's an obvious model shot, and looks quite terrible. As do a few of the shots of the batwing turning, there is some awkward movements that aren't believable in terms of how a jet would turn.

Some of the matte paintings look beautiful. The one outside Grissom's window. The opening shot of Gotham, and the city scape as the batwing approaches. But there is also some really suspect ones. Especially that overly crisp looking bat symbol at the end. And Batman watching over the city in what looks to be a different bat-suit. The cape was a different material, and the ears magically shrunk.

Question, was that an animated Batman at the start of the film? If so, why didn't he just use a real shot? It looks terrible. Oh and since the film has been cleaned up on blu-ray, etc there is some errors. You can see the bottom of Batman's shoe before he drops behind the goons at the start of the film. In ALL the fight scenes, you can tell it's someone else in the bat-suit doing the stunts. None more evident than the scene in the alley with the super powered jumping ninja, joker goon guy.

Movie - The Dark Knight

Pure Entertainment - Batman '89

Thought Provoking Material - The Dark Knight

Marketing - Batman '89

Hype - Batman '89

Event - The Dark Knight

Innovation - Batman '89

Effect on Pop Culture - The Dark Knight

Director - Christopher Nolan
Score - Howard / Zimmer
Cinematography - Wally Pfiester
Costume Design - Bob Ringwood
Bruce Wayne / Batman - Christian Bale
The Joker - Heath Ledger
Alfred - Michael Cain

 

[Ponyboy]

Y
Effect on Pop Culture - The Dark Knight

Hmm... That's the one opinion of yours I'd have to flatly disagree with. I don't think one has to argue much for 89s Batman in this particular case because it's so painfully obvious that it beat DK in almost every aspect. The shoes, the haircuts, the baseball cards, etc... Even little girls were wearing Batman shirts. The marketing was just as big (if not bigger) than the movie itself. I think you want to believe the DK's effect of on pop culture was greater, and thus, you added the category in when it wasn't part of the original line of this vs. that.

 

[GothamLegend]

Hmm... That's the one opinion of yours I'd have to flatly disagree with. I don't think one has to argue much for 89s Batman in this particular case because it's so painfully obvious that it beat DK in almost every aspect. The shoes, the haircuts, the baseball cards, etc...Even little girls were wearing Batman shirts. The marketing was just as big (if not bigger) than the movie itself. I think you want to believe the DK's effect of on pop culture was greater, and thus, you added the category in when it wasn't part of the original line of this vs. that.

That's the marketing machine that geared people up for the movie. That's why I listed Batman '89 as the clear cut winner in that category.

I'm talking about the effect on pop culture AFTER the release. For B89 the hype exceeded the actual product. TDK was insanely hyped as well, it just wasn't as new and fresh of an idea with excitement as B89 was ... but the product for TDK delivered in ways B89 NEVER did, thus what came after was an effect where TDK permiated pop culture. TDK has had nods, homages in all kinds of mainstream televisions shows, Batman '89 never had that.

B89's hype and MARKETING was a monster and a blue print for the modern blockbuster.

But by effect on pop culture, and how it permiated it ... I'm talking about the influence of the movie, The Dark Knight had a longer lasting impact AFTER the release of the movie.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I disagree with this as well. It changed the face of comic book movies and had an instant impact. before batman suprhero movies were colorful and kid friendly. Right after B89 was released R rated Punisher came out, a much darker than expected TMNT and Darkman. BTAS used same ideas for their world and even music, comic books used same gadgets and incorporated its Gotham. Not to mention an entire mass public perception of batman was altered from what it was for decades (http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/12/impact-of-batman.html) As for B89 not having homages, I take it as a joke of course.

 

[Mister Meddle]

I was about to say the same thing. Batman 1989 set the standard for comic book films and even the modern day Batman movies. Many people consider the Joker "hit me" scene as a nod to the Batman 1989 movie. Hell there was even a reference in the movie Kick Ass. In the end of the film the villain kid said something like "as a wise man once said, wait until they get a load of me". Yes, this is over 20 years after the movie's release. Rubber suits and black make up is still being used. Who was the one to introduce that kind of stuff? Oh and let's not forget that the Burton films inspired Bruce Timm to do Batman The Animated Series. To act like Batman 1989 had/has no impact on pop culture (after it's release) is a bit silly.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Nola said it best: "The 1989 Batman film that Tim Burton did, that tone has defined comic book movies " (BO Mojo int.)

 

[Ponyboy]

but the product for TDK delivered in ways B89 NEVER did, thus what came after was an effect where TDK permiated pop culture. TDK has had nods, homages in all kinds of mainstream televisions shows, Batman '89 never had that.

Proof to back up that weak argument?

But by effect on pop culture, and how it permiated it ... I'm talking about the influence of the movie, The Dark Knight had a longer lasting impact AFTER the release of the movie.

You're dead wrong. Were you around in '89? Do you remember the impact that movie had? I remember girls wearing Batman buttons and batman tee-shirts. Girls. It was m a n i a.

The Batman film inspired the BTAS cartoon, and opened the door for hero movies that came after. The 1989 film (along with the boom of 1986) increased the awareness of the comic book property itself and made it "cool" for adults and young adults to pick up comics off the shelf.

So what are you basing your DK defense on? DK had a longer lasting impact after the release of the movie based on your perception? I daresay that if Ledger had not died (or won the posthumous Oscar), it's quite probable that DK would've had about as much impact as Batman Begins...

 

[CConn]

The real travesty of his post was picking Zimmer and Howard over Elfman. I actually listened to both full length albums recently, and they aren't even in the same league. While Zimmer has some really enjoyable measures, every note of Elfman's score is engrossing. I would honestly say it's one of the best film scores of all time.

 

[Elevator Man]

The real travesty of his post was picking Zimmer and Howard over Elfman. I actually listened to both full length albums recently, and they aren't even in the same league. While Zimmer has some really enjoyable measures, every note of Elfman's score is engrossing. I would honestly say it's one of the best film scores of all time.

Agreed.

 

[OutRiddled]

Cinematography - Wally Pfiester

That's the only thing I agree with. The Dark Knight has some truly beautiful cinematography, of course the IMAX adds to that but the sweeping shots of the cityscapes are pretty epic.

 

[The Morningstar]

The idea that TDK has made more of an impact on culture than 89 is ridiculous and shows just how deluded these Nolanites can be.

Let me ask this, why was TDK so anticipated? A big reason of that is because it was a new film with Batman vs Joker. Now, why is a new film with Batman vs Joker so anticipated..?

Anyway...

Movie: Batman 89. Actually feels and looks like a Batman movie.
Director: Tim Burton. Better sense of style, the whole atmosphere of his film feels perfect for a Batman movie. Doesn't break the golden rule of film making (show, don't tell). Doesn't try to force a silly socio-political message down our throats, yet 89 did still have underlying themes and a streak of satire about the "yuppie era" in it.
Batman: Michael Keaton. He's smaller than Bale phsycially, but he seemed like he genuinely had mental issues and was borderline psychotic. Bale's Batman/Bruce seems too forced for me. Especially his Batman. It's like the Batman persona doesn't come naturally to him, as it should.
Joker: Honestly can't decide. Both were great.
Score: Elfman. Not even close
Woman Friend: Basinger. Not even close.
Alfred: Hmmm tough one. I love Michael Caine. But all his Alfred seems to do is spoon feed things that Bruce needs to know to progress his development as a character or to progress the plot. Even worse, he seems to spoon feed the audience. But hey, pretty much every character does that in TDK. Gough's Alfred might not have as much to do, but like someone else said, he's warmer and more charming. Plus he seems like a real life human being rather than a mouth piece.

 

[Fudgie]

Why do some Burton fans get upset when they see more people not voting for the Burton categories?

I was about to say the same thing. Batman 1989 set the standard for comic book films

Donner's Superman did that.

 

[El Payaso]

Why do some Burton fans get upset when they see more people not voting for the Burton categories?

Who is actually upset because of that? We don't even have a poll here.

And that said, why would that upset you?

Donner's Superman did that.

And Burton re-defined. Nolan happens to agree.

 

[Fudgie]

Who is actually upset because of that?

All the ones challenging people's preferences as if they were wrong for it. One of them even called them deluded Nolanites.

We don't even have a poll here.

So?

And that said, why would that upset you?

If I ask a question that means I'm upset?

And Burton re-defined. Nolan happens to agree.

I don't think he redefined. Donner did a comic book movie in a mature way that was well received. I think it's more iconic than Batman as well.

Nolan even used Donner's Superman as inspiration for the way he did Batman Begins.