Batman: Arkham City - Part 4

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]356275[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]351175[/split]

 

[Jick]

I know it's a game and all But Harvey could of just had another group of thugs tackle her down or something!!,Plus 24 hrs latter?Is that covered in the prequel comic?

Not as of yet.
I don't think it will be.

 

[Drz]

I see what you did there. We get it that you don't like Gilda Dent being the Holiday Killer or that twist ending. Got it. But that doesn't make it a poor story. The focus of the story is not on who the Holiday Killer's identity truly is, but on the relationship between Bats, Dent and Gordon. That is so well developed it, along with another iconic Bat-story you dismiss called TKJ, is literally the basis for The Dark Knight. A movie widely considered the definitive Batman film and you yourself like. It must have done something right.

I just can't enjoy all that relationship and drama and the impact on the downfall when Jeph Loeb felt he had to change the script because the internet figured out who the Holiday Killer was, it would have also been awful if lets say Oberon Sexton's identity had been changed simply because the internet guessed since #4 (and #5 hit the nail on the coffin) who Oberon was, and heck #4 was his introduction, #5 pretty much confirmed who he was on the fan suspect list. I do enjoy TKJ since it packs alot for it's 55 pages, but i don't agree with Batman being that insane he'd share a good laugh with the Joker after all just happened, i mean i do love the smiling Batman because thats when he is the scariest. Miller's Batman smiles when he has a plan and thats scary, when you read Batman Incorporated and you see him and his army fightning globally againts crime, you see Batman smiling and you can just fele that crazy determination he has to fight for justice. Tho i do find TKJ almost an unrecommendable book because of the ending, i mean endings are always such big impact books, but the new deluxe edition packs alot of cool extra stuff and whatnot, the recolored edition is really nicely done aswell.

And again why is it impossible to believe that Gilda could have outsmarted someone not even looking for her? I guess citizens are only allowed to defeat Batman's mind if they dress like clowns or wear bright green tights with a lot of question marks.

Can you point a story where said criminals have ever been as talented as Gilda Dent and pulling it all off? Joker's initial story that Ed Brubaker wrote (this is post-Loeb however, so i'm not using that pointing how smart young Bruce was) is a really good detective story as Batman is trying to understand who and what exactly Joker is, he almost manages to even win.

That's actually Batman coming to grips with his allegorical role in the cyclical madness of Arkham (it becomes very trippy metaphysical at that point). I don't mind that. But this is a Batman who Morrison alter admitted was a satire of Frank Miller's in TDKR. He is literally insane in this story (Morrison's words) and a broken man-child who cannot rationalize having adult relations with another person and who has a mental breakdown at the start because of a word association game. If I recall, doesn't he end up stabbing a huge hole in his own hand (which would cripple him for life in reality) with a shard of glass because he is having flashes of his dead parents?

I don't think i've read him say ti was a satire, both Moore and Morrison did say they we're inspired by TDKR and it was an experimental writing, but i more remember Morrison talking how it's like an european horror story. I mean it is just bat-crazy stuff such as the glass example.

I like the story. More for how it explored Amadeus Arkham and several of the villains in such a dark, poetic and creepy way. But while the Batman who emerges is mentally stronger, he is depicted intentionally as weak, paranoid and likely nuts. Morrison meant this to be him fighting to keep from going over the edge and in some ways mocking Miller's Batman. It's a great story, but it is again a far cry from the Batman you describe to love in your posts. In fact, it is an assault on that image.

I don't consider it an assault for Batman having his more mentally weak days, i mean Morrison's modern Batman run begins with Batman pretty much going: You know with Barbara getting shot, Jason Dying, Knightfall, No Man's Land and now Infinite Crisis, i've had enough! I can't take this aymore!

So what does Batman do? Mediates and gets his inner demons killed, but this is the moment the Black Glove strikes so you got Morrison's swan song to the more Batman controlled Batman, and what emerges within Return of Bruce Wayne and now Batman Incorporated is the more Bruce-controlled Batman.

One thing I don't get and annoys me is how Harvey captures Selena so easy,She kicks a group of big thugs's a**But a gun is pull on her and she just gives up!?She could of easily smacked the gun out of his hand and run away by the time Harvey grabs the again!

I know it's a game and all But Harvey could of just had another group of thugs tackle her down or something!!,Plus 24 hrs latter?Is that covered in the prequel comic?

Yeah i think it would have worked if Harvey had just smacked her head, and yeah 24 hours to give a presentasion that Two-Face is serious by killing off Catwoman? I think the prequel comic ends where the game begins.

 

[The Caped Knight]

I don't care who you are, if you have a gun pointed to your head you are going to yield.

Would it stop Batman?I think not!

He'd never have the chance to point it at Batman's head, Two face would be too busy laying on the ground unconscious after Batman tore him open a new one.

If Batman ever found himself in that very situation with Two-Face, he'd probably would do two or more things to Harvey.

(1) Pull out a small hidden batarang from his gauntlet glove and stab Harvey's hand holding the gun then punch him out

(2) Grab Harvey's hand and break it causing the gun to fall to the ground where Bats would probably give him the beating of his life.

(etc..) Duck and kick him in his knee cap ....

 

[Paradox1]

In Batman TAS under a similar circumstances with Two face where he had Bats in a life or death situation. Bats threw a bunch of coins in the air causing Two face to become indecisive about what to do.

 

[SpideyVille]

In Batman TAS under a similar circumstances with Two face where he had Bats in a life or death situation. Bats threw a bunch of coins in the air causing Two face to become indecisive about what to do.

Didn't that happen in Batman and Robin too?

 

[The Joker]

Didn't that happen in Batman and Robin too?

Batman Forever that happened in. They might have gotten the idea off BTAS.

 

[SpideyVille]

Batman Forever that happened in. They might have gotten the idea off BTAS.

I always confuse the two. I always feel like the titles should've been reversed.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

I always confuse the two. I always feel like the titles should've been reversed.

It doest really matter. They were both on a level of awful thats unmatched.

 

[The Caped Knight]

I disagree Batman Forever was a good entertaining film that had some awesome moments. B&R is a total abomination that had no good qualities whatsoever .

 

[Kane52630]

B&R is a total abomination that had no good qualities whatsoever .

Batman & Robin was way more entertaining than Batman Forever.

 

[Jick]

Depending on how you look at it, B&R can be a decent comedy.

 

[Grommers]

Yeah, people need to stop comparing it to tdk and more to zoolander

 

[SpideyVille]

Oh noes!, what did I start?

 

[TX85]

LuisTX85, that seems like a civilized post.

Sorry lol,I was just kidding and I actually like some of B&R cause to me it's like a weird comic-issue or cartoon episode come to life and so as a Superhero comedy it is actually pretty good!!!

I don't think it's more entertaining than Batman:Forever though and I find that one underrated as a Batman movie,But first thing I thought reading your posts were that pic&gif and so I posted them But yeah I didn't mean to come off as hostile or anything!!

 

[Darkness Falls]

alot of y'all need to........ CHILL

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

The problem with Gilda being the killer is the total lack of foreshadowing and clues. It's like having a detective story where instead of the clues finally revealing the true killer, he simply gives a short monologue at the end stating it was him, with very little evidence to back it up.

Her being able to outwit the entire mob, Batman and her own husband is a stupid contrivance not because she is an ordinary person but because there is literally nothing to suggest she was capable of doing so. It all happens offscreen, and Loeb cleverly fills the gaps by stating "she did it". Simjilar is Alberto's "death", a fakeout made predictable by Loeb's overreliance on the device - justr read Hush.

That of course is the least of TLH's horrible storytelling, the biggest being the almost total lack of development in Harvey to Two-Face like what was present in the far superior Eye of the Beholder which examines the childhood abuse by his father that developed his disorder. He instead becomes a villain because I guess he's angry half his face is gone. Even his coin gimmick is barely explained. There is no doubt TLH has great scenes, and even the relationship between the three protagonists is mostly good, but the holiday murders and greater focus on them in general mean what could have been a great story of the rise and fall of Harvey Dent and the impact on the three, is instead an entertaining read despite hack storytelling, made much better in many eyes because of Tim Sale's gorgeous artwork.

Yeah, and on-topic - love the new front cover for Arkham City, much better than the last. Still would've liked it better if Catwoman was alongsaide him, but still, loks wonderful and can't wait to have it on my shelf.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Well, it happened to Loeb twice. In Long Halloween everybody figured out the killer and in Hush, it is rumored that Jason was in fact Hush, and that editorial forced him to change the story. But at least that edit slightly made sense, aside from the weak reasoning as to why Tommy was the villain at all.

 

[Drz]

The problem with Gilda being the killer is the total lack of foreshadowing and clues. It's like having a detective story where instead of the clues finally revealing the true killer, he simply gives a short monologue at the end stating it was him, with very little evidence to back it up.

Her being able to outwit the entire mob, Batman and her own husband is a stupid contrivance not because she is an ordinary person but because there is literally nothing to suggest she was capable of doing so. It all happens offscreen, and Loeb cleverly fills the gaps by stating "she did it". Simjilar is Alberto's "death", a fakeout made predictable by Loeb's overreliance on the device - justr read Hush.

That of course is the least of TLH's horrible storytelling, the biggest being the almost total lack of development in Harvey to Two-Face like what was present in the far superior Eye of the Beholder which examines the childhood abuse by his father that developed his disorder. He instead becomes a villain because I guess he's angry half his face is gone. Even his coin gimmick is barely explained. There is no doubt TLH has great scenes, and even the relationship between the three protagonists is mostly good, but the holiday murders and greater focus on them in general mean what could have been a great story of the rise and fall of Harvey Dent and the impact on the three, is instead an entertaining read despite hack storytelling, made much better in many eyes because of Tim Sale's gorgeous artwork.

Yeah, and on-topic - love the new front cover for Arkham City, much better than the last. Still would've liked it better if Catwoman was alongsaide him, but still, loks wonderful and can't wait to have it on my shelf.

Is this story collected in any trade? This isn't the first time you mention it, and i'm very curious to read some good Two-Face story.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

Is this story collected in any trade? This isn't the first time you mention it, and i'm very curious to read some good Two-Face story.

Unfortunately no, but it is worth tracking down. I happily have a copy at the town library. It's highly disturbing that The long Halloween with all its flaws is far better remembered over the Eye of the Beholder, which is a much better examination of Harvey, whereas in TLH the focus is barely there. Strangely TLH rips a lot off a lot of it while being nowhere near as good. Many iconic scenes fans cite from TLH (such as Gordon/Harvey/Bats on the rooftop) are shamelessly copied from this.

There's an excellent examination of it here that has 1/3 of the story and fills in the gaps. Definitely worth a read over Loeb's:
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1802964.html

 

[Drz]

Unfortunately no, but it is worth tracking down. I happily have a copy at the town library. It's highly disturbing that The long Halloween with all its flaws is far better remembered over the Eye of the Beholder, which is a much better examination of Harvey, whereas in TLH the focus is barely there. Strangely TLH rips a lot off a lot of it while being nowhere near as good. Many iconic scenes fans cite from TLH (such as Gordon/Harvey/Bats on the rooftop) are shamelessly copied from this.

There's an excellent examination of it here that has 1/3 of the story and fills in the gaps. Definitely worth a read over Loeb's:
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1802964.html

I can't believe Loeb is even more unoriginal hack who copies other writers than that. I mean it's obvious how he ruined Frank Miller's Maroni family and others to makeway for his God Father ripoffs while also ripping off iconic scenes from Miller's stories, but the Two-Face part is so ripped off that it makes Loeb a two-faced guy himself for never giving any real credit to the right people.

I mean i can recommend Long Halloween by the Tim Sale art, but never can anyone recommend it for it's story when a 1/3 of an issue (and the Secret Origin and so on) material right there give far better idea on Two-Face, that was absolutely fantastic with all the characters there from Gilda to Gordon to Two-Face's father.

 

[DACrowe]

Unfortunately no, but it is worth tracking down. I happily have a copy at the town library. It's highly disturbing that The long Halloween with all its flaws is far better remembered over the Eye of the Beholder, which is a much better examination of Harvey, whereas in TLH the focus is barely there. Strangely TLH rips a lot off a lot of it while being nowhere near as good. Many iconic scenes fans cite from TLH (such as Gordon/Harvey/Bats on the rooftop) are shamelessly copied from this.

There's an excellent examination of it here that has 1/3 of the story and fills in the gaps. Definitely worth a read over Loeb's:
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1802964.html

Fair enough. My problem with EOTB is that it focused entirely on Dent's downfall. We never see why he was truly a good man who could have been a great force for change in Gotham. Both TLH and Nolan's TDK did a better job of showing Dent as "the white knight" who falls, instead of just being weak.

I do agree that Loeb lifted some of the rooftop ideas, but he and Sale did it much better (IMO) by making it a full fledged war on the mob and less of an alliance. It was more of a triumvirate. I also thought the explanation for the coin and Harvey's troubled marriage were well done.

Though I do agree that the transition after the scarring from hero to villain was glossed over in TLH (mostly because he was in hiding). With that said, the end with him killing Falcone and turning himself in could have been the end of Two-Face's story. In fact, I feel that if you viewed YO, TLH and DV as a trilogy (though DV is not nearly as good as TLH, which is not nearly as good as YO), that it would be better off if Two-Face just died when Joker shot him off the ledge. He was handled so well in that trilogy that seeing him come back to do petty crimes takes away from the tragedy of Harvey Dent. I imagine that is why Nolan chose to kill him off at the end of the movie.

 

[TX85]

Is pre-ordering at Best Buy pretty simple?Like you just go to"Customer Service"or Game section's clerk and pre-order there then pick it up at the same place??

I always pre-order at GameStop and I heard for places like Wal-Mart you can only pre-order Online then pick it up at the store and so I don't know IF it's the same for Best Buy or target!!!

 

[The Caped Knight]

I'm very intrigue to know what "Protocol 10" is. And if it's connected to the data chip Catwoman stole from Two-Face's vault.