Batman v. Superman vs Thor: The Dark World

[Flint Marko]

Yes, but TDKT (and Logan to a certain extent) showed that the genre could be more than that. I'm no longer a child, so childish pursuits and entertainment no longer hold my interest. Does nearly every single superhero film need to fit in the same mold? Even most of the newer, more mature films still appeal to that same inner child that studios love to exploit.

Not all comic books are for children, so why should all comic book movies be? If there's room for Sandman or Promethea or Y: The Last Man or All-Star Superman in the original medium, why can't we get films like that, too? It would be such a missed opportunity if the only serious & mature entry to come out of the genre in its history is TDKT.

I don't think anyone is opposed to the genre having a variety of tones/approaches. The only people who sound like they are opposed to that are the ones who derisively refer to the more light-hearted fare as "Saturday morning cartoons", as if the MCU should be ashamed of having an all ages feel. That's baloney. You don't get credit just for making something po-faced and serious.

 

[Zarex]

Yes, but TDKT (and Logan to a certain extent) showed that the genre could be more than that. I'm no longer a child, so childish pursuits and entertainment no longer hold my interest. Does nearly every single superhero film need to fit in the same mold? Even most of the newer, more mature films still appeal to that same inner child that studios love to exploit.

Not all comic books are for children, so why should all comic book movies be? If there's room for Sandman or Promethea or Y: The Last Man or All-Star Superman in the original medium, why can't we get films like that, too? It would be such a missed opportunity if the only serious & mature entry to come out of the genre in its history is TDKT.

This is the golden age of comic book adaptations, and there are plenty of material out there whatever your taste. Logan was just last year and we've got shows like Legion, Happy and Preacher with The Boys upcoming on Amazon. Those should sate the growed up intellectual needs of one such as yourself.

Though I haven't been a child for many decades, I love feeling like one for a couple of hours. Which I do whenever I watch the MCU and see characters I grew up loving on the big screen in an inter-connected world that mirrors the old 616 in all its glory. But if your inner child is dead there's still plenty of options for you.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Yes, but TDKT (and Logan to a certain extent) showed that the genre could be more than that. I'm no longer a child, so childish pursuits and entertainment no longer hold my interest. Does nearly every single superhero film need to fit in the same mold? Even most of the newer, more mature films still appeal to that same inner child that studios love to exploit.

Not all comic books are for children, so why should all comic book movies be? If there's room for Sandman or Promethea or Y: The Last Man or All-Star Superman in the original medium, why can't we get films like that, too? It would be such a missed opportunity if the only serious & mature entry to come out of the genre in its history is TDKT.

Ironically I think the whole "superhero movies are for children" is a pretty childish argument. Or maybe less childish and more adolescent.

As for serious and mature, I think Logan is much better than TDK in that regard. A much tighter script that nails it's themes and doesn't have involuntary silly things like that the Joker had to be based on luck and opposed by the Police Academy to seem intelligent, which definitely didn't mesh with the tone for me.

 

[DACrowe]

They're both awful but I could see myself watching BvS (or scenes of it anyway) in the same way I can watch bits of B&R again: it is so awful it is kind of fascinating to see how poor the decision making process was that went into it. (It also admittedly has some nifty cinematography).

I'd sooner watch paint dry than Thor 2 again.

 

[RomanticPenguin]

Thor The Dark World is fresh at 66%. Man of Steel is rotten at 55%.
That being said I agree that it would be a better comparison as the films do seem a lot closer in quality.

bit random unless you don't know what the average rating is

6.2 both

 

[The Endless]

I don't think anyone is opposed to the genre having a variety of tones/approaches. The only people who sound like they are opposed to that are the ones who derisively refer to the more light-hearted fare as "Saturday morning cartoons", as if the MCU should be ashamed of having an all ages feel. That's baloney. You don't get credit just for making something po-faced and serious.

Well said.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Thor: The Dark World wins just for Loki. Ignoring all other factors, Loki in the film was great and gives the film rewatch value.

 

[JKKS085]

bit random unless you don't know what the average rating is

6.2 both

Or misread your original post.

 

[Elayis]

Yeah, I can't give it that credit, because Batman and Superman in one movie is so safe, you can make a horrible movie and still make 800M. Batman being in it at all was always a cowardly mandate. It was the epitome of a safe move, and the only ambition it had, to rush to the big teamup is not only tainted because of the telegraphed greed for money, but was reached for so ineffectively, it's hard to admire, rather than laugh at. It's not like a great Batman Superman story is some great feat that hasn't been done literally thousands of times. Because of that, it's relatively simple to reach, but Snyder was weighed down by trying to hold on to Randian morality while trying to reach up for superheroes who are in direct opposition to that philosophy. I do not admire people who try to do relatively simple things and fail because they have ignorantly burdened themselves. I pity such people, generally. With these things in mind, the cultural context for these characters, BvS isn't so bad it's good, it's just sad, pitiful and a waste of everyone's time and resources.

TDW actually becomes mediocre, imho, for a similar reason, in that in trying to play up Loki, the fan favorite, the safe move, instead of developing Thor, the actual carrier of the theme, the film lost it's heart, purpose and way as a Thor movie. If it was trying to proffer a nonsensical message that doesn't fit the characters, as well as introduced Captain America, Iron Man and Hulk to the world in a series of gifs on Selvig's computer, it would be rated just as badly, I think.

I'm not a fan of BvS. In fact, I find it rather similar in quality to TDW (which makes this one of the few vs. threads I support), I simply gave my reasons for why, if I had to pick one, I would choose BvS over TDW. I simply find it more interesting and engaging. It's layers might be ****, but at least it has some. There's absolutely nothing compelling about TDW.

Again, my calling BvS "interesting" or "engaging" is only in relation to TDW or other milquetoast superhero endeavors. On its own it's not something I ever imagine myself watching again.

I don't think anyone is opposed to the genre having a variety of tones/approaches. The only people who sound like they are opposed to that are the ones who derisively refer to the more light-hearted fare as "Saturday morning cartoons", as if the MCU should be ashamed of having an all ages feel. That's baloney. You don't get credit just for making something po-faced and serious.

That's why I don't give Snyder or Logan much credit. Their attempt at maturity was only superficial, and lacked true sophistication and intelligence.

I have no problem with the MCU in general, it simply isn't for me. I don't understand why their entire line-up has to have the same tone and characteristics, and I think it's a mistake for them to not venture out of their comfort zone, but that's only my opinion. Nearly all of their films are solid entertainment, I'll give them that, but they're not films that stick with me. They're a fun time at the movies, but that's about it. Granted, that's more than most modern blockbusters accomplish.

You can make a film that's fun and still attempts something deeper (like TLJ), so I don't understand why Feige sticks to a popcorn approach. BP was a step in the right direction, but I don't foresee it having larger implications on the MCU itself. The X-Men used to be my go-to franchise for a more grounded superhero film, but since 2011 they've all been a disappointment, and now with the merger (if/when it happens) I expect they'll be molded to fit the MCU.

It just seems like the only decent superhero films we get now are the lighter fare, and no one seems interested in doing something with a little more depth and nuance. It feels like the genre has stagnated, and there aren't any filmmakers interested in trying different things with it. It'd be nice if how Feige describes each film as its own genre was true, but they all follow the same template and hit the same notes. There aren't many auteur filmmakers interested in working with superheroes.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't see how Logan "lacked sophistication and intelligence" at all. If that doesn't cut it for you then I'm not sure what will.

 

[Elayis]

This is the golden age of comic book adaptations, and there are plenty of material out there whatever your taste. Logan was just last year and we've got shows like Legion, Happy and Preacher with The Boys upcoming on Amazon. Those should sate the growed up intellectual needs of one such as yourself.

Though I haven't been a child for many decades, I love feeling like one for a couple of hours. Which I do whenever I watch the MCU and see characters I grew up loving on the big screen in an inter-connected world that mirrors the old 616 in all its glory. But if your inner child is dead there's still plenty of options for you.

It seems to me that all popular entertainment today caters to one's inner child. The studios have figured out there's obscene amounts of money to be made by appealing to nostalgia, and that's not something that interests me. But this is part of a larger, off-topic discussion that I don't feel like talking about. Suffice it say, I feel like I've outgrown most comic book related entertainment (I don't much read them anymore either), and almost none of the movies appear to have grown up with me.

Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with these films existing, I just wish it they didn't come at the expense of more meaningful and thought-provoking blockbusters. 2017 was pretty good with BR 2049, TLJ, Apes and Dunkirk, but none of those were superhero films; it was also an outlier year and not representative of the overall trend. This year, unfortunately, looks much less inspiring to me.

I haven't been particularly impressed by a comic book film in awhile. TWS, AoU, WW and BP were all pretty good, but that's 4 films out of 24 since 2013. The last one that truly amazed me was TDKR, and seems poised to remain that way for the foreseeable future. Nothing on the horizon leads me to believe it will be surpassed, and that disappoints me.

Of the titles you listed, Happy! was the only one I enjoyed (I was actually surprised by how good it was).

I don't see how Logan "lacked sophistication and intelligence" at all. If that doesn't cut it for you then I'm not sure what will.

The father-daughter relationship was very underdeveloped, so it being used as the emotional lynchpin of the ending was unearned and didn't work for me. The damage that a lifetime of violence had on Wolverine was payed lip-service to, but ultimately it felt like Mangold wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. The villains of the film were two dimensional and dull, and having an evil clone of Wolverine was both too on-the-nose and played out (weren't Lady Deathstrike & Sabretooth basically the same character, what he could've been if he gave in to his primal urges?). Also, the frequent references and parallels to Shane came off as lazy.

 

[Hordakfan]

It seems to me that all popular entertainment today caters to one's inner child. The studios have figured out there's obscene amounts of money to be made by appealing to nostalgia, and that's not something that interests me. But this is part of a larger, off-topic discussion that I don't feel like talking about. Suffice it say, I feel like I've outgrown most comic book related entertainment (I don't much read them anymore either), and almost none of the movies appear to have grown up with me.

Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with these films existing, I just wish it they didn't come at the expense of more meaningful and thought-provoking blockbusters. 2017 was pretty good with BR 2049, TLJ, Apes and Dunkirk, but none of those were superhero films; it was also an outlier year and not representative of the overall trend. This year, unfortunately, looks much less inspiring to me.

I haven't been particularly impressed by a comic book film in awhile. TWS, AoU, WW and BP were all pretty good, but that's 4 films out of 24 since 2013. The last one that truly amazed me was TDKR, and seems poised to remain that way for the foreseeable future. Nothing on the horizon leads me to believe it will be surpassed, and that disappoints me.

Of the titles you listed, Happy! was the only one I enjoyed (I was actually surprised by how good it was).



The father-daughter relationship was very underdeveloped, so it being used as the emotional lynchpin of the ending was unearned and didn't work for me. The damage that a lifetime of violence had on Wolverine was payed lip-service to, but ultimately it felt like Mangold wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. The villains of the film were two dimensional and dull, and having an evil clone of Wolverine was both too on-the-nose and played out (weren't Lady Deathstrike & Sabretooth basically the same character, what he could've been if he gave in to his primal urges?). Also, the frequent references and parallels to Shane came off as lazy.

Not all comic book movies or graphic novels relay on superheroes you know! I mean Sin City, History of Violence, Akira, Road to Perdition and more.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

It seems to me that all popular entertainment today caters to one's inner child. The studios have figured out there's obscene amounts of money to be made by appealing to nostalgia, and that's not something that interests me. But this is part of a larger, off-topic discussion that I don't feel like talking about. Suffice it say, I feel like I've outgrown most comic book related entertainment (I don't much read them anymore either), and almost none of the movies appear to have grown up with me.

Like I said, I'm perfectly fine with these films existing, I just wish it they didn't come at the expense of more meaningful and thought-provoking blockbusters. 2017 was pretty good with BR 2049, TLJ, Apes and Dunkirk, but none of those were superhero films; it was also an outlier year and not representative of the overall trend. This year, unfortunately, looks much less inspiring to me.

I haven't been particularly impressed by a comic book film in awhile. TWS, AoU, WW and BP were all pretty good, but that's 4 films out of 24 since 2013. The last one that truly amazed me was TDKR, and seems poised to remain that way for the foreseeable future. Nothing on the horizon leads me to believe it will be surpassed, and that disappoints me.

Of the titles you listed, Happy! was the only one I enjoyed (I was actually surprised by how good it was).



The father-daughter relationship was very underdeveloped, so it being used as the emotional lynchpin of the ending was unearned and didn't work for me. The damage that a lifetime of violence had on Wolverine was payed lip-service to, but ultimately it felt like Mangold wanted to have his cake and eat it, too. The villains of the film were two dimensional and dull, and having an evil clone of Wolverine was both too on-the-nose and played out (weren't Lady Deathstrike & Sabretooth basically the same character, what he could've been if he gave in to his primal urges?). Also, the frequent references and parallels to Shane came off as lazy.

I have a hard time aligning wanting more serious and intelligent movies and at the same time praise TLJ, which is one of the most poorly written movies I've seen in a while. It seemed like part of a competition of how many logical errors you could put in a movie, plus that it halted most character development from the predecessor, leaving even the most interesting character from TFA feeling flat.

Logan is amazingly written in comparison. The only downside is that it doesn't have really strong villains, but neither did TLJ. Even in a comparison with TDK it's only the villain part where TDK can be seen as better in my view, and that's solely due to Ledger's performance. Otherwise The Joker wasn't written to be actually intelligent and Two-Face was laughably unbelievable in that tone.

BR2049 I agree that it's actually great through and through. Apes I haven't seen yet, but Dunkirk was a disappointment to me. It looks great, I like how the timeline is laid out, but Nolan just didn't manage to connect me emotionally to much that was going on. I was also disappointed not to see some of the most tense moments from reading about the historical events, like the bombing of the beach. I don't get how he omitted such important events that really explain why the situation was as it was.

 

[Elayis]

Not all comic book movies or graphic novels relay on superheroes you know! I mean Sin City, History of Violence, Akira, Road to Perdition and more.

Well, the name of this forum is SuperHeroHype, so I focused mainly on that. Besides, they're the only comic book adaptions that typically get big budgets; they're also far less common. I very much enjoyed Sin City, V for Vendetta, Road to Perdition, A History of Violence and Scott Pilgrim, but they feel like a different genre to me. Same goes for anime/live action adaptions of manga.

I'm looking forward to Hellboy, though, if only because it's directed by Neil Marshall (I didn't care for the del Toro films).

It also occurs to me that we are wildly off-topic.

 

[Timebomb]

TDW and it's no contest. The end credits scroll is better than BVS.

BVS made me not want to watch my favorite comic book character on screen.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Even though it's uneven and the story stagnates at times, Thor: TDW is still better than BvS, mainly due to the Thor-Loki relationship.

 

[I Am The Knight]

They're both awful but I could see myself watching BvS (or scenes of it anyway) in the same way I can watch bits of B&R again: it is so awful it is kind of fascinating to see how poor the decision making process was that went into it. (It also admittedly has some nifty cinematography).

I'd sooner watch paint dry than Thor 2 again.

Agreed. I actually bought BvS on Blu-Ray and have seen it a number of times as it's quite memorable in some terrible ways but has some very cool things about it, too. I've seen TDW twice and I don't care to see it again even if I enjoy some of the Asgard stuff.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I have just re-purchased BvS on 4K Blu Ray, don’t think I would ever do that for TDW unless it was part of a collection.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Batman chasing the goons for no reason since he put a tracker on them. Batman murdering those goons in the most elaborate ways. Batmobile going through a ship for no reason. Superman chatting with Batman and letting the bad guys get away. I am a mess every time I watch it. It's hilarious.

I'm still unclear why Batman killing obvious villains is such a problem when Wonder Woman killed more people than Batman and Superman combined.

 

[The Endless]

Wonder Woman was fighting in a war. That whole Batmobile chase sequence where he straight up murdered a bunch of people was unnecessary and gratuitous.

 

[Mjölnir]

I'm still unclear why Batman killing obvious villains is such a problem when Wonder Woman killed more people than Batman and Superman combined.

Probably a lot because if you make a list of superheroes famous for having the idea of not killing anyone as a core trait Batman would be in the top 2.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Wonder Woman was fighting in a war. That whole Batmobile chase sequence where he straight up murdered a bunch of people was unnecessary and gratuitous.

She's still a character with godlike powers who slaughtered humans because she was grief-stricken. That's far more egregious than a human killing humans in a battle.

 

[DA_Champion]

Peoples who complain about the lack of depth in CBMs, as I often do lol, might do better to watch more real films and even some documentaries.

It's true that these movies can be shallow, but they are a small subset of all films !

 

[DA_Champion]

I have a hard time aligning wanting more serious and intelligent movies and at the same time praise TLJ, which is one of the most poorly written movies I've seen in a while. It seemed like part of a competition of how many logical errors you could put in a movie, plus that it halted most character development from the predecessor, leaving even the most interesting character from TFA feeling flat.

Logan is amazingly written in comparison. The only downside is that it doesn't have really strong villains, but neither did TLJ. Even in a comparison with TDK it's only the villain part where TDK can be seen as better in my view, and that's solely due to Ledger's performance. Otherwise The Joker wasn't written to be actually intelligent and Two-Face was laughably unbelievable in that tone.

BR2049 I agree that it's actually great through and through. Apes I haven't seen yet, but Dunkirk was a disappointment to me. It looks great, I like how the timeline is laid out, but Nolan just didn't manage to connect me emotionally to much that was going on. I was also disappointed not to see some of the most tense moments from reading about the historical events, like the bombing of the beach. I don't get how he omitted such important events that really explain why the situation was as it was.

Last Jedi ended up being innoculated from criticism because the SJWs loved it and the misogynists hated it. Some jackass made a 47 minute cut of the film that removed all of the female characters and after that it became politically radioactive to criticize TLJ.

As for what I think of TLJ, I think that it was ok. Neither great nor awful. The jokes were stupid. The plot didn't make a lick of sense but for the most part moviegoers don't care about plot, they care about "characters" and TLJ had modestly interesting character work. The scene with hyperspace ramming at the end didn't make any sense at all, but it made a female character look good and so that's what won.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I have a hard time aligning wanting more serious and intelligent movies and at the same time praise TLJ, which is one of the most poorly written movies I've seen in a while. It seemed like part of a competition of how many logical errors you could put in a movie, plus that it halted most character development from the predecessor, leaving even the most interesting character from TFA feeling flat.

Logan is amazingly written in comparison. The only downside is that it doesn't have really strong villains, but neither did TLJ. Even in a comparison with TDK it's only the villain part where TDK can be seen as better in my view, and that's solely due to Ledger's performance. Otherwise The Joker wasn't written to be actually intelligent and Two-Face was laughably unbelievable in that tone.

BR2049 I agree that it's actually great through and through. Apes I haven't seen yet, but Dunkirk was a disappointment to me. It looks great, I like how the timeline is laid out, but Nolan just didn't manage to connect me emotionally to much that was going on. I was also disappointed not to see some of the most tense moments from reading about the historical events, like the bombing of the beach. I don't get how he omitted such important events that really explain why the situation was as it was.

Other than your opinion on Dunkirk, which I loved, I agree with a lot of this. TLJ had just as many misses as hits for me, and I outright hated some of the choices made. Logan was much better.

Apes for me is THE under appreciated movie of 2017, it’s an amazing movie.