Bought/Thought April 15th, 2009

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought Doctor Octopus was a perfectly suitable replacement for Norman as Spider-Man's #1 nemesis. I always liked Ock more than any Green Goblin anyway.

 

[JewishHobbit]

So I bet you hated it when Norman Osborn returned from the "dead"... seeing as his death was also an "epic" storyline (to say the least) and a great death...

I did actually. However, his absense was explained decently well and we saw that he was 'present' all along. And his screwing with Peter like he had for years, as well as others, enhanced his character and advanced his level of threat. It took a while for me to really accept it but it was done in a way that it really only helped things and built character, not degenerate them like with Peter in OMD. Harry's return, if explained well, could be good, but Peter's still stuck in the 70's or 80's and overshadows whatever good may come from Harry's return.

 

[Themanofbat]

I did actually. However, his absense was explained decently well and we saw that he was 'present' all along. And his screwing with Peter like he had for years, as well as others, enhanced his character and advanced his level of threat. It took a while for me to really accept it but it was done in a way that it really only helped things and built character, not degenerate them like with Peter in OMD. Harry's return, if explained well, could be good, but Peter's still stuck in the 70's or 80's and overshadows whatever good may come from Harry's return.

Harry's return has been explained... in ASM #581 & 582...

 

[CaptainCanada]

I thought Doctor Octopus was a perfectly suitable replacement for Norman as Spider-Man's #1 nemesis. I always liked Ock more than any Green Goblin anyway.

The Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus angle has always lacked the crucial personal element that the Spider-Man/Green Goblin dynamic has (apart from embarassing things like the time he dated Aunt May).

 

[Phaedrus45]

Man, name one story during his Married days that was worse than OMD. Even the Clone Saga was better, in character, and had more goods than bads.

I could probably come up with a lot of stories since the 90's that are a lot worse than OMD. Of course, it's all personal opinion. (Two that come to mind...The Other is FAR worse than OMD, and I'll never forget the children of Gwen .... and, didn't Peter almost sleep with Gwen's daughter in that one, while he was still married to MJ? That might be one of the worst stories EVER.)

Now, I'm one of those rare people that liked the Clone Saga. And, Mephisto has always been one of my favorite villians; so, OMD didn't bother me much, because it was great to see that villian again.

As for villains coming back to life, yeah, it's no biggy when it's someone like Doc Ock or Venom, but when it's Peter's Best Friend who had a mini-epic of a storyline and a great death, it always sucks. Plus, this wasn't just a return from death, it's a return from death with the purpose of bringing back that "Old Spider-Man Feel". Blah.

When a hero or villian dies, I never believe it's truly the end. (Heck, they brought back Bucky, and that was the standard that would NEVER be touched!) Now, in a recent one-shot, they explained how Harry came back to life; and, that story where he died still happened. So, that wasn't erased. It all still happened. (I think many people thought the deal with Mephisto erased everything they've been reading for years, which it didn't.)

I'm actually not a big Iron Man fan and hadn't read much of his stuff until the Extremis arc and the arc that followed it, so I have no emotional connection to the character, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't a 20 year alteration.



Good to hear, but if she's not his wife, I don't care to see her.

That just seems wrong. If you're an MJ fan, you should rejoice seeing her again. Why does her having to be his wife make the comic?

I was always a fan of Black Cat, and loved their romance much more than MJ and Peters. But, my love for Spider-Man isn't about who Peter hooks up with. Peter has always been about getting screwed over in his love life, whether it's Debra Whitman, Black Cat, Gwen Stacy, Betty Brant, or Mary Jane Watson.

 

[kguillou]

You know i must admit that even though i was a fan of the marriage, i was always secretly rooting for Black Cat. I've always loved her chemistry with spidey and plus she's hotter than MJ. If peter ever cheated on MJ with Cat, i cant say i would be upset. lol t:

 

[GNR]

DC has decided to sacrifice fans in their 20's and 30's for fans in their 40's and older, and frankly that has not improved their sales.

Umm yea,Green Lantern is one of the hottest books on the stands and one of DC's best selling.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

^^ Yes, but overall, DC is the biggest hit right now, I don't think.

 

[GNR]

Cap #49 - I was more interested in what the hell happened to 50s Cap,glad to see him back and more creepy than ever.This book just keeps moving,whether it's fast paced espionage styled action or character focused pieces like this,the pacing of the overall story is simply flawless.

Powers Vol.12 - Thoughts later.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus angle has always lacked the crucial personal element that the Spider-Man/Green Goblin dynamic has (apart from embarassing things like the time he dated Aunt May).

What does the personal element really bring to the Spider-Man/Green Goblin rivalry? Norman kidnaps May every now and then? That's hardly even worth mentioning.

 

[kguillou]

Well....Norman's done a bit more than that Corp. lol

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Doctor Octopus has done a lot, too. And if this personal connection (the best of which has already been done with Norman, as far as I'm concerned) is so important, have Doc Ock figure out Peter's identity. Hey, personal connection.

 

[Dread]

Umm yea,Green Lantern is one of the hottest books on the stands and one of DC's best selling.

I was talking more about FLASH I think.

But, honestly, all I get from DC these days is editors wanting to relive their youths, and it just seems very backward. Granted, I've rarely been much for DC for many years. I buy a few of their books but right now Image usually offers me better stuff for a non-Marvel alternative.

 

[Mr. Green]

Doctor Octopus has done a lot, too. And if this personal connection (the best of which has already been done with Norman, as far as I'm concerned) is so important, have Doc Ock figure out Peter's identity. Hey, personal connection.

I don't see the personal connection really being that big a deal. I agree with you that Doc Ock is the better Spidey villain.

Especially with Dark Reign going on -- Osborn just seems more like an Iron Man or Avengers villain than a Spidey villain, ya know?

 

[JewishHobbit]

Never have really liked Doc Ock. Couldn't get into him. As funny as it is, the only issue I really liked with him was the issue where Kaine Killed him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't see the personal connection really being that big a deal. I agree with you that Doc Ock is the better Spidey villain.

Especially with Dark Reign going on -- Osborn just seems more like an Iron Man or Avengers villain than a Spidey villain, ya know?

Osborn just seems awkward and incongruous to me. Every time I see him in the Dark Reign stuff, I can't help feeling he's somewhere he shouldn't be. It makes no sense for him to have his current position, yet there he is.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Doctor Octopus has done a lot, too. And if this personal connection (the best of which has already been done with Norman, as far as I'm concerned) is so important, have Doc Ock figure out Peter's identity. Hey, personal connection.

If you get a chance read Spider-Man/Doc Ock Year One by Wells. There's plenty of personal in the Spider-Man/Ock dynamic. My favorite year one story ever written.

 

[Brainiac 8]

Osborn just seems awkward and incongruous to me. Every time I see him in the Dark Reign stuff, I can't help feeling he's somewhere he shouldn't be. It makes no sense for him to have his current position, yet there he is.

It's just Marvel wanting to put Osborn in the Lex Luthor posisition within the Marvel universe. This is their "President Lex" story.

It isn't working though, at least not in my mind. Lex would wipe the floor with Osborn like one of his cronies.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Exactly. I still just don't see Norman as being quite up to the level they're portraying him at now.

If you get a chance read Spider-Man/Doc Ock Year One by Wells. There's plenty of personal in the Spider-Man/Ock dynamic. My favorite year one story ever written.

I read some of it, I think. It was pretty good. I don't remember too much of it, though.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Damn good ending, really established why pete and otto have a very personal relationship and otto's love/hate of spider-man once he glimpsed the soul of radiation. Plus using hippies to **** up pete's spider-sense? Brilliant, Otto was freaky inventive in that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I think I missed that issue. Still, it serves my point: Ock's a much more fun and interesting villain when he's written well than Norman, whose best years are behind him as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Brainiac 8]

My other issue with Marvel trying to "Luthorize" Osborn is his sudden ability to command the respect of such villains like Dr. Doom and Namor. When did that happen?

Lex Luthor can command the respect and attention of some of DC's most powerful villains, but that is because he has spent years proving just how dangerous he is, even if he isn't a meta. That took years of work and characterization for Lex.

Osborn has never proven to anyone that he deserves the respect of Dr. Doom and the like that Marvel is trying to give him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, the Illuminaughty doesn't bug me as much. If Osborn could make it to the position he currently holds, it would suit all of the Cabal's members' best interests to work with him if he extended the offer.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I think I missed that issue. Still, it serves my point: Ock's a much more fun and interesting villain when he's written well than Norman, whose best years are behind him as far as I'm concerned.

Give you a recap if you'd like, but just in case you want to find it yourself:

[blackout]Otto walks in on his mom making time with some dude so he kills her, but also goes psychotic, blocking out the event and speaking as if she was alive. The accident happens and otto is locked up with the gov. trying to figure out how he got that way. He learns to use music to control the arms, his girlfriend shows up, otto freaks and starts killing people, finds out he subconsciously loves her as the arms won't kill her, then Spider-Man breaks in and saves the general's life but gets his ass kicked (tracers ock though). Ocks arms which can "feel" radiation find the tracer and ock reengineers the tracers signal to always transmit a warning. Ock's overdosed by the radiation and has a major freakout as he's dying, but he doesn't die for some reason, his body fights back barely. Ock goes to the nuclear reactor to see the soul of radiation, stops to make fun of the hippie protestors and hands them out pins which contain the tracer warning signal. Ock then kills the engineers and attempts to enter the reactor. Spider-Man shows up but the hippies almost drive him mad. Ock finally sees the reactor himself, shocked look on his face, and is confronted by spider-man. Ock beats down pete again ranting about how they should be friends as Spider-Man is the sole person ock respects, but pete pulls a bag with some chemicals and dose's ock explaining when he found out ock's arms could feel radiation he made something that would overloads the arm's senses (cool effect of both men using the other's tech against them). Ock is on the ground getting beaten up, flashes back to being a little kid picked on by bullies and suddenly starts crying and begging pete not to hit him. Pete immediately stops, piting the man. Ock is shocked pete isn't a bully as he hands him back his glasses (like when they first met in issue one). Final scene, Ock's in jail writing a letter to his dead mother. He tells her how disappointed radiation turned out to be, how its soul was lacking, then explains it's ok because he's found something better and even more fulfilling than his previous work (cut to image he's painting of the Vitruvian Man but as spider-man, the same image they started with).[/blackout]

 

[moraldeficiency]

My other issue with Marvel trying to "Luthorize" Osborn is his sudden ability to command the respect of such villains like Dr. Doom and Namor. When did that happen?

Lex Luthor can command the respect and attention of some of DC's most powerful villains, but that is because he has spent years proving just how dangerous he is, even if he isn't a meta. That took years of work and characterization for Lex.

Osborn has never proven to anyone that he deserves the respect of Dr. Doom and the like that Marvel is trying to give him.

From what I've seen doom barely tolerates osborn at all, no respect but you also don't piss on the guy helping you out.

I'm not sure about a lot of this, marvel is just upping a character that used to only play in the Spider-Man universe, but they're not doing something that hasn't been done time and again by both companies. What's the big deal? Norman has history with the hellfire club, several mystical cults which he's head of, has a major corportation, is possibly the best chemical specialist on earth and is delightfully mad. He's not a bad choice for them to pull out as a change up. It's not that norman doesn't have the creds, he's just never been out of the spider-man box until recently. Is lex a better villian? Sure, but I'll say only some versions of lex can say this (robot suit lex is much more lame). I guess I just don't see why it's an issue, they didn't make the absorbing man into a mastermind or anything like that, and they certianly haven't shown norman coasting by, the hood calls him out to his face; loki made an avengers team; doom has nothing but distain for him; same with namor. If doom was kissing ass, I'd agree it was stupid, but he's not doing that at all he's simply tolerate osborn since osborn interests lay in assisting doom.