Bought/Thought for 10/20/10 - SPOILERS!

[TimBisley]

I liked the mini, so I wouldn't mind an ongoing. Hopefully with the same creative team though. It wasn't the "best thing ever!" but it wasn't the worst either. It was a solid story. Considering how the mini ended, it wasn't a completely throwaway story, so it "matters" to Steve Rogers' overall storyline. I particularly liked the art, even if skinny Steve Rogers looked ridiculous.

I also picked up Hulk 26, which I enjoyed enough to stay with the title. At this point, I will pick up anything the Jeff Parker writes. And The Return of Bruce Wayne 5 which was the most satisfying comic I have read in a long time. I'm embarrassed to say that I actually effing giggled while reading this. I wasn't sure about Irving's art at first, but its grown on me. Especially his Joker, who is creepy as hell, and Damien. I particularly loved the facial expressions for Damien in the issue. His face when saying, "You're not the Devil!" just seems so...Damien. Not many artists can do that for me.

 

[Dread]

One go-to plot for Cap. The other being something from his WWII days coming back to haunt him in the present. I swear, Marvel's present has more WWII stuff than the History Channel.

The third go-to plot for Cap was toying with reviving Bucky. That'd happened a few times, a fact Brubaker himself cited in a few interviews. It usually was always a robot or an illusion or something. He simply did it for real, stuck with it and is having it play out to logical conclusions. Amazingly, that sort of development is still rare in many superhero comics.

But, yeah, WWII stuff or super-soldier variants come up a lot in Cap stories. I do get tired of seeing them. This one even had BOTH! Is there any way to write a Captain America story that doesn't try to stretch a memory back to the 40's or involve people who could get perfectly powerful MGH and make themselves strong enough to fight Wolverine or an entire team would settle for a super soldier serum?

Hell, just your standard imitation Stark armor can make you more powerful than Captain America. Of course, Stark fights people who want to use his tech a damn lot, so much that Fred Van Lente half mocked it in IRON MAN LEGACY, where he basically had Radioactive Man say, "If you don't want anyone to use your technology, stop inventing or using it and go live in the mountains as a monk, otherwise STOP YER WHINING," in so many words.

I perhaps wouldn't mind all the imitation super-soldier stories if anything ever came of any of the knock-off Cap's who show up. Aside for John Walker, they always fade away (Protocide) or die (GI Max, Anti-Cap, etc.). To be fair to Brubaker, in THE MARVELS PROJECT, he implied that the super soldier serum was at least partially derived from studying blood samples from John Steele, who is a superhuman empowered by unknown means (and could be a mutant; even in his Golden Age stories, the source of his power was never revealed). So Brubaker is trying to do a definitive story, and the Shadow Council is seeking to not merely zonk up someone on 'roids, but to duplicate Rogers in terms of the type of person he was before. Granted, this has also been done before; The Colonel from ULTIMATES 2 was basically a Muslim version of this from Mark Millar. Even Protocide was basically tricked and brainwashed by AIM into being who he was; he wasn't genuinely bad. Still, the irony is in trying to re-create the super soldier, many experiments have created specimens that were far more powerful, or dangerous. In the end of course, Rogers is the hero he is for who he is; being a super-soldier just gives him an option to do stuff physically.

It seems I keep bringing up Protocide, and perhaps for two stupid reasons. The first is I never minded his design, even though he owes a lot to the Red Guardian from Russia. The second is his name reminds me of Proto-Man from the MEGAMAN franchise. Those are two completely stupid reasons to remember a one note antagonist character, but it is what it is. Although he was a 90's guy who wanted to be "kewl" by having the last bit of the word "homicide" in his name, like Spidercide (who was one of the crappiest parts in an already crappy story, the 90's Clone Saga).

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I've got my own fanwank idea for why people are so interested in the Super-Soldier Serum. Forget about the physical aspects; Steve Rogers' brain is the real prize. He's really not all that physically powerful, yet he manages to take down plenty of dudes tougher than he is through solid tactics and battlefield maneuvering and such. Brubaker established that his brain functions more efficiently and allows him to "see faster," and he's also the greatest leader the Marvel universe has ever seen. True, some of that is likely his own natural qualities more than the serum; but since he's the only proper Super-Soldier who ever got made, the people after the serum don't really know that for sure. Imagine a mass-produced army of even normal people with Steve's mental qualifications. It'd be a force to be reckoned with even if your enemy deploys a handful of vastly more powerful superhumans, and all it costs the higher-ups is the replication of a simple formula, as opposed to a suit of armor for each person or the possibility that an army of gamma-powered brutes might get out of control or whatever. Brilliant on the battlefield, low cost, relatively easy to put down if they go rogue. Sounds like a damned fine deal for any country seeking a military edge.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

Kick-Ass 2 #1

Oh, and AgentEnforcer, it's possible your character is in this book, as we see this new team that Kick-Ass is joining; it's just they aren't named, as they appear at the very end of this issue. I guess next issue we'll learn who they are.

Excellent, that would be very cool. This is what I think they are basing it on.

 

[Dread]

I've got my own fanwank idea for why people are so interested in the Super-Soldier Serum. Forget about the physical aspects; Steve Rogers' brain is the real prize. He's really not all that physically powerful, yet he manages to take down plenty of dudes tougher than he is through solid tactics and battlefield maneuvering and such. Brubaker established that his brain functions more efficiently and allows him to "see faster," and he's also the greatest leader the Marvel universe has ever seen. True, some of that is likely his own natural qualities more than the serum; but since he's the only proper Super-Soldier who ever got made, the people after the serum don't really know that for sure. Imagine a mass-produced army of even normal people with Steve's mental qualifications. It'd be a force to be reckoned with even if your enemy deploys a handful of vastly more powerful superhumans, and all it costs the higher-ups is the replication of a simple formula, as opposed to a suit of armor for each person or the possibility that an army of gamma-powered brutes might get out of control or whatever. Brilliant on the battlefield, low cost, relatively easy to put down if they go rogue. Sounds like a damned fine deal for any country seeking a military edge.

That is a very compelling argument. Now I'd like to see it translated into an actual comic besides, "You all see Cap in action, now imagine a hundred of him!" or so on. And then anyone they inject usually just becomes a bruiser, like the guys Rogers fought.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

Excellent, that would be very cool. This is what I think they are basing it on.

Just got a hold of a copy, not in this issue.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That is a very compelling argument. Now I'd like to see it translated into an actual comic besides, "You all see Cap in action, now imagine a hundred of him!" or so on. And then anyone they inject usually just becomes a bruiser, like the guys Rogers fought.

Yeah, a true anti-Cap would be cool. If they ever did a proper, well-thought-out version of Bendis' "Kingpin of Supervillains" schtick, he'd be a prime candidate to unite the villains. A leader as charismatic and impressive on the villains' side as Cap is on the heroes'? That would be pretty damned scary.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Justice League Of America #50

I dropped this title a good four issues back...but, have continued to get it, simply because the owner of my LCS puts variants in my box whether I request them or not. (And, I'm a sucker for variants.) Either way, I planned on getting this anniversary issue...and, even though it's $4.99 price tag is off-putting, I have to admit this double-sized first part of the current story has me hooked enough to buy the next issue, also.

In this story, we have three different realities and their heroes, as the Crime Syndicate Of Amerika tries to resurrect Alexander Luthor, and the regular Justice League is warned of this by Tangent Earth's Green Lantern. While bringing back Luthor is cause for concern, in the end we learn that everything isn't as it appears. (Not sure who the villian, Omega Man, is...but, it sure seems like bad new to the Justice League.) Can't believe I'm saying it; but, I can't wait for the next issue.

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Catwoman One-Shot

It appears my enjoyment of these books depend on whether I enjoy the title they spin-off from. This is Gotham Girls, even though the title says Catwoman; and, I enjoyed it more than the previous three. (Ya gotta love Harley!) Bruce is still acting as The Insider...but, most everyone figures out it's him, and Selina is no exception by issue's end. (Lots of sexual tension between these two.) I just have to say I'm pretty bored by the Vicky Vale storyline that's been going through all these one-shots. I also wonder how similiar this Vicky is to the one who used to appear in the pages of Batman. (I'd love a background history on the character. Where was she all the years she disappeared from the Bat-books and such.)

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Commissioner Gordon One-Shot

This one surprised me. Adam Beechen writes a story that I enjoyed even MORE than the Catwoman one-shot. Heck, he made Vicky Vale even interesting! Very nicely done, and I'd read a GCPD story anytime if he writes one again.

DV8 #7

The wars have begun...and, we've only got one more issue to go. By the end, we learn that someone has died; but, the mystery of how it happened will have to wait until that final moment. Brian Wood is telling a great story with these old Image characters; and, even though I don't know a thing about any of them, I'm dying to find out more...and, hope we get more from him with them in the future. (Plus, Wood's writing is more about the characters and situation they find themselves in than the action. In this story, he handles it perfectly.)

I know hardly anyone is reading this book; but, if you have a chance to pick up a trade...or you find these issues in a bargain bin, I recommend giving it a look-see. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Stan Lee's Soldier Zero One-Shot

I'm really interested in how much Stan Lee is contributing to this title. He's the brains behind the characters, I guess...but, for this book, Paul Cornell does the writing.

The first issue isn't going to blow you away; and, the origin feels very similiar to Green Lanterns (or Power Pack). A dying alien gives wheel-chair bound Captain Stewart Trautmann special powers...a suit that looks very similiar to Iron Man's, but can miraculously appear on his body. (It's very similiar to many comics, including Millar's new Icon book for Marvel.) At times I debated even continuing with this book...but, I did like how I got to know the main character from most of this issue before he gains his newfound powers.

There is promise with this book...but, there is enough negative to also not give it a big recommendation. For that reason, I give a mixed review. I really think depending on who reads it and what they expect from a comic will determine their reactions.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Hey, it's review day!!! It was a pretty mediocre week this week and next week will likely be worse, so that sucks... but there were some gems in the bunch that I enjoyed. I decided to try a differant route since I was expecting a crappy reading week. I started with the book that I thought I'd like the least and worked my way up to the one I was looking forward to the most... that way the crappier ones aren't overshadowed by the good ones. Eh, it didn't make me enjoy anything more but it was worth a shot.

New Mutants 18 - I read this one first but it wasn't as boring as I expected. It wasn't good either, just kinda meh. I really enjoyed the oneshot that explained these villains but since then it's been boring and I'm ready for it to end. Honestly, I picked this one up, put it back and the shelf, picked it up, and over and over about 4 times before deciding to buy it. The only thing that keeps me on this title is the fact that Legion is coming soon and I've always liked Legion. His story in the first few issues is what made me interested in the title and it's gone downhill from there. This book is probably the most likely to be dropped on my list right now due to quality.

Chaos War 2 - This is the book I read second. I also put this one back and picked it back up a few times. I read the first issue but wasn't overly impressed and skimming this one didn't spark any real interest save that Galactus and Silver Surver are in the end. I decided to get it though and really, I'm still indifferent. Comics cost too much to continue buying things I'm indifferent about, I need to stop. Especially when the issues are $4 each. One scene I did enjoy was the scene with Eternity. I didn't notice that while skimming so it was a nice surprise. I don't know if I'll finish this series out or not. I'm mostly interested in the X-Men tie-in so I'll get those, but the main mini is boring me to tears really.

X-Factor 210 - Another book I'm getting bored of. I'm just really not into the whole Rahne/Rictor baby storyline. We all know it's not his and it's stupid and unlike her to pull this stunt... very much out of character... and it takes me out of the comic big time. The story that's got me interested in this book is the Pip story but that doesn't even show up here so I was disappointed.

And I know it might sound unpopular, but I don't like the Rictor gay angle. It's not that I don't like gay characters, I don't care, but I hate the idea of taking established straight characters and then making them gay... that bugs me. I know it was hinted at back in the mid to late 90's that Rictor and Shatterstar were close but he was obviously straight for years since he was first created, so all this with Shatterstar just kinda annoys me. Now Shatterstar being gay I can totally buy and kinda like because he was never shown going toward women at all in his days (I do think he was married at one point but it was an arrangement or necessary marriage or something if I'm remembering that correctly). Heck, Shatterstar's tied with Madrox for my favorite character in the book, but Rictor... it just kinda bugs me and even takes away from my enjoyment of the book.

Daredevil 511 - This issue didn't feel as good as previous DD issues but it could have been because I saw that Phaed didn't like it as much and I went in expecting not to. But honestly, it was just kinda bleh but still okay until Foggy goes after Matt. The biggest thing is that Foggy's supposed to be this almost comedic, out of shape, partner of Matt's, but then we see him scaling the humongous walls of Shadowland by hand?! I know it's rough stone or whatever but that just really doesn't seem like something Foggy should be able to do. And then the random super sexy pose by White Tiger made me think "was that necessary?" And then he's brought to Daredevil in I'm guessing the aftermath of the battle taking place in Shadowland 4's conclusion, where we see everyone defeated (including Ghost Rider, who wasn't present at the battle) and we're left with Daredevil preparing to kill Foggy... and TBC in Shadowland 5.

I don't know, it just didn't feel right really, and maybe it really is a Diggle issue. I didn't think the issue was bad (save the Spider-Foggy scene) but it just didn't feel as good as previous issues. And I was hoping to somehow see Black Tarrantula live and return to the fight. Oh well.

Shadowland: Power Man 3 - Now this was another book that I debated on picking up and put back on the shelf a few times. My reasons are that I've not been OVERLY impressed with the first two issues, though decent, and I'm mostly getting it for Iron Fist, but Iron Fist will soon be featured in Heroes for Hire so I don't really need these Power Man minis. But ultimately I decided to get it (my willpower sucks, a Green Lantern I would not make).

And unlike the other two I actually really enjoyed this issue. I liked the simple answer to how Power Man got his powers and I liked Danny in the issue. And that final scene makes me excited for next issue. It was just a really good issue I think and I find myself not only excited to see how it ends but for what's to come in the upcoming mini featuring Power Man and Iron Fist.

I'm glad my will sucks in this case... I just wish I'd have put back the other two big debates of the week which ended up being kinda crappy for me.

Batman & Robin 15 - This also was the other highlight of the week for me. I'll be blunt in saying that I have no freaking idea what the heck is going on. I don't know if I'm not retaining information from issue to issue between this title and the Return of Bruce Wayne but I don't know squat about that box that seems so important now, and I don't realy have any idea who this Hurt guy is that seems like suck a big deal. I'm not sure if the Dominoe Killer deal was tied up or not, and I just feel stupid reading this book until I get the chance to go back and reread it all and really understand it... but I love it!

Frazer Irving's art isn't my cup of tea but man does he do a creepy book and a fantastic Joker! I'm loving Damian the more I read about him and in the end when it looks like things are going south of Hurt and finally Dick tells him to turn around and there is purched (I assume) the one true Batman, Bruce Wayne. Despite the fact that I despise that he's back before his actual return issue (ala Captain America) that was a very cool and unexpected ending that made me smile. Good ending.

Good issue and I'm looking forward to rereading all these Batman & Robin comics to refresh my memory on what the heck is going on. Though, I now have no idea where this story falls in reading order to Return of Bruce Wayne, but whatever.

Brightest Day 12 - I loved last issue and came into this one setting myself up for a let down because of high expectations. It ended up holding up better than I would have expected but it's still not as good as last issue. I originally liked the Martian Manhunter story but I've grown bored with it. This issue made it more interesting but not enough to make me care. And I was really let down by the ending. I was really into the idea of Jonzz raising the Martians from the dead. I was happy for him and I thought this could really go for some interesting stories later in this series and in others, but the whole time i'm thinking "I bet it's a mind game from that chick" and low and behold, it was. So that let me down.

I did like the minor stories involved with Firestorm and DeadMan, who are my favorite stories of the series, but the next issue is entitled "Our Hawkworld at War" so I'm preparing myself to hate it. No high expectations this time

Green Lantern Corps 53 - This was pretty decent. I see that several people have already reviewed it so I won't go into much detail but I thought it was pretty good. The Weaponer, besides having a sucky name, isn't really that interesting for me but he has room to grow. I love the armor that Kyle makes for himself, it just looks cool. And I'll also add that I think Kirkham is blowing this out of the park. His... Sorank or whatever her name is, Sinestro's daughter... looks fantastic. I think his rendition is the best I've seen of her. And I like the final page where Kyle decks Sinestro. I'm not the Kyle fan that Corp is but I do feel like he's a bit of an underdog and that's even discussed in the issue, and I like it when he gets the chance to shine. I'm hoping he does well next issue if it comes to further blows.

Anyhow, good issue. Despite some claims I think Bedard is doing fantastic with this book. I just miss two of my favorite corps members... who's names I forget for some reason, but the two from Rann and Thannagar.


And that's it.

Best and Worst of the Week

Best - Shadowland: Power Man 3: This was really close between this and Batman & Robin but I felt this issue was simply more enjoyable and accessable. I'm really growing to like Power Man as a character, though I couldn't care less about the rogues in this issue. Iron Fist is a great addition to the book but, despite my Iron love, I can't help but to feel completely intrigued with Power Man. I'm eager for their next mini when all this introduction is out of the way.

Worst - New Mutants 18: - This was nearly a 3 way tie between this, Chaos War, and X-Factor, but whereas those two actually have scenes that I liked, I can't say I really liked much of this New Mutants issue. As is usually the case, it's my least liked comic of the week, possibly the month. I debate dropping it every issue but pick it up on a whim and am always disappointed with it. If not for Legion coming this likely would have been the issue I dropped it. I'll take Fraction's Uncanny over this anyday, and I can barely stand that book.

 

[Tron Bonne]

So, reading over some of your comments and such, this stuff at the ending of the Super Solider mini, about the Shadow Council or whatever, is something from Secret Avengers and will probably be followed up there?

 

[JewishHobbit]

Man, if Brubaker starts tying in Super Soldier and Captain America stuff to Secret Avengers I may drop the book. I already buy too much, I don't want to bother with more books to get a full story.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, a true anti-Cap would be cool. If they ever did a proper, well-thought-out version of Bendis' "Kingpin of Supervillains" schtick, he'd be a prime candidate to unite the villains. A leader as charismatic and impressive on the villains' side as Cap is on the heroes'? That would be pretty damned scary.

I assume this isn't to be confused with the last Anti-Cap, who showed up in CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON about 5-6 years ago, and died. Yes, the villain actually called himself "Anti-Cap". He wore a black version of his costume and conducted illegal missions out in the Middle East, or something.

Of course, it is always a challenge making new characters work, especially villains. It was awkward as hell having all of the villains follow the Hood, and he at least was a character Bendis didn't invent (even if he acted like he did). I still think that "kingpin of supervillains" role should have gone to Count Nefaria.

But, you do have a point. Other writers portray the appeal of that serum/process as simply creating an army of bruisers (without them really being bruisers that any hero above Class 5 shouldn't be able to manhandle). But trying to sell it as enhancing the mind, especially if it is used on a proper subject (someone who isn't just a brute to begin with), it could be dangerous. On the other hand, Steve Rogers has won so many impossible battles because he is the hero after all.

So, reading over some of your comments and such, this stuff at the ending of the Super Solider mini, about the Shadow Council or whatever, is something from Secret Avengers and will probably be followed up there?

All you really need to know is

Spoiler

the Shadow Council manipulated a showdown between Machinesmith and Steve Rogers in order to get a blood sample so Prof. Erskine's son/grandson could synthesize an official version of the super soldier serum at last from it for them.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Does anyone want a moody old female cat who's alergic to fleas, bleeds everywhere, leaves chunks of herself behind after she leaves a spot, and is horrible with other animals? I just went to bag my comics and she's apparently peed on my bags and boards. I had to throw them all away!

And on a side note... never pick up strays even if your wife and children beg you

On the plus side, I'm having a Reeses Klondike bar and Doctor Pepper for breakfast

 

[Frankenmation]

Does anyone want a moody old female cat who's alergic to fleas, bleeds everywhere, leaves chunks of herself behind after she leaves a spot, and is horrible with other animals? I just went to bag my comics and she's apparently peed on my bags and boards. I had to throw them all away!

....should I? Should I do it? Oh why not, before the joke gets REALLY old.

Was it THIS cat:

 

[GyLocke]

That is a very compelling argument. Now I'd like to see it translated into an actual comic besides, "You all see Cap in action, now imagine a hundred of him!" or so on.

Actually an army of caps would be total crap.
Like when in Huxley's Brave New World, they mention trying to create a society full of Alpha's, that crumbled immedatley, since nobody felt satisfied with manual labour.

In an army of caps the chain of command would collapse on the first mission, since everybody has the "super strategic brain" but different personalities, egos and different levels of loyalty.

They wouldn't just take orders.

 

[JewishHobbit]

....should I? Should I do it? Oh why not, before the joke gets REALLY old.

Was it THIS cat:

Heh... yeah, but white and brown. And the blood comes out of her paws and elbows where she bites the tar out of them.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

So, reading over some of your comments and such, this stuff at the ending of the Super Solider mini, about the Shadow Council or whatever, is something from Secret Avengers and will probably be followed up there?

Probably.

I assume this isn't to be confused with the last Anti-Cap, who showed up in CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THE FALCON about 5-6 years ago, and died. Yes, the villain actually called himself "Anti-Cap". He wore a black version of his costume and conducted illegal missions out in the Middle East, or something.

Of course, it is always a challenge making new characters work, especially villains. It was awkward as hell having all of the villains follow the Hood, and he at least was a character Bendis didn't invent (even if he acted like he did). I still think that "kingpin of supervillains" role should have gone to Count Nefaria.

But, you do have a point. Other writers portray the appeal of that serum/process as simply creating an army of bruisers (without them really being bruisers that any hero above Class 5 shouldn't be able to manhandle). But trying to sell it as enhancing the mind, especially if it is used on a proper subject (someone who isn't just a brute to begin with), it could be dangerous. On the other hand, Steve Rogers has won so many impossible battles because he is the hero after all.

True. A true evil version of Cap would probably wind up like Prometheus (the anti-Batman) over at DC. Good for an arc or two, then totally f***ed up and ultimately killed off pretty unceremoniously.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Didn't they do that with that Protocide character? I didn't read the arc but it seemed like he was pretty anti-cap.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

There have been various versions of that archetype for Cap. None of them have been very good, in my experience.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Probably.

Well, crap, I'm not reading that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't worry, I'm sure someone'll spoil it on here (hell, probably in a B/T) whenever Brubaker follows up on it in Secret Avengers. You can't miss much if you're on here as often as we are. I know like 80% of the s*** that's gone down in Hulk and I didn't read that rag for like 20 issues before picking up this week's issue for Thor.

 

[Dread]

Actually an army of caps would be total crap.
Like when in Huxley's Brave New World, they mention trying to create a society full of Alpha's, that crumbled immedatley, since nobody felt satisfied with manual labour.

In an army of caps the chain of command would collapse on the first mission, since everybody has the "super strategic brain" but different personalities, egos and different levels of loyalty.

They wouldn't just take orders.

True, which is why usually whenever there is an attempt at another super-soldier, all it really does is turn them into muscle-man who are aggressive and tough but not usually very smart or experienced. Steve Rogers was able to beat a few of them in this mini, DESPITE being reverted briefly to his 100 lb weakling form.

True. A true evil version of Cap would probably wind up like Prometheus (the anti-Batman) over at DC. Good for an arc or two, then totally f***ed up and ultimately killed off pretty unceremoniously.

Taskmaster is the character closest to Prometheus, and he debuted the same time as Deathstroke. He has all the skills and experience to be a similar threat. What probably holds him back is his own operating style. He's a for-hire merc, with no ambition of his own, who always cuts and runs rather than face arrest. Some might say that's perfectly professional and even smart, but it doesn't impress anyone. The Hood in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE for instance dismissed him for that tendency, and even Norman Osborn exploited that, feeling Taskmaster was a fine grunt to have at one's side who'd be thrilled just for a half chance at the big table. How did SIEGE end? Taskmaster did what he always does: cut and run. Osborn and Hood basically went down screaming. Which villains are higher profile? I rest my case. Sadly, while Fred Van Lente is doing a good job, the only way Taskmaster is treated seriously by readers is probably if he became a megalomaniac, which wouldn't fit him.

That, or he did what Deathstroke did; defeat big profile characters in books that actually matter and count and draw attention, more than once. Of course, it was easier to do that in the 80's than it is now, when the volume of books dilutes importance of each by sheer numbers.

Didn't they do that with that Protocide character? I didn't read the arc but it seemed like he was pretty anti-cap.

Basically. Protocide was supposedly involved with the super soldier process in the 1940's, but something happened and he was lost in stasis or something. AIM found him and brainwashed him into thinking they were the good guys and Rogers wasn't. He went after Rogers naturally, but eventually learned he'd been lied to and manipulated. He was seemingly killed in an explosion, but survived and escaped, into limbo.

Like virtually every single super-soldier attempt, he was probably stronger physically than Rogers, but couldn't beat him in a fight outright.

There have been various versions of that archetype for Cap. None of them have been very good, in my experience.

The problem is they rarely are handled properly in terms of writing, as well as they are often killed or removed from the stage outright, never to return. To this day many writers and editors fail to understand that many characters who are big or at least recognizable now didn't just start out with a brilliant story and were only featured in great stories thereafter. Many of them, especially villains, were in a lot of crap. But they kept popping up until they did land in a good story.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I think Kraven's a great example of that. I don't think I've liked a single Kraven story until his Last Hunt. That arc defined him as a great villain.

 

[fifthfiend]

The third go-to plot for Cap was toying with reviving Bucky. That'd happened a few times, a fact Brubaker himself cited in a few interviews. It usually was always a robot or an illusion or something. He simply did it for real, stuck with it and is having it play out to logical conclusions. Amazingly, that sort of development is still rare in many superhero comics.

But, yeah, WWII stuff or super-soldier variants come up a lot in Cap stories. I do get tired of seeing them. This one even had BOTH! Is there any way to write a Captain America story that doesn't try to stretch a memory back to the 40's or involve people who could get perfectly powerful MGH and make themselves strong enough to fight Wolverine or an entire team would settle for a super soldier serum?

Hell, just your standard imitation Stark armor can make you more powerful than Captain America. Of course, Stark fights people who want to use his tech a damn lot, so much that Fred Van Lente half mocked it in IRON MAN LEGACY, where he basically had Radioactive Man say, "If you don't want anyone to use your technology, stop inventing or using it and go live in the mountains as a monk, otherwise STOP YER WHINING," in so many words.

I perhaps wouldn't mind all the imitation super-soldier stories if anything ever came of any of the knock-off Cap's who show up. Aside for John Walker, they always fade away (Protocide) or die (GI Max, Anti-Cap, etc.). To be fair to Brubaker, in THE MARVELS PROJECT, he implied that the super soldier serum was at least partially derived from studying blood samples from John Steele, who is a superhuman empowered by unknown means (and could be a mutant; even in his Golden Age stories, the source of his power was never revealed). So Brubaker is trying to do a definitive story, and the Shadow Council is seeking to not merely zonk up someone on 'roids, but to duplicate Rogers in terms of the type of person he was before. Granted, this has also been done before; The Colonel from ULTIMATES 2 was basically a Muslim version of this from Mark Millar. Even Protocide was basically tricked and brainwashed by AIM into being who he was; he wasn't genuinely bad. Still, the irony is in trying to re-create the super soldier, many experiments have created specimens that were far more powerful, or dangerous. In the end of course, Rogers is the hero he is for who he is; being a super-soldier just gives him an option to do stuff physically.

It seems I keep bringing up Protocide, and perhaps for two stupid reasons. The first is I never minded his design, even though he owes a lot to the Red Guardian from Russia. The second is his name reminds me of Proto-Man from the MEGAMAN franchise. Those are two completely stupid reasons to remember a one note antagonist character, but it is what it is. Although he was a 90's guy who wanted to be "kewl" by having the last bit of the word "homicide" in his name, like Spidercide (who was one of the crappiest parts in an already crappy story, the 90's Clone Saga).

I could see an argument for the Super Soldier serum versus a lot of other attempts to create superpeople in the case of like, large-scale organizations that presumably want to produce superpeople on the level of an army division. The goal is to consistently produce people who are at a reasonably manageable level of power; most methods of creating superpeople result in who the **** even knows what.

Of course MGH as currently written just blows a huge hole in that since afaik it pretty effectively is the poor-man's super soldier serum, which is actually even better for your hypothetical evil organization's purpose since you could just give your disposable mooks enough of a dose for a given mission and then they're back down to normal by the time they get back to base and you don't have to deal with an underground bunker full of superpowered jerks punching holes in your lead radiation shielding and ****. Marvel effectively went ahead and recreated the SSS while trying to pretend they haven't.

 

[Dread]

I think Kraven's a great example of that. I don't think I've liked a single Kraven story until his Last Hunt. That arc defined him as a great villain.

It is hard to think of any villain who wasn't involved in at least quite a few stinkers. Magneto was actually in quite a few until the Claremont era redefined him. It is hard for modern fans to imagine Magneto cackling like a Republic Serial villain and opposing Namor and Mr. Fantastic, but it happened.

I could see an argument for the Super Soldier serum versus a lot of other attempts to create superpeople in the case of like, large-scale organizations that presumably want to produce superpeople on the level of an army division. The goal is to consistently produce people who are at a reasonably manageable level of power; most methods of creating superpeople result in who the **** even knows what.

Of course MGH as currently written just blows a huge hole in that since afaik it pretty effectively is the poor-man's super soldier serum, which is actually even better for your hypothetical evil organization's purpose since you could just give your disposable mooks enough of a dose for a given mission and then they're back down to normal by the time they get back to base and you don't have to deal with an underground bunker full of superpowered jerks punching holes in your lead radiation shielding and ****. Marvel effectively went ahead and recreated the SSS while trying to pretend they haven't.

It makes little sense that it is called "mutant growth hormone" since many times it isn't derived from an actual mutant. Wouldn't "superhuman growth hormone" made more sense? But, that's what happens when all an editor says is, "Yes, Mr. Bendis, sir."

To be fair, the effects of MGH on people can be random. Sometimes they can be fatal. But on the whole, I do agree with you. I mean, we literally had a story where Wolverine confronted the corrupt new CEO of DAMAGE CONTROL who supplied MGH to Nitro that allowed him to cause Stamford, and what'd he do? Shoot himself up full of it himself to fight Wolverine one on one. And hey, he actually survived, despite losing the fight (and is in one piece circa some ASM issues). Not too shabby.