Bought/Thought for Dec. 15 - Spoilers

[hippie_hunter]

It had Peter Parker miss his wedding because some fat man fell on him.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Fat people are like a disease

 

[JewishHobbit]

I could agree with that list...except One Moment In Time. I really liked those four issues; but, I also understand some people (JH..cough, cough) who would still have trouble reading it. That story did what it was suppose to accomplish, and for those who complain about some holes still being in the past...well, you can't fit everything into four issues.

No but you can fit everything into 20 years of issues... but apparently that's not good enough. These four issues are now the past 20 years

And I know exactly what it accomplished... it ruined 20 years of continuity and showed us fans that Marvel has no respect for the past of their characters and will ignore or erase anything written at anypoint on a whim.

Aka... they're willing to crap on anything and anyone without respect to the stories or creators that's come before them. Oh, and they'll overcharge you while doing it. People who buy into OMD/OMIT type of stories are, to me, the very definition of a "sucker."

 

[Phaedrus45]

No but you can fit everything into 20 years of issues... but apparently that's not good enough. These four issues are now the past 20 years

And I know exactly what it accomplished... it ruined 20 years of continuity and showed us fans that Marvel has no respect for the past of their characters and will ignore or erase anything written at anypoint on a whim.

Aka... they're willing to crap on anything and anyone without respect to the stories or creators that's come before them. Oh, and they'll overcharge you while doing it. People who buy into OMD/OMIT type of stories are, to me, the very definition of a "sucker."

It did not ruin 20 years of continuity at all. Everything that happened still happened; but, now we have some things that have changed in that history from the moment of OMD to today. Everything you read would have to happen in order for OMD to happen.

Heck, the events in the Clone Saga was more monumental than this when it was going on. Back then, everything you believed was Peter Parker after issues in the early 100's to today was all supposedly a clone! The only difference with OMD is that we have the internet, where people can make a bigger deal out of things than EVER before. Heck, we're FILLED with comic companies constantly changing what's happened in the past. The Beyonder is now supposedly a mutant, there was a mutant team before the New X-Men from the 80's that all died, except for Vulcan, recently in a DC comic, one character's history was COMPLETELY re-written, the Legion of Superheroes history is currently being COMPLETELY rewritten...it's always happened, and it will continue to happen.

With OMIT, Marvel responded to what fans had been griping about: Letting them finally know how the old stories currently fit into everyone's current memories. It does not say "nothing you read before didn't happen," but, that "from this moment in Peter's life, these are the things that have changed in his life that you might be questioning now." (And, to me, this is WAY better than Brubaker's X-Men history change or Bendis' Beyonder change.)

JH, I know you hate this...but, face it. Spidey stories had been pretty stagnant for some time. They'd get writer after different writer, and (for me at least), I was getting pretty friggin' bored with Peter's life. (And, speaking of change, they brought Aunt Friggin' May back from the dead, changing everything you thought you knew before.) These past couple years, I finally look forward to Spidey. Sure, a great writer could have written some good stories with a married Peter Parker...or gotten him divorced or something (which had been somewhat tried by another writer when him and MJ broke up for a time being...which didn't work for me, either); but, this took care of many things in one BOLD stroke. We not only got Peter's VERY boring marriage desolved, but his great cast of characters...and a few new ones...got to come back, too.

Momma told us all many years ago that things change. It's part of growing up. Sure, you'll have a grieving process; but, for those still stuck on OMD, I think it's time for a serious intervention. If need be, maybe we can get Dan Slott and a bunch of us Hypers to come to your house and help you through this process.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I was going to respond to all of this in detail but figured why bother? I'll just touch a few points.

It did not ruin 20 years of continuity at all. Everything that happened still happened; but, now we have some things that have changed in that history from the moment of OMD to today. Everything you read would have to happen in order for OMD to happen.

Yes, and people will keep saying this and I will KEEP say it's crap. When I have to edit comics in my head (because living together versus Married changes a lot more than people want to say) then it's just stupid and yes, it's 20 years needlessly altered and tainted. It makes no difference if you liked how those 20 years played out or not.

Also in addition to the marraige, they changed the OTHER powers and last I heard, unless they're going back on what was said on this too, they did away with the pregnancy during the Clone Saga as well.

Heck, the events in the Clone Saga was more monumental than this when it was going on. Back then, everything you believed was Peter Parker after issues in the early 100's to today was all supposedly a clone! The only difference with OMD is that we have the internet, where people can make a bigger deal out of things than EVER before.

And I despised that as well at the time. Trust me, my love of the Clone Saga comes with the knowledge that it was fixed... same as my love of Spider-Man would likely come back if OMD were fixed but sadly it won't while Quesada and Slott are in charge of the book.

With OMIT, Marvel responded to what fans had been griping about: Letting them finally know how the old stories currently fit into everyone's current memories. It does not say "nothing you read before didn't happen," but, that "from this moment in Peter's life, these are the things that have changed in his life that you might be questioning now." (And, to me, this is WAY better than Brubaker's X-Men history change or Bendis' Beyonder change.)

So a complete changing of history is better than an inclusion between panels or previously unmentioned information? Wow.

And here's my biggest gripe with OMIT itself... despite ruining a great comic in the wedding issue, it also screws up history. Mephisto makes it so that the wedding never happened and thus they would never make the deal with him. In Marvel science, this would then diverge into an alternate reality (one married and one if they were never married) and obviously the rest of the 616 comics would still be in the married universe. However, never married is still placed in the 616 despite the changing of the past and it not making sense with the way Marvel Comics work. But then again, Marvel is making up crap and being inconsistent with character and now even how their universe works to make OMD work.

JH, I know you hate this...but, face it. Spidey stories had been pretty stagnant for some time.

That's your opinion. I disagree 100%. From the time Straczynski came on until Back in Black was gold in my opinion. The only rough spot was the Gwen/Norman reveal and even Sins Past was good save that aspect of it. If they were Gwen and Peter's kids it'd have been a great story (as Straczynski originally intended).

but, this took care of many things in one BOLD stroke. We not only got Peter's VERY boring marriage desolved, but his great cast of characters...and a few new ones...got to come back, too.

And this reminds me that you've already drank the cool-aid Marvel pitches during their cultish "OMD is okay" meetings. You're using their lingo that most of us make fun of. I'm waiting for you to say "New and Innovative" and "Things will never be the same" in regular conversation

Momma told us all many years ago that things change. It's part of growing up. Sure, you'll have a grieving process; but, for those still stuck on OMD, I think it's time for a serious intervention. If need be, maybe we can get Dan Slott and a bunch of us Hypers to come to your house and help you through this process.

And maybe they can get you to accept that the Beyonder is and always was an Inhuman and that it was a great idea and well executed and that you should just shut up about it and accept how fantastic it is!

 

[Themanofbat]

While you have to edit 22 years pf comics, I have to edit 25 years of comics when I see Spider-Man and/or Peter Parker interact with Mary Jane all the while pretending that she knows he's really Spider-Man... and there are LOTS of comics where IF she REALLY knew, then she was a much greater actress in her youth than in her "Secret Hospital" days...

When new storylines are introduced, many old readers have to "alter" their past books... it's the nature of comic book reading... I know that YOU hate to do this if you're reading those 20 years of comics, but major change does this from time to time... like the MJ reveal did for me.

And like Phaedrus45 said, in life comes change... so when the party intervention happens, I'll bring some chips to your place...
All-Dressed? Dill Pickle?
Your choice.

 

[JewishHobbit]

While you have to edit 22 years pf comics, I have to edit 25 years of comics when I see Spider-Man and/or Peter Parker interact with Mary Jane all the while pretending that she knows he's really Spider-Man... and there are LOTS of comics where IF she REALLY knew, then she was a much greater actress in her youth than in her "Secret Hospital" days...

There's a difference between someone keeping a secret (even if the reveal is eyeroll worthy - much like her knowing about Gwen and Norman) and saying twenty years of marriage never actually happened. BIG difference! The only real comparison to it is DC's Crisis stuff (from what I hear).

And like Phaedrus45 said, in life comes change... so when the party intervention happens, I'll bring some chips to your place...
All-Dressed? Dill Pickle?
Your choice.

So are pickles your cult's version of kool-aid? In that case I'll quote the great Deadpool psycho mentality from Funeral For a Freak and say "No Pickles no Pickles no Pickles!"

 

[Doc Destruction]

Hobbit - Krona was the main baddie in the amazing JLA/Avengers series. He got turned into a big cosmic egg and only recently broke out. Hence, he's pissed.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I was going to respond to all of this in detail but figured why bother? I'll just touch a few points.

HEY! Get your hand off my point!!!

Yes, and people will keep saying this and I will KEEP say it's crap. When I have to edit comics in my head (because living together versus Married changes a lot more than people want to say) then it's just stupid and yes, it's 20 years needlessly altered and tainted. It makes no difference if you liked how those 20 years played out or not.

No, those 20 years are NOT tainted. It's only in your mind that they are. Peter Parker does NOT get to OMD without everything that happened before, plain and simple. And, this is the main concept that I think keeps tripping up people. Everything that happened before happened. OMIT creates a different reality...YES...in the minds of everyone else to what then happened in the past. But, in the true past, it's what you'll read.

If you go with the idea that the past 20 years never happened...then, you have to say OMD never happened. If OMD never happened...then, what's everyone complaining about???

Also in addition to the marraige, they changed the OTHER powers and last I heard, unless they're going back on what was said on this too, they did away with the pregnancy during the Clone Saga as well.

Good point...and, one of the BEST reasons for embracing OMD!!! For me, The Other was one of the worst Spidey stories of all time (I still remember that thing just dragging on and on and on), and they did not need to change Spidey's powers to make him more interesting. (It wasn't the powers that many of us wanted changed. We wanted the comic to be good...like it used to be in the 80's.)

And I despised that as well at the time. Trust me, my love of the Clone Saga comes with the knowledge that it was fixed... same as my love of Spider-Man would likely come back if OMD were fixed but sadly it won't while Quesada and Slott are in charge of the book.

To me, the baby and everything that happened in the Clone Saga still holds up. Proof of that is with the recent death and rebirth of Kaine. You get no Kaine without the Clone Saga. And, in my mind, that baby is still out there!



So a complete changing of history is better than an inclusion between panels or previously unmentioned information? Wow.

And here's my biggest gripe with OMIT itself... despite ruining a great comic in the wedding issue, it also screws up history. Mephisto makes it so that the wedding never happened and thus they would never make the deal with him. In Marvel science, this would then diverge into an alternate reality (one married and one if they were never married) and obviously the rest of the 616 comics would still be in the married universe. However, never married is still placed in the 616 despite the changing of the past and it not making sense with the way Marvel Comics work. But then again, Marvel is making up crap and being inconsistent with character and now even how their universe works to make OMD work.

That's your opinion. I disagree 100%. From the time Straczynski came on until Back in Black was gold in my opinion. The only rough spot was the Gwen/Norman reveal and even Sins Past was good save that aspect of it. If they were Gwen and Peter's kids it'd have been a great story (as Straczynski originally intended).

Yep, this is all my dearest opinion. (I think that's why I stuck a "for me" somewhere in my long rant.) There were some things I liked in Spidey, but it still always somewhere in the middle of my reading list of interest...much like the X-Men titles are nowadays. (BOY, would I cherish a OMD treatment to THOSE books!!!! Maybe that's why I like Claremont's X-Men Forever so much.)

And this reminds me that you've already drank the cool-aid Marvel pitches during their cultish "OMD is okay" meetings. You're using their lingo that most of us make fun of. I'm waiting for you to say "New and Innovative" and "Things will never be the same" in regular conversation

Not the Marvel pitches...it's just how I feel about it all. And, as I point out, it happens ALL the time. (Let's not forget Tony Stark being turned young again...and, then after Heroes Reborn, he somehow returns to normal with no mention of his younger self EVER again. GOD, imagine the stink if the we had The Hype back then to everything that happened with THAT!)

And maybe they can get you to accept that the Beyonder is and always was an Inhuman and that it was a great idea and well executed and that you should just shut up about it and accept how fantastic it is!

It's not accepting something as whether it's fantastic or not. It's the point that 1) those 20 years STILL happened and 2) this crap happens all the time; but, since it's the much beloved Spider-Man, people get more up-in-arms about it. Spidey is very much a person from our childhood...and, depending on your age, as you admit, your love for it is different than others who remember what I consider the "good old days" before MJ got married to Peter.

Obviously it's your choice to ever read Spidey again, or anything that is linked to him (cough, Spider-Girl, cough) ... but, all I'm saying is the argument is still being blown out of preportion. Reading comics is all about having to deal with the changes that come along to try and reinvigorate sales. (And, this is what the comic industry REALLY is about..the ALL-MIGHTY DOLLAR!) I'd sooner have change than stagnation. Stagnation is a monster from the 60's-80's...and, boy did it SUCK! (Take this for example. As a kid, I LOVED big time wrestling...but, BOY, did I hate that Hulk Hogan would NEVER give up that belt! And, thinking back, those top wrestlers held onto those belts FOREVER. That's why, in my memory, I loved Wrestlemania 4! We FINALLY had a new wrestler, and Hogan's 3 years of stagnation were going to be behind us.)

With everything nowadays, you have to introduce something new, or the casual reader will go away. But, it also has to include some touches of the past for the loyal people, too. Why am I finding myself bored with most video games? It's the same kind of game, over and over and over again. Why was Guitar Hero so dang popular? It was finally something NEW. (Now, you just don't see the popularity that it held for so long. It's all "motion control" today.) MJ isn't gone...the past still had to happen the way it did...but, change came "in one fell swoop!" (Maybe that's the problem with it all...you never had time to grieve properly. With our intervention, we can hold a mock funeral.)

 

[JewishHobbit]

No, those 20 years are NOT tainted. It's only in your mind that they are. Peter Parker does NOT get to OMD without everything that happened before, plain and simple. And, this is the main concept that I think keeps tripping up people. Everything that happened before happened. OMIT creates a different reality...YES...in the minds of everyone else to what then happened in the past. But, in the true past, it's what you'll read.

See, this is where I don't understand your mindset. You apparently think of Spider-Man's history as a story in your mind whereas I love to read the actual comics that physically have Spider-Man stating things like "My wife is at home" and "I love my wife... did I mention I love my wife?" and "I think it was in the vows" and that kind of stuff. When I go back and pick up issues of Amazing Spider-Man and read a line like that suddenly I have to edit it out in my mind to "My live-in girlfriend is at home" and "I love my live-in girlfriend" and you can't even edit the last line as there were no vows. OMD HAS tainted 20 years of printed Spider-Man history. He DIDN'T say those things now. If you want to ignore the paper then sure, everything's dandy, but I'm not a fan of that.

And the alternate reality did happen. It's no different from Age of Apocalypse. Legion went back and changed one thing (killing Xavier) and then an alternate reality came to be. It is now a separate universe from the 616. In theory it was the same that was broken and was fixed, but they are separate since they are both still running separately. Spider-Man went through the exact same type of thing and yet, he still molds in with the rest of the Marvel 616.

It's basic Marvel science. When you alter the past you create a divergent alternate future. It's how it's always been and how it should be. To ignore that is poor writing and planning on Marvel's part. By Marvel science the entire Marvel Universe shifted with OMD to go along with it and we SHOULD now be reading the adventures of the 617 or whatever... and the 616 should still be going without OMD. That's how the comics work. Marvel just ignored that though.

Good point...and, one of the BEST reasons for embracing OMD!!! For me, The Other was one of the worst Spidey stories of all time (I still remember that thing just dragging on and on and on), and they did not need to change Spidey's powers to make him more interesting. (It wasn't the powers that many of us wanted changed. We wanted the comic to be good...like it used to be in the 80's.)

Spider-Man's been just as good in the 90's and most of the 00's than in the 80's... but again, it's all subjective. For the current Marvel people to decide that the key aspect of Spider-Man during those later two decades was unnecessary and undo it was - well, dickish to use a word I don't typically use. If they wanted to please themselves and older fans they had other ways to do it.

And for the record, I really enjoyed The Other. It showed Spider-Man in a light of respect that's been missing during OMD (until the past couple of issues where it's almost unnaturally thrown at us - poorly written in my opinion), particularly with the respect of his passing. And his powers weren't changed, he just gained new ones... and most of which I actually liked. I liked the night vision and the sticking to his back and other parts of his body. The webbing vibrations were great. All that fits him very well. The rebirth thing was a one trick pony so it's over and done and doesn't matter anyway. The stingers were the oddest but I was under the impression they were also a one trick pony until I think it was Peter David used them again.

And the organic webbing wasn't even from The Other, though people loop it in there. That came from Disassembled. I like the webshooters myself but it made sense for him to have organic webbing so I didn't mind. That was another thing OMD changed with no explanation. And if you complain about organtics I can just throw the accept change speach you gave me.

It's not accepting something as whether it's fantastic or not. It's the point that 1) those 20 years STILL happened

Though not the way the actual comics read them to have happened

and 2) this crap happens all the time; but, since it's the much beloved Spider-Man, people get more up-in-arms about it. Spidey is very much a person from our childhood...and, depending on your age, as you admit, your love for it is different than others who remember what I consider the "good old days" before MJ got married to Peter.

When they alter an entire generation's reading experiences... yeah, I say that's a good reason for people to get up-in-arms about it. It's like the people who got up-in-arms over the Gwen Stacy/Norman Osborn thing. Were they justified in disliking that story or should they have just accepted that things change and now Gwen slept around? Did you accept that with a shrug and read the story for how good it really was hidden beneath that new information? If memory serves I don't think you did, but I could be wrong.

Obviously it's your choice to ever read Spidey again, or anything that is linked to him (cough, Spider-Girl, cough) ... but, all I'm saying is the argument is still being blown out of preportion.

I don't think it's as blown out of preportion as people are choosing not to see it for the problem it is (because they got their way for lack of better reasonings). Glass half full, glass half empty.

Reading comics is all about having to deal with the changes that come along to try and reinvigorate sales. (And, this is what the comic industry REALLY is about..the ALL-MIGHTY DOLLAR!) With everything nowadays, you have to introduce something new, or the casual reader will go away. But, it also has to include some touches of the past for the loyal people, too.

Honestly, I agree with you here. They are going to change and do whatever they can to make it "fresh and new" or "good" or "funny" despite fans's feelings (as Slott's said before) and due to this I can no longer feel invested in the books like I was prior to OMD. Any comic book really. I look negatively on the entire industry following OMD because it made me stop loving the characters. Each character and title is just a name on a paper for money hungry businessmen to screw with for dollars. It's ruined the entire industry for me.

I think this is why I've gone more toward reading novels over the past couple of years. It's a set story and the writer shows a lot of care for what they do and have done. In comics different creaters and bigwigs come in not caring a lick about what's come before them and do what THEY want to see. I may like what's going on in... say... Green Lantern right now, but it might all be undone in a few years for the sake of the next writer... so why get invested and excited for what's going on now? I read it all out of habit and hope that I'm wrong but to be honest, I know I'm not and I dont see me reading comics into my old or even middle age like I used to. I mean, really, what is there to keep me when what I'm reading won't matter in a few years?

MJ isn't gone...the past still had to happen the way it did...but, change came "in one fell swoop!" (Maybe that's the problem with it all...you never had time to grieve properly. With our intervention, we can hold a mock funeral.)

I'd rather her be gone and dead than what we have now. That way Peter could remember his time with her how it was while moving forward. Not grieving over a past that never happened.

 

[Phaedrus45]

See, this is where I don't understand your mindset. You apparently think of Spider-Man's history as a story in your mind whereas I love to read the actual comics that physically have Spider-Man stating things like "My wife is at home" and "I love my wife... did I mention I love my wife?" and "I think it was in the vows" and that kind of stuff. When I go back and pick up issues of Amazing Spider-Man and read a line like that suddenly I have to edit it out in my mind to "My live-in girlfriend is at home" and "I love my live-in girlfriend" and you can't even edit the last line as there were no vows. OMD HAS tainted 20 years of printed Spider-Man history. He DIDN'T say those things now. If you want to ignore the paper then sure, everything's dandy, but I'm not a fan of that.

Whereas you "don't understand [my] mindset," I completely understand yours. I can only say it so many times...but, I'll repeat it again. Everything that happened before OMD still happened. Unlike Peter, MJ, and everyone in the 616, we are in on the "big secret." Everything that we saw in OMIT happened because of OMD, and you don't get to OMD unless you go through those 20 years of Spidey history. It does not negate a dang thing. (To me, I see the complete logic in this.)

I think there is an alternate factor in your not liking this new (well, not really new any more, huh?) direction for Spidey...and, it shows in the above response. JH, you are a man who takes pride in his marriage and relationship with your wife; and, for whatever reason, you are taking Peter's nullification of his marriage as a complete slap in the face. You are bringing YOUR history and YOUR feelings into your reaction to OMD.

Now, as you know, I'm a divorced man...and, I'm not really HUGE on marriage. I think one reason that people bring up the divorce rate being so huge nowadays compared to our parents and those before them is that many believed that even though you might be unhappy in your relationship, you "suffered through it." I remember my ex's parents really chewing me out, and saying something to the effect of "marriage isn't about being happy, it's about living up to the commitment you made." And, I looked at their relationship as not necessarily about happiness; but, it's what the Catholic Church expected of them. So...because of my feelings, I might be more inclined to enjoy a single Peter...by any means necessary. I found their relationship stagnant...and, writer after writer just seemed to come up with the same storylines between them. (This isn't to say they weren't happy...this is to say I wasn't happy with reading their boring relationship.)

And the alternate reality did happen. It's no different from Age of Apocalypse. Legion went back and changed one thing (killing Xavier) and then an alternate reality came to be. It is now a separate universe from the 616. In theory it was the same that was broken and was fixed, but they are separate since they are both still running separately. Spider-Man went through the exact same type of thing and yet, he still molds in with the rest of the Marvel 616.

That's a great point you make. The X-Men today would not be the same if they didn't go through Age Of Apocalypse...even though that will never happen. Spidey could not be going through what he went through is the past 20 years didn't happen. (In this way, Age Of Apocalypse is 616. Without Age, you have no Nate...or Sugar Man. It's an alternate reality AND 616 history.) For me, that point only proves what I've been saying.

It's basic Marvel science. When you alter the past you create a divergent alternate future. It's how it's always been and how it should be. To ignore that is poor writing and planning on Marvel's part. By Marvel science the entire Marvel Universe shifted with OMD to go along with it and we SHOULD now be reading the adventures of the 617 or whatever... and the 616 should still be going without OMD. That's how the comics work. Marvel just ignored that though.

But, then with that logic, we are really up to Marvel Universe 1041...or something like that...by now. Look at all the times we've had alternate realities and going back in time, with the heroes of the 616 returning to what we see now: Age Of Apocalypse, Heroes Reborn, Avengers Forever. The list could go on and on and on. The F4 have time traveled more than enough times! Every time Kang comes to fight the Avengers, it should be considered an alternate timeline.

And for the record, I really enjoyed The Other. It showed Spider-Man in a light of respect that's been missing during OMD (until the past couple of issues where it's almost unnaturally thrown at us - poorly written in my opinion), particularly with the respect of his passing. And his powers weren't changed, he just gained new ones... and most of which I actually liked. I liked the night vision and the sticking to his back and other parts of his body. The webbing vibrations were great. All that fits him very well. The rebirth thing was a one trick pony so it's over and done and doesn't matter anyway. The stingers were the oddest but I was under the impression they were also a one trick pony until I think it was Peter David used them again.

And, this just goes to show the other point that many people continue to make. One person's lemons is another person's lemonade. You love The Other and I hated it with a passion. The difference? I didn't stomp my feet and say, "I'm done completely with Spider-Man until they put things back to normal!!!!" I accept that change is going to happen, whether I like it or not. I'm just lucky that I like the change this time...but, even if I didn't, I'm still reading one of my favorite characters.

And the organic webbing wasn't even from The Other, though people loop it in there. That came from Disassembled. I like the webshooters myself but it made sense for him to have organic webbing so I didn't mind. That was another thing OMD changed with no explanation. And if you complain about organtics I can just throw the accept change speach you gave me.

Yep, you could do that...and, I'm actually responding to each paragraph before reading the next; so, the above what I wrote kind of shows how I did "accept change." I'll rarely be hypocritical in my opinions. (As you know, I probably hated The Beyonder story that Bendis wrote more than any other moment in the past 10 years...but, I don't let that effect me enjoying future or past stories. I don't read "Secret War" and now feel like my reading pleasure is all changed now. In fact, my lack of enjoyment of those old comics comes from being spoiled by the great storytelling we have today. Many of those old comics just don't have the same feel that they used to...and, that all points to the comic industry realizing they have to change their styles for today's audience.)

When they alter an entire generation's reading experiences... yeah, I say that's a good reason for people to get up-in-arms about it. It's like the people who got up-in-arms over the Gwen Stacy/Norman Osborn thing. Were they justified in disliking that story or should they have just accepted that things change and now Gwen slept around? Did you accept that with a shrug and read the story for how good it really was hidden beneath that new information? If memory serves I don't think you did, but I could be wrong.

I didn't like that storyline...it had an "icky" feel to it. It made you want to severely scrub all the taint of it off your body after reading it. BUT, it didn't change my reaction to past or future stories.

Now, you've had people tell you that they LOVED Spidey before he got hooked up with MJ; but, you've admitted that you were pretty much introduced to Spidey WHEN he hooked up with MJ. So, much of your Spidey-love comes from that. (Plus, as I mentioned above, I think you have a mental link with Peter's relationship with your own with Mrs. JH.) If we had the internet back then and everyone was saying, "Oh, I am not reading Spidey any more until this stupid marriage is over," you probably be in my seat trying to talk down the complainers.

I don't think it's as blown out of preportion as people are choosing not to see it for the problem it is (because they got their way for lack of better reasonings). Glass half full, glass half empty.

This is not why the current fans of Spidey are enjoying the book. Many who like the current direction STILL complained about OMD. There are numerous factors for people to like or dislike it. As I've pointed out, I think there are a few factors beyond just OMD why you do not like Spidey's current direction. To repeat myself:

*HUGE FACTOR..in my mind..is where YOU are in your life, and how you associate Spidey to it. You're a devoted husband who finds marriage sacred. You made a promise before GOD, and nobody would ever destroy that...least of all a demon, like Mephisto. Your marriage...your religion...and, your reaction to all that might be the biggest factor I see.

*Another HUGE FACTOR is the internet. When we get online and start typing out our responses to something that upsets us...two things either happen. A) It lets us speak our mind, get something off our chest, and we can then go on with our lives (which I believe is the healthiest of reactions), or B) it gets even MORE intensified, we'll keep badgering on and on and on about it, and we let it dictate our lives more than heal the wound. Spidey's OMD is not the first time this has happened. I remember when I first got on The Hype, there was someone who CONSTANTLY complained about Bendis killing off Ant-Man, his favorite character. (Of course, many on here loved to egg the guy on with any mention of that...which would ALWAYS get a reaction.)

I really, really believe that if not for the internet, a LOT of the complainers would have stopped complaining about OMD by now. Sure, it would come up in conversations...just as The Clone Saga still comes up today. But, the intensity isn't there.

*It's all in how you look at it. To me, it's logical in the assumption that everything that happened in the past 20 years HAS to hold up. You don't get from Point A to Point B without that. It's all Spidey history.

Honestly, I agree with you here. They are going to change and do whatever they can to make it "fresh and new" or "good" or "funny" despite fans's feelings (as Slott's said before) and due to this I can no longer feel invested in the books like I was prior to OMD. Any comic book really. I look negatively on the entire industry following OMD because it made me stop loving the characters. Each character and title is just a name on a paper for money hungry businessmen to screw with for dollars. It's ruined the entire industry for me.

I think this is why I've gone more toward reading novels over the past couple of years. It's a set story and the writer shows a lot of care for what they do and have done. In comics different creaters and bigwigs come in not caring a lick about what's come before them and do what THEY want to see. I may like what's going on in... say... Green Lantern right now, but it might all be undone in a few years for the sake of the next writer... so why get invested and excited for what's going on now? I read it all out of habit and hope that I'm wrong but to be honest, I know I'm not and I dont see me reading comics into my old or even middle age like I used to. I mean, really, what is there to keep me when what I'm reading won't matter in a few years?



I'd rather her be gone and dead than what we have now. That way Peter could remember his time with her how it was while moving forward. Not grieving over a past that never happened.

I think this reaction just continues to show the true reason you are so upset with OMD. This is like Therapy Breakthough, JH. It's not about the story...for if it was, how could you say "due to this I can no longer feel invested in the books like I was prior to OMD. Any comic book really." I think I've shown that these type of changes have been happening frequently enough in the 20 years prior to OMD...so, there is something profound in you that made OMD the breaking point. JH, seriously, I don't think it's about OMD.

When I went to marriage counceling, I learned sooo much about myself. One point is that "Said Situation doesn't make you feel a certain way...YOU make yourself feel a certain way." OMD doesn't make you dislike the comic industry to feel this way, but there is something you are bringing into it that is causing this reaction from you. OMD is just a comic. It's just a very short moment in a LONG history of Spidey comics..and, even though you feel like it's changed 20 years of Spidey history, it's all in the perception. For some reason, this effects you a great deal. If you really search yourself, you could get some true enlightenment. From there will come healing.

I joke about much of what I talk about, and I don't take anything too seriously. (The whole Intervention was that aspect.) But, maybe there is something in truth about that. At one time, I gave up comics. I was in a new relationship...I was in love...and, in truth, it wasn't comics that had changed, but it was me. Eventually, after the shine of the new relationship wears off, those comics started calling me back; and, then comics became a hardship on my relationship. Again, it isn't the comics that really cause it, but the feelings involved in how my ex and I looked at those comics. (It's a lot of "if you care about me, you wouldn't waste your money on something so childish." And, for me, it was "I want to reclaim some of my past...and, because of that past, comics provided an escape.")

It's not the comics...it's not the storylines...that effect our attitudes. It's us.

OK, I REALLY went into a different direction with this, and I hope you don't mind that I kind of got real personal with things. It's how I feel about it, and figure you respect my opinion.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Whereas you "don't understand [my] mindset," I completely understand yours. I can only say it so many times...but, I'll repeat it again. Everything that happened before OMD still happened. Unlike Peter, MJ, and everyone in the 616, we are in on the "big secret." Everything that we saw in OMIT happened because of OMD, and you don't get to OMD unless you go through those 20 years of Spidey history. It does not negate a dang thing. (To me, I see the complete logic in this.)

See this could potentially be accurate if not for OMIT. OMIT showed us the history as it now exists. You can't have both because they are two entirely different histories. By Marvel logic the past 20 years cannot possibly have existed... it's been rewritten (which breaks from Marvel science where an alternate reality should have been created).

I think there is an alternate factor in your not liking this new (well, not really new any more, huh?) direction for Spidey...and, it shows in the above response. JH, you are a man who takes pride in his marriage and relationship with your wife; and, for whatever reason, you are taking Peter's nullification of his marriage as a complete slap in the face. You are bringing YOUR history and YOUR feelings into your reaction to OMD.

Actually no, this isn't the case. I've said from day one I didn't mind if they divorced provided there was a good reason for it or simply killed her off. I'm not one who is fighting for the marriage to be back, though I'd love to see it. I'm upset at their making it never have happened. THAT is what I find to be a slap in the face.

That's a great point you make. The X-Men today would not be the same if they didn't go through Age Of Apocalypse...even though that will never happen. Spidey could not be going through what he went through is the past 20 years didn't happen. (In this way, Age Of Apocalypse is 616. Without Age, you have no Nate...or Sugar Man. It's an alternate reality AND 616 history.) For me, that point only proves what I've been saying.

But Age of Apocalypse didn't happen in the 616. We were transfered to Earth-295 which showed the ramifications of their actions along with Bishop. There were echos of that world back to the 616 through Bishop's dreams but the death of Xavier did usher a new reality. Blink, Sabretooth, Nate Grey, Dark Beast, Holocaust, and Sugar Man simply jumped realities through various means as many from the 616 have. Earth-295 (the Age of Apocalypse) was never 616 history. It was a divergent of the Legion Quest but never the same reality.

Same should have happened with OMD. OMIT should have pretty much restarted a new reality as a result of Mephisto's tampering which is what we're seeing in BND. However, it shouldn't have changed anything in the main 616. Based on how the Marvel Universe works (Omniverse?) there should now be two timelines... 616 and BND. It was bad writing and planning on Marvel's part to ignore this.

Look at all the times we've had alternate realities and going back in time, with the heroes of the 616 returning to what we see now: Age Of Apocalypse, Heroes Reborn, Avengers Forever. The list could go on and on and on. The F4 have time traveled more than enough times! Every time Kang comes to fight the Avengers, it should be considered an alternate timeline.

They're all different realities that they either visited or created by their actions. None of them are actually 616 history. If you look HERE you can see how it's all layed out.

Plain and simply, the Butterfly effect in Marvel Comics creates divergent realities. It's a long known and practiced fact. OMD/OMIT/BND ignores this.

I didn't like that storyline...it had an "icky" feel to it. It made you want to severely scrub all the taint of it off your body after reading it. BUT, it didn't change my reaction to past or future stories.

But how many mentions of Gwens infidelity have there been since Sins Past? Two stories with the kids? Would the story get worse for you if it was rubbed in your face every issue for the next 100 issues of the title and all the creators and fans do nothing but tell you how fantastic the affair was and how it brings a new level of greatness to the title? If the current writer mocked about it? Peter and MJ having a talk about how loving Gwen was and then they "have a good laugh about it"?

This is not why the current fans of Spidey are enjoying the book. Many who like the current direction STILL complained about OMD. There are numerous factors for people to like or dislike it. As I've pointed out, I think there are a few factors beyond just OMD why you do not like Spidey's current direction. To repeat myself:

*HUGE FACTOR..in my mind..is where YOU are in your life, and how you associate Spidey to it. You're a devoted husband who finds marriage sacred. You made a promise before GOD, and nobody would ever destroy that...least of all a demon, like Mephisto. Your marriage...your religion...and, your reaction to all that might be the biggest factor I see.

This actually is no factor on my thoughts toward Spider-Man. I was always okay with them being separate. Heck, I even like the idea of him hooking up with another superhero (Spider-Woman specifically)... I just don't like the undoing of history. Let those of us who did like the marriage enjoy the memory of the marriage without OMD's now added taint.

*Another HUGE FACTOR is the internet. When we get online and start typing out our responses to something that upsets us...two things either happen. A) It lets us speak our mind, get something off our chest, and we can then go on with our lives (which I believe is the healthiest of reactions), or B) it gets even MORE intensified, we'll keep badgering on and on and on about it, and we let it dictate our lives more than heal the wound. Spidey's OMD is not the first time this has happened. I remember when I first got on The Hype, there was someone who CONSTANTLY complained about Bendis killing off Ant-Man, his favorite character. (Of course, many on here loved to egg the guy on with any mention of that...which would ALWAYS get a reaction.)

Heh heh... Muse. I still think of him when I hear mention of Scott Lang

And yeah, I can see your point on this one. The unfortunate thing about this is even at times when I'd like to try to move on from it, one panel of how they portray Peter and MJ now infuriates me again, so no, I don't think the internet is my problem.

I really, really believe that if not for the internet, a LOT of the complainers would have stopped complaining about OMD by now. Sure, it would come up in conversations...just as The Clone Saga still comes up today. But, the intensity isn't there.

That's because the Clone Saga problems were fixed. When are they fixing OMD? The intensity will vanish when that happens as well.

It's not about the story...for if it was, how could you say "due to this I can no longer feel invested in the books like I was prior to OMD. Any comic book really." I think I've shown that these type of changes have been happening frequently enough in the 20 years prior to OMD...so, there is something profound in you that made OMD the breaking point. JH, seriously, I don't think it's about OMD.

When I went to marriage counceling, I learned sooo much about myself. One point is that "Said Situation doesn't make you feel a certain way...YOU make yourself feel a certain way." OMD doesn't make you dislike the comic industry to feel this way, but there is something you are bringing into it that is causing this reaction from you. OMD is just a comic. It's just a very short moment in a LONG history of Spidey comics..and, even though you feel like it's changed 20 years of Spidey history, it's all in the perception. For some reason, this effects you a great deal. If you really search yourself, you could get some true enlightenment. From there will come healing.

I joke about much of what I talk about, and I don't take anything too seriously. (The whole Intervention was that aspect.) But, maybe there is something in truth about that. At one time, I gave up comics. I was in a new relationship...I was in love...and, in truth, it wasn't comics that had changed, but it was me. Eventually, after the shine of the new relationship wears off, those comics started calling me back; and, then comics became a hardship on my relationship. Again, it isn't the comics that really cause it, but the feelings involved in how my ex and I looked at those comics. (It's a lot of "if you care about me, you wouldn't waste your money on something so childish." And, for me, it was "I want to reclaim some of my past...and, because of that past, comics provided an escape.")

It's not the comics...it's not the storylines...that effect our attitudes. It's us.

OK, I REALLY went into a different direction with this, and I hope you don't mind that I kind of got real personal with things. It's how I feel about it, and figure you respect my opinion.

While I do respect your opinions (and you know that) I don't feel the same thing is happening with me during this story. There's nothing pulling me from comics, simply that I've come to the realization that the creators aren't in it for story or character or history but money... and that at any point they can undo whatever htey want just to pull in new readers, old readers be you know what (darn my non-cursing ways). That makes me think less of the industry as a whole and takes away from my enjoyment of it knowing it can all be erased at any given time. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Funny thing talking about "What If's?" Marvel shows us What If's where one little thing makes huge changes in the Marvel Universe. With OMD/OMIT they try to tell us almost NOTHING changes because Pete & MJ never married.

 

[Phaedrus45]

See this could potentially be accurate if not for OMIT. OMIT showed us the history as it now exists. You can't have both because they are two entirely different histories. By Marvel logic the past 20 years cannot possibly have existed... it's been rewritten (which breaks from Marvel science where an alternate reality should have been created).

All OMIT does is shows us how some major moments from past comics are now seen in the 616 Universe. It's what a large group of people constantly questioned...and, Marvel answered that question. That does not change the fact that for all this to happen, the past 20 years STILL has to happen. IF the past 20 years didn't happen, OMIT doesn't happen. If OMD didn't happen, OMIT doesn't happen. It's as plain as the nose on your face. (Oh, gosh...I sure hope you have a nose on your face!)

JH, even if you had a chance to go back in time and change something in your past, that decision is marked by EVERYTHING that has happened up to the point you are changing. You don't get one without the other.

But Age of Apocalypse didn't happen in the 616. We were transfered to Earth-295 which showed the ramifications of their actions along with Bishop. There were echos of that world back to the 616 through Bishop's dreams but the death of Xavier did usher a new reality. Blink, Sabretooth, Nate Grey, Dark Beast, Holocaust, and Sugar Man simply jumped realities through various means as many from the 616 have. Earth-295 (the Age of Apocalypse) was never 616 history. It was a divergent of the Legion Quest but never the same reality.

Age Of Apocalypse happened because of events in the 616. And, that event/universe effected what has happened afterwards. You cannot have one without the other.

But how many mentions of Gwens infidelity have there been since Sins Past? Two stories with the kids? Would the story get worse for you if it was rubbed in your face every issue for the next 100 issues of the title and all the creators and fans do nothing but tell you how fantastic the affair was and how it brings a new level of greatness to the title? If the current writer mocked about it? Peter and MJ having a talk about how loving Gwen was and then they "have a good laugh about it"?

Now, I greatly disagree with this point for one good reason. YOU (and a few others) see any mention or appearance from MJ as being "rubbed in your face." I don't see the Marvel writers as being so malicious as to be thinking, "I know how to really peeve off all the readers." Even when Dan Slott said that the scene that got a few people in an uproar wasn't done for this reason, people pretty much flat out called him a liar. This is you bringing your feeling into a situation. A writer should not have to walk on tippy-toes when it comes to MJ.

And yeah, I can see your point on this one. The unfortunate thing about this is even at times when I'd like to try to move on from it, one panel of how they portray Peter and MJ now infuriates me again, so no, I don't think the internet is my problem.

And, that's the thing. Dan did one page showing new readers his current relationship with MJ. This whole issue was Peter revisiting all those supporting characters, letting us know in such a fantastic style those interpersonal relationships. Dan did not act maliciously; and, to say otherwise is basically calling the man a liar. And, I truly believe that while the scene might have stuck out a bit, if not for the internet, people wouldn't have spent so much time complaining about it for a full week. (Dan is partially to blame here, though; because, he's known to "feed the fire" in his responses to you guys.)

That's because the Clone Saga problems were fixed. When are they fixing OMD? The intensity will vanish when that happens as well.

OK...let's say that someone comes along tomorrow...kicks Dan out of the writing seat (like JMS kicking Simone off of Wonder Woman)...and, writes a story that says, "Everything from OMD to today has all been a crazy dream." Now what do you have?? You have a new set of people peeved and complaining about what just happened...and, even people who hated OMD would probably get on that boat, too. You'll now be happy, but a whole new group picks up the fight that you'll be leaving. You just can't make everyone happy...so, you might as well work with what you have. (And, I think Dan has been doing that marvelously.)

While I do respect your opinions (and you know that) I don't feel the same thing is happening with me during this story. There's nothing pulling me from comics, simply that I've come to the realization that the creators aren't in it for story or character or history but money... and that at any point they can undo whatever htey want just to pull in new readers, old readers be you know what (darn my non-cursing ways). That makes me think less of the industry as a whole and takes away from my enjoyment of it knowing it can all be erased at any given time. It really is as simple as that.

I don't know. You had some telling words in that past argument that persuaded me in the opposite direction. I think a lot of factors make up your staunch decision to dislike all things Spidey...and, even when got into comics, it was always about cold hard cash. (The fact you got in around the late 80's and early 90's speaks quite a bit about that. When I think of that time, I think "quantity over quality.") To say you are no disenchanted with comics because it's all about the money means you just ignored that fact for the last 20 years....or it just wasn't as important to you.

 

[JewishHobbit]

All OMIT does is shows us how some major moments from past comics are now seen in the 616 Universe. It's what a large group of people constantly questioned...and, Marvel answered that question. That does not change the fact that for all this to happen, the past 20 years STILL has to happen. IF the past 20 years didn't happen, OMIT doesn't happen. If OMD didn't happen, OMIT doesn't happen. It's as plain as the nose on your face. (Oh, gosh...I sure hope you have a nose on your face!)

JH, even if you had a chance to go back in time and change something in your past, that decision is marked by EVERYTHING that has happened up to the point you are changing. You don't get one without the other.

In theory you don't get one without the other but when one undoes the other then it's gone. If I'm writing my book and write over the rough draft with a final draft. Yes, that rough draft got me to the final draft but that rough draft either A) no longer exists, or B) is saved in a different file (reality). They can't both be smashed together or it wouldn't make a lick of sense.

You say it's as plain as the nose on my face but what you're saying makes no sense at all.

Age Of Apocalypse happened because of events in the 616. And, that event/universe effected what has happened afterwards. You cannot have one without the other.

Did you see Lord Apocalypse running the 616 Marvel universe with pile of bones everywhere, and then having the Scarlet Spider, the good Green Goblin, and the New Warriors swing in to help Magneto's X-Men in the final battle? As awesome as that would hav ebeen, no you didn't. Spider-Man cannot be dealing with the Clone stuff AND be killed long ago, and Gwen Stacy cannot be dead due to the Green Goblin AND fighting with the resistance alongside Stark and Blake.

You CAN, however, have these separate things going on because Legion Quest created the Age of Apocalypse as an alternate earth while the 616 kept moving. That is all I'm saying about OMD/OMIT. Yes, both can happen but only if the BND is a divergent Earth changing what is going on after such a prominant thing was altered in the past. Honestly, as you say, it's as plain as the nose on your face.

Now, I greatly disagree with this point for one good reason. YOU (and a few others) see any mention or appearance from MJ as being "rubbed in your face." I don't see the Marvel writers as being so malicious as to be thinking, "I know how to really peeve off all the readers." Even when Dan Slott said that the scene that got a few people in an uproar wasn't done for this reason, people pretty much flat out called him a liar. This is you bringing your feeling into a situation. A writer should not have to walk on tippy-toes when it comes to MJ.

They put themselves in that situation... make the bed, lie in it. Walk on tippy-toes or get ragged at about it, but don't get mad at the fans you knew would be upset about it for being upset, and don't offer deadlines of grieving as you (they) aren't grieving one iota because they got what they want despite the people they ticked off. Honestly, if they cared a lick about the MJ fans they'd have went about it a different way, so being they they didn't care about that generation of reader why should that generation of reader care about them?

And besides what Slott says his intentions were regarding his scene, and I still call crap on what he said, the fact that more people on this site than not recognized it for what it was and agree with me is saying something. I only saw maybe three or four people who saw nothing wrong with it, including you and Slott himself. Besides, really, what was Slott going to say? "Yeah, I did that to mock you guys. TAKE THAT SUCKERS!" And I don't call fowl on every MJ scene as I don't care enough to read it anymore to even see the scenes. The only MJ stuff I called fowl on were in OMIT and Slott's first issue because OMIT was a joke and Slott's was so blatantly obvious it was insulting. But Slott got his laugh out, it's done now, move on... or in my case... don't bother trying to.

And, that's the thing. Dan did one page disrespectfully showing new readers his current relationship with MJ.

Corrected

This whole issue was Peter revisiting all those supporting characters, letting us know in such a fantastic style those interpersonal relationships.

So then you're saying Peter and MJ's interpersonal relationship is good for a laugh? Because based on what you say and what happened in the scene, that's what you're saying. When you have to decipher a scene to find the good qualities or meaning, or when the writer himself has to explain it, there's something wrong with it. Kinda like if it was a good story Marvel shouldn't have had to explain OMD and BND with OMIT (and still failed at that as well).

Dan did not act maliciously;

You assume.

and, to say otherwise is basically calling the man a liar.

I definately believe it's possible

OK...let's say that someone comes along tomorrow...kicks Dan out of the writing seat (like JMS kicking Simone off of Wonder Woman)...and, writes a story that says, "Everything from OMD to today has all been a crazy dream." Now what do you have?? You have a new set of people peeved and complaining about what just happened...and, even people who hated OMD would probably get on that boat, too. You'll now be happy, but a whole new group picks up the fight that you'll be leaving. You just can't make everyone happy...so, you might as well work with what you have. (And, I think Dan has been doing that marvelously.)

Technically, isn't that what happened with OMD? So shouldn't they have taken this advice and not even bothered with it to begin with? God knows Spider-Man forums and threads would be a lot more friendly if they'd have used common sense like this to begin with.

And if that happened, what you'd have is progression instead of regression because even now, after 2 years and 1 hundred or so issues, we're still not where we were 2 years ago. You'd also have a lot of happy anti-OMDers and if the people who defend BND so adamantly now throw hissyfits then we'd also have a bunch of hypocritical readers who can "dish it but not take it" when it comes to the crap that comes to their Spidey. And most importantly, you'd have a history that doesn't raise eyebrows and can be respected in its entirety, not just in parts.

I don't know. You had some telling words in that past argument that persuaded me in the opposite direction. I think a lot of factors make up your staunch decision to dislike all things Spidey...and, even when got into comics, it was always about cold hard cash. (The fact you got in around the late 80's and early 90's speaks quite a bit about that. When I think of that time, I think "quantity over quality.") To say you are no disenchanted with comics because it's all about the money means you just ignored that fact for the last 20 years....or it just wasn't as important to you.

I knew nothing about the behind the scenes of comic books until I found this website back in 2003. I didn't even bother looking into it much until I started reading Dread's posts, so that's been a few years ago. It was OMD that made me realize how little the behind the scenes people care about the characters or histories of the company, and that was 2 years ago. From 1991 or so when I first started collected up until somewhere around 2000 I didn't even know who wrote what book or even what an editor did. Around 2000 I read more Wizard and got to know some stuff but not much. All in all it was a lack of caring about behind the scenes and more the progression of the characters within the pages. I didn't know when writers changed and didn't care. It was an ongoing soap opera that I loved. OMD undid all those years of anticipating the characters because they erased 20 years of my loving Peter and MJ and still think it's an amazing idea. If they'll do it to Peter and MJ they'll do it wherever they want, so why get invested? There really isn't anything else to it.

I'd rather invest my emotions in a set story within a novel where one writer cares about every character and puts his or her heart into them beginning to end, showing them and the history of the story the respect it deserves. There's not going to be someone else coming in to just erase it on their whims because they want to do it a different way in a few years.

 

[runawayboulder]

wrong thread

 

[JewishHobbit]

Funny thing talking about "What If's?" Marvel shows us What If's where one little thing makes huge changes in the Marvel Universe. With OMD/OMIT they try to tell us almost NOTHING changes because Pete & MJ never married.

Because we're nincompoops who should just buy whatever explanation they shovel and are annoying fanboys if we question them. We're like women all them years ago who should have no opinions and simply say "Yes, sir." "Very good, sir."

 

[JewishHobbit]

wrong thread

Phaed started it

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

YOU WILL TAKE YOUR SPIDEY CONTINUITY AND YOU'LL LIKE IT!

So there. Moving on...


AMAZING SPIDER-MAN under Slott has been more palatable than the last three years. We knew Slott was THE guy to write Amazing, but all his sidekicks took away from that. I'd also rather we had the REAL Spidey and not this cheap imitation from BND, and I can do with a HELL of a lot less Ramos. But, overall, it's been a decent read unlike Spidey has been. I see hard luck ADULT Parker rather than Manchild Parker.

VELOCITY - Looked interesting, so I picked them up. Nobody ever had #1 and I wasn't about to pay $10 for the variant covers, so I'll hafta get that eventually. 2-3 have been pretty good. I know nothing about Cyberforce outside their occasional X-Men team-up, so while the story does a good job filling you in on itself you may not know anything about any of the players involved. The back-up profile feature helps somewhat there, at least for Velocity herself.

WITCHBLADE ANNUAL was pretty pointless, as all annuals tend to be. Three stories that have no real consequence in the grand scheme of her mythos, other than to tell us about two other Witchblade bearers. Following that was a pretty good mystery text story. I've tried to get into Witchblade, but I just couldn't see the appeal beyond the T&A factor...and shockingly, I need a bit more than that to get into and stay on a book. Maybe one day I'll buy the collections on the cheap and read through her entire series to see if I can find the reason she's lasted so long. I'm sure I'm missing THE great stories. Or maybe T&A goes a long way...

DEADPOOLMAX was on the verge of being added to the drop list ($3.99 for a standard comic is WAY too much, especially for DP) but this last issue may have saved it. Dunno what it was, but seeing this super-insane DP massacre the KKK and a fanatical Zemo kinda struck a chord. I'll get #4 to see if it keeps up whatever appeal I just found, but otherwise I can do with less DP per month.

TITANS has picked up a bit after a rocky re-start, but the thing I loved most in this arc as Batman's cowl. I love it when the comics integrate Burton's movies into them. I love when Batman's costume is drawn like Keaton's, and when the Batmobile shows up.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Fat people are like a disease

HEY!

... Nah, that's fair.

 

[JewishHobbit]

They're also like corks if used properly.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Or doorstops.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Heh, that reminds me of a story. When I was a teenager in youth group we used to go on trips. Well, this one trip we were being exceedingly rambunctious and started a prank war with this other youth group. Well, my youth pastor knew we were a group who liked to win a prank war and told us we could NOT leave the hotel room to do this, and to further reinforce this he pulled his bed up to the door to sleep on it. Note... he was over 400 pounds.

We still won the war though. The other group was in the neighboring bedroom so we undid the vent in the ceiling, the smallest of us climbed through to their vent above their bathroom, and filled their hotel room full of fog from the fog machine sending them screaming, running out of their room claiming fire. My youth pastor slept through this and we went to bed like nothing happened. He was proud of us for being the bigger men the next morning and we just smiled.

He about crapped himself when we told him what happened months later

But yeah, he made a great doorstop.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Since we're going round and round on the whole time concept, I'll skip all that and just do a couple comments.

They put themselves in that situation... make the bed, lie in it. Walk on tippy-toes or get ragged at about it, but don't get mad at the fans you knew would be upset about it for being upset, and don't offer deadlines of grieving as you (they) aren't grieving one iota because they got what they want despite the people they ticked off. Honestly, if they cared a lick about the MJ fans they'd have went about it a different way, so being they they didn't care about that generation of reader why should that generation of reader care about them?

"If they cared a lick about the MJ fans..."

Ah, there in lies the rub. For your 20 years, you thought Spider-Man was just as much about MJ as Peter Parker. Noooo, my dear friend! Spider-Man is about Peter Parker NEVER getting exactly what he wants. (Kind of like Gilligan's Island is never about getting those guys off the island...until the movies did it years and years later.) That was Stan Lee's idea for this character...and, with Peter being married, (my opinion) I found Spidey took more importance than Peter.

This book is not about MJ. If you want MJ, you need a book devoted to her. (And, we had that with Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane...and, a damn good book it was.)

And besides what Slott says his intentions were regarding his scene, and I still call crap on what he said, the fact that more people on this site than not recognized it for what it was and agree with me is saying something. I only saw maybe three or four people who saw nothing wrong with it, including you and Slott himself. Besides, really, what was Slott going to say? "Yeah, I did that to mock you guys. TAKE THAT SUCKERS!" And I don't call fowl on every MJ scene as I don't care enough to read it anymore to even see the scenes. The only MJ stuff I called fowl on were in OMIT and Slott's first issue because OMIT was a joke and Slott's was so blatantly obvious it was insulting. But Slott got his laugh out, it's done now, move on... or in my case... don't bother trying to.

Yes, you had some vocal people on here about that one scene...and, the negatives usually drown out the positives. Or, more to the point, those people who didn't mind that scene are not going to take the time to type out "it did not bother me."

And, to take a man's word and call crap on it...I think it's a bit wrong. Dan has the decency to give his opinion to the fans (something you just don't see on here with any other writer), and it would be insulting to have them say "I don't believe a word your saying." I really, REALLY think you're letting your own feelings sway your opinion of that whole scene.

I knew nothing about the behind the scenes of comic books until I found this website back in 2003. I didn't even bother looking into it much until I started reading Dread's posts, so that's been a few years ago. It was OMD that made me realize how little the behind the scenes people care about the characters or histories of the company, and that was 2 years ago. From 1991 or so when I first started collected up until somewhere around 2000 I didn't even know who wrote what book or even what an editor did. Around 2000 I read more Wizard and got to know some stuff but not much. All in all it was a lack of caring about behind the scenes and more the progression of the characters within the pages. I didn't know when writers changed and didn't care. It was an ongoing soap opera that I loved. OMD undid all those years of anticipating the characters because they erased 20 years of my loving Peter and MJ and still think it's an amazing idea. If they'll do it to Peter and MJ they'll do it wherever they want, so why get invested? There really isn't anything else to it.

I'd rather invest my emotions in a set story within a novel where one writer cares about every character and puts his or her heart into them beginning to end, showing them and the history of the story the respect it deserves. There's not going to be someone else coming in to just erase it on their whims because they want to do it a different way in a few years.

So, I can blame this all on the internet...and DREAD!

Dispising the industry has been going on for years and years...and, I guess you just used to have the "ignorance is bliss" aspect of it. That's life, though. In our jobs, I've learned that "we're all replaceable." No matter how important you think you are to a company, you can be easily replaced and forgotten the next day. All companies are about making a buck, and most of those people in charge of those companies believe that they know what's best for it. Marvel is no different than the rest...and, you can read endlessly about the disgruntled readers, writers, and artists who have been with them. Even the creators of some of our favorite characters have been in bitter battles with those companies. (I think Stan Lee is about the only extremely positive guy when it comes to sound bites...always being supportive of whatever direction they take his characters into.) I think the first time I learned about it all was when I read about Jack Kirby's feud with Marvel. Of course, the biggest would probably be when Image was formed...and, then I remember Wizard and the letter pages in those Image comics being all about Marvel-bashing.

 

[Phaedrus45]

wrong thread

Yeah...but, the thread was pretty darn dead at this point.