Brett Ratner saved the X-Men franchise?

[david icke]

What?

nvrmnd = nevermind

I just thought i was kind of butting in back there and didn't want to get in the way of someone else's convo, but I'll re-state what i said

I agree with a lot of what you said about X3, apart from some things like...

They could have had more of a character/identity struggle going on with Jean Grey/Phoenix.
eg In the forest scene the old Jean Grey seems to be reaching out to Logan, but when he goes up to her Magneto interrupts and she just walks away.
This, when we've just seen Jean Grey/DP toying with Magneto, showing she's not exactly at his beck and call.
It would've been a nice scene to have her struggling between loyalty to Logan or going off with Magneto.

The scene with her waking up and struggling through her identity was good, but the writers didn't seem to be able to take it further than that and just left her silent.
They said the studio wanted her spouting bad guy type posturing so they left her silent instead. But I think this is maybe just an excuse as they didn't quite know what to do with the character, or didn't have enough time to do anything due to the short run time and two plots.
The cure and the phoenix work well together, but if we would have had the DP story alone, like Singer would've done, we would have had a much more full character study, which would have been more interesting.

RE: The Danger Room

I find it quite enjoyable, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was one of the series highlights action wise. Rothman has a fe-fi-phobia about giants appearing in his cb movies. He's said this himself, that no giant creatures shall appear in a Fox cb movie.
So we don't get to see a full Sentinal. This also leads to a real shabby piece of filmaking.
Logan looks as if he's just popped out of thin air when he walks out from behind the Sentinal head.
From the distance we see him throw the robot head there's not enough time for him to have walked that distance, and we would have seen him walking there, the head is not big enough to block out his approach.
It's the same kind of thing as when Magneto appears in front of Xavier and co outside Jean's house. It's like he pops out of thin air, or from out behind the camera. there's nothing there to stop Xavier and co seeing him rightaway.

I agree that the rushed production was the main fault of X3, but Ratner made some right shoddy elementary boo-boos of filmaking in those cases.

 

[GhostPoet]

I thought they had no real understanding of Rogue and Storm in all the films. Same with Mystique. Everyone involved dropped the ball when it came to those characters...they were very little like their comic counter-parts.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I didn't say "entirely faithful". That would be silly of me. I said "More faithful than X2".

Dark Phoenix wasn't mute. She got more and more "alien" and inhuman as the film wore on, and didn't speak much, but she did speak. Monologuing villains are on the way out. A Phoenix that talks all the time about this or that might be faithful, but it wouldn't neccessarily be good or appropriate for the tone of the film.

No she went mute, she didnt speak for almost the entire 2nd half of the movie, she called Wolverine to the woods only to say nothing to him, it was poor writing and decision making at its finest, even Famke Janssen hated what happened to her.

What did you want her to say, exactly?

Say what she is feeling, why she went with Magneto and his cohorts, former enemies why she doesnt chastise some of the others when they criticise her to Magneto or at least threaten them, say something to Wolverine after he came to try and rescue you for crying out loud. Show her conflicted, not just standing there with a blank stare on her face.

Anyway...if we start making lists of key elements X3 got right and included from the comics and its various storylines when it adapted them VS key elements that it and X2 altered...X3 tends to be a more faithful film overall.

And I could list countless X3 got wrong, not saying X2 was perfect, but it didnt have near the amount of flaws X3 has.

Eh...no.

Oh right, end of argument then, your word is gospel .

Then you need to read more comics, or at the very least, stop making definitive statements about what is or isn't faithful in these films.

Because Cyclops LOST IT in the comics after Jean died. He became depressed, and actually quit the team for a while, believing he was unable to go on. And it's actually happened several times.

I know he left, and this is what should have happened in the movie, only for him to come back and realise Jean is alive and doing terrible things, that would have been a much better, more faithful storyline that actually had an emotional kick to it, rather than the emotionless movie we got.

Xavier has been an outright villain before, and yes, he's been revealed as manipulative and a bit of a jerk in the comics as well as the years wore on.

For every example you've got that they got wrong in X3...there's something they got very, very right. If you want to make a list of things that are faithful VS things that aren't, hell, X-MEN and X2 fail that test, too in a lot of ways. I've made my lists. I've had this discussion over and over and over again, and I'm reasonably sure X3 had more faithful material, and more source material from the comics, period, than X-MEN and X2 did. We can make lists if you all insist.

I dont have time to make lists Guard, I kow X-Men and X2 arent 100% faithful, but they got the characters right for the most part, and in that regard the first 2 movies blow X3 away.

Mind you, when we make said list, don't be ridiculous and attack things like "There were no Shi'ar and M'Kraan Crystal in X3". There were never going to be, and these are the kinds of fidelity issues X2 had as well. Be realistic about it. Look at basic elements, key elements, that actually have to do with the events as they'd been unfolding in the X-Men franchise, in the context of this particular universe. Hopefully that makes sense.

I have never seen anyone complain about the lack of Shi'ar and the M'Kraan Crystal, so to bring it up is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. There are plenty of other complaint I have but that isnt one of them.

What on Earth was "garbage" about it? The Danger Room sequence ALONE featured more unique and more action, period, than most of the battle sequences in the X-films to date.

In your opinion, in mine it was garbage, and had minimal excitement and what was unique about it? Explosions going off in the background from an unseen threat, yeah really unique.

 

[The Guard]

No she went mute, she didnt speak for almost the entire 2nd half of the movie, she called Wolverine to the woods only to say nothing to him, it was poor writing and decision making at its finest, even Famke Janssen hated what happened to her.

She did, as you admit, not speak for almost the entire second half of the movie, but she was able to speak, both before this and afterward. She just didn't. It's not like she was mute for the entire film.

Now, is that entirely faithful to her nature in the comics? No. But her being "lost" in her Phoenix persona and resisting her friends' attempts to help her and bring her back definitely is. That's what the muteness, and the "zombification" was portraying.

There was no visible struggle because after Jean became Dark Phoenix, even in the comics there was never much of a struggle until she dimininished into Jean again after wreaking havoc and having her friends appeal to her. So this, while not as compelling possibly as it could have been, is still a fairly faithful element.

So she's not monologuing supervillain style constantly. Big loss.

Say what she is feeling, why she went with Magneto and his cohorts, former enemies why she doesnt chastise some of the others when they criticise her to Magneto or at least threaten them, say something to Wolverine after he came to try and rescue you for crying out loud. Show her conflicted, not just standing there with a blank stare on her face.

Again...she's not supposed to be conflicted. She's lost. What you want isn't Dark Phoenix. It's some weird pseudo Two-Face Dark Phoenix. The struggle is over after she kills Xavier. She's lost, she goes with Magneto, who allowed her to be what she can be, and she stays with him.

So what you want is for the screenwriters to break the first rule of screenwriting...and to have the character TELL everyone what she's feeling. Instead of letting an actress who is completely capable of doing this with just her emoting convey this via her performance. Which she did. And people noticed. And praised her for.

And I could list countless X3 got wrong, not saying X2 was perfect, but it didnt have near the amount of flaws X3 has.

Make your list then.

X2 had many of the same flaws X3 did, so almost any flaw you can come up with is also likely going to be somewhere in X2. And X2 did not include nearly as much comic book material. It just didn't. X3 has more faithful elements than X2 and X-Men did. Easily.

Oh right, end of argument then, your word is gospel.

No...I don't agree with your assessment that X2 was more faithful to WEAPON X than X3 was to the Dark Phoenix story. Not in the least. Showing a few flashbacks of Wolverine in the tank is not a faithful rendition of the Weapon X storyline. Stryker was nowhere to be found in WEAPON X, and was a HUGE element in the film's version of events, which makes William Stryker's use in the film, while interesting, was doubly unfaithful, to both WEAPON X and GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS storylines.

I know he left, and this is what should have happened in the movie, only for him to come back and realise Jean is alive and doing terrible things, that would have been a much better, more faithful storyline that actually had an emotional kick to it, rather than the emotionless movie we got.

If you know it, why did you act like you didn't. Because the thing is, you didn't say "Cyclops' death". You said "Cyclops being a changed man", which had a very distinct meaning within the film.

But I didnt find Cyclops 'being a changed man' after Jean's death, Rogue getting cured or Xavier being a bastard faithful at all, and thats just a few examples.

So we see that what you "found" (other than Rogue, whose character in the comics has often wanted to be free of her "curse") was incorrect in terms of whether or not it was faithful to an element of the mythology. Because hey, as I pointed out, Cyclops being a "changed man" after Jean dies is pretty much right from the comics. So is Xavier being a, as you say, "bastard".

dont have time to make lists Guard, I kow X-Men and X2 arent 100% faithful, but they got the characters right for the most part, and in that regard the first 2 movies blow X3 away.

I don't either, and it's a shame. Because without actual proof, I'm reluctant to believe you have any idea what you're talking about in terms of which movie is more faithful. I've made lists before, in other discussions. Both movies present altered elements of the mythology, so they're both unfaithful to a large degree, but X3 presents more in depth elements, and it presents more of it, too. X3 wins by sheer force of volume of "faithful material", frankly. It's hardly even a contest. Brett Ratner and the writers of X3 beat Singer and the writers of X-MEN and X2 with a big fat hose made of pure iron in this category.

I have never seen anyone complain about the lack of Shi'ar and the M'Kraan Crystal, so to bring it up is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. There are plenty of other complaint I have but that isnt one of them.

I have seen just that complaint many times. Not so much recently thank goodness, but always expect it to happen. Had I not brought it up, this would potentially be the first thing people ran to. "But...but...it's not like the Dark Phoenix Saga in the comic books!" Been there, done that.

In your opinion, in mine it was garbage, and had minimal excitement and what was unique about it? Explosions going off in the background from an unseen threat, yeah really unique.

It's not really an opinion, you can see a clear evolution of power usage and the style of action there from anything there was in previous movies. I can elaborate if need be. The best physical action and confident combat use of powers that Rogue has in the entire series is in the Danger Room. Kitty Pryde easily displayed a much more unique use of her power than she did in previous movies, just in the Danger Room, let alone in later scenes. Bobby displayed more power than he did at any point in the previous films. That can't even be argued. Colossus had a far more active role action and powerwise in the Danger Room alone than he had in previous movies. The X-Men fought in a true battle zone together for the first time, utilizing strategy and teamwork consistently in a battle environment, not in "chunks" of story as they did in X-MEN and X2. Lasers, explosions, An obvious DAYS OF FUTURE PAST setting...that's a pretty classic Danger Room Scenario if there is one. And there's a Sentinel for goodness's sake, even if all you can see is the head and top of it. How is that stuff not unique compared to the other stuff in the franchise and most other action movies?

 

[slothbp]

I might get hell for this.

 

[slothbp]

I think Brett Ratners movie was better than the first two X-Men films. It was more faithful to the comic books, and had better action scenes. It was a bit on the crowded side but so were Singers movies. Anything more than four heroes or villians will make any comic-book movie suffer. You're all just being jerks to Ratner because his film was alot different. X-Men one and two had too many dramatic scenes for my taste. If the comedy and action had been bumped up, I might have a different opinion. Plus, ratner had the third film, which almost always cursed. I can't wait to see all the *****ing and people screaming for reboots when the third Batman movie comes out. That's how I feel.

 

[El Payaso]

I might get hell for this. I thought X-men 3 was just as good as the first two films. Brett Ratner is still getting **** from you guys just because his film was different than Singers. That and the film had the whole end of trilogy curse on it. I bet all you Dark Knight fans will be really sour and start crying reboot when the stinkfest that is Batman 3 comes out. It happens to almost every movie that makes it to three. You can complain all you want, but Ratners movie made more than X-Men one and two. So, in essence Brett did help save the x-men. He came on in the middle of production. There was nothing he could do except direct it. That's my opinion.

I agree with some of what you say. I thought X3 story was far more interesting than anything in X2, the acting was as good and they weren't afraid of taking some radical decisions.

 

[The Overlord]

I agree with some of what you say. I thought X3 story was far more interesting than anything in X2, the acting was as good and they weren't afraid of taking some radical decisions.

X2 had better pacing and more cohesion then X3, plus the Wolverine vs. Deathstrike fight was the best action scene in the whole film series.

 

[slothbp]

I have to disagree Overlord. I think the final battle of X-men 3 was th best of the series. It was an actual good guys vs. bad guys fight instead of this person fighting that person. It made me all giddy to see a big fight for once.

 

[The Overlord]

I have to disagree Overlord. I think the final battle of X-men 3 was th best of the series. It was an actual good guys vs. bad guys fight instead of this person fighting that person. It made me all giddy to see a big fight for once.

It was chaotic and badly paced and still don't know who half those people were supposed to be.

 

[slothbp]

I'm not talking about direction. I'm talking about the fact that you have the X-men fighting the Brotherhood. That alone hasn't been shown in any other X-men movies. It's always Storm and Toad or Logan and Deathstrike. I could care less about pacing. I just like to see it.

 

[CelticPredator]

Well, you saw it. And guess what, it was lame. Too much wires.

A 1 on 1 is much more intense.

 

[Gilpesh]

I'm not talking about direction. I'm talking about the fact that you have the X-men fighting the Brotherhood. That alone hasn't been shown in any other X-men movies. It's always Storm and Toad or Logan and Deathstrike. I could care less about pacing. I just like to see it.

Forgetting the fact that the fight in X-Men 3 turns into:

Storm versus Callisto

Iceman versus Pyro

Kitty versus Juggernaut

Wolverine versus anyone!

Colossus versus a bad movie where his character only gets one line and almost no screen time!

Angel versus gravity (to save his dad!)

Jean versus herself!

 

[Mad Ones]

Lol giving Jean a couple lines that flesh out her character in a movie based on the Dark Phoenix Saga = monologuing?

If only all movies knew the secret to developing all troubled characters: keep them from ever speaking and look slightly menacing! The audience will automatically know why he/she made illogical decisions fur shur!!

Anyway, Ratner and friends ruined the X-franchise for me. Mainly because I can't picture an X4 being anywhere near the quality of the first two. Too many retcons are needed, and if that happens, than all credibility is automatically lost. And if these prequels are anything like Wolverine, than the franchise is doomed.

 

[[A]]

Wolverine versus anyone!

Colossus versus a bad movie where his character only gets one line and almost no screen time!

Angel versus gravity (to save his dad!)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

She did, as you admit, not speak for almost the entire second half of the movie, but she was able to speak, both before this and afterward. She just didn't. It's not like she was mute for the entire film.

Now, is that entirely faithful to her nature in the comics? No. But her being "lost" in her Phoenix persona and resisting her friends' attempts to help her and bring her back definitely is. That's what the muteness, and the "zombification" was portraying.

But Jean was still in there, so you expect her to say SOMETHING to her friends, at least Logan when she called out to him to the woods and he came for crying out loud.

The muteness and zombification werent helping factors when trying to the get the duality of the character across, and it especially made less sympathetic, I felt nothing for Jean come the end of the movie, nothing.

There was no visible struggle because after Jean became Dark Phoenix, even in the comics there was never much of a struggle until she dimininished into Jean again after wreaking havoc and having her friends appeal to her. So this, while not as compelling possibly as it could have been, is still a fairly faithful element.

So she's not monologuing supervillain style constantly. Big loss.

I havent heard anyone asking for big monologue's, but give us SOMETHING to work with, we didnt know how Jean was feeling for the WHOLE 2nd half of the movie, as she just stared blankly into space, show SOME regret about killing the 2 most important people in your whole world. She wouldnt even have to speak for this, show a scene were she is crying to herself away from the crowd, but the writers, director studio were too busy getting to the next action scene.

Again...she's not supposed to be conflicted. She's lost. What you want isn't Dark Phoenix. It's some weird pseudo Two-Face Dark Phoenix. The struggle is over after she kills Xavier. She's lost, she goes with Magneto, who allowed her to be what she can be, and she stays with him.[/QUOTE/]

In the cartoon there was conflict, there needs to be conflict so she can saved, as I said above, when Jean died at the end, my only thought was "serves her right." IMO, that is NOT what you should feeling at the end of the Pheonix saga, in fact I'd so far as too say its the opposite of what you should be feeling. The cartoon version, despite its more ridiculous elements, was very emotional in the end.

So what you want is for the screenwriters to break the first rule of screenwriting...and to have the character TELL everyone what she's feeling. Instead of letting an actress who is completely capable of doing this with just her emoting convey this via her performance. Which she did. And people noticed. And praised her for.

People praised her for her performance IN THE 1ST HALF of the movie, not the 2nd, because she did **** all in the 2nd half. I actor's/actressed face can provide the viewer with more than words ever could, but blankly staring into the screen gives us nothing.

Make your list then.

If I ever get the time I will, but it wont be anytime soon, its a stretch for me to reply to these long posts.

X2 had many of the same flaws X3 did, so almost any flaw you can come up with is also likely going to be somewhere in X2. And X2 did not include nearly as much comic book material. It just didn't. X3 has more faithful elements than X2 and X-Men did. Easily.

I couldnt disagree more with this paragraph, X-fans and the general public alike LOVE the first 2 x-movies, the same cannot be said for X3, one of the biggest complaints about X3 was about how unfaithful it is, but because you say its the most faithful, we are all supposed to change our tune and listen to you?

Sorry Guard, there is a reason X3 is the most disliked of the franchise, even on here it is more disliked than Wolverine, a poll proved this.

No...I don't agree with your assessment that X2 was more faithful to WEAPON X than X3 was to the Dark Phoenix story. Not in the least. Showing a few flashbacks of Wolverine in the tank is not a faithful rendition of the Weapon X storyline. Stryker was nowhere to be found in WEAPON X, and was a HUGE element in the film's version of it, which makes William Stryker's use in the film, while interesting, doubly unfaithful, to both WEAPON X and GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS storylines.

Yeah, Stryker wasnt in Weapon X, but Rogue wouldnt take the cure, Scott, despite initially leaving, wouldnt abandon the school and leadership, Xavier wouldnt give up on Scott because he has changed since Jean's death either, Angel wouldnt make it to San Francisco to New York at the same time the X-Jet did, Storm wouldnt give on Jean as easily as she did, I could go on, but you think you get my point.

Thing is, you didn't say "Cyclops' death". You said "Cyclops being a changed man".

But I didnt find Cyclops 'being a changed man' after Jean's death, Rogue getting cured or Xavier being a bastard faithful at all, and thats just a few examples.

So we see that what you "found" was incorrect in terms of whether or not it was faithful to an element of the mythology. Because hey, as I pointed out, Cyclops being a "changed man" after Jean dies is pretty much right from the comics. So is Xavier being a, as you say, "bastard".

But Scott wasnt a changed man to the extent that Xavier would give Storm the mansion once he was gone, nor would Xavier give up on Scott so easily.

Shame. Because without actual proof, I'm reluctant to believe you have any idea what you're talking about in terms of which movie is more faithful. It's hardly even a contest. Both movies present altered elements of the mythology, but X3 presents more in depth elements, and it presents more of it, too. X3 wins by sheer force of volume of "faithful material", frankly.

Its not frankly, its in your opinion, which you happen to think is definitive

I have. Seen it many times. Had I not brought it up, this would potentially be the first thing people ran to. "But...but...it's not like the Dark Phoenix Saga in the comic books!" Been there, done that.

Anyone expecting these things was foolish IMO, they were never going to be there and had no place there, and is one thing I will NEVER complain about in regards to X3, but, funnily enough, people defending X3 always tend to try and accuse me of it when I have never suggested it, coincidence?

It's not really an opinion, you can see a clear evolution of power usage and action there from anything there was in previous movies. The best physical action and combat use of powers that Rogue has in the entire series is in the Danger Room. Kitty Pryde displayed a much more unique use of her power than she did in previous movies. Bobby displayed more power than he did at any point in the previous films. Colossus had a far more active role. The X-Men fought in a true battle zone together, utilizing strategy and teamwork consistently for the first time. Lasers, explosions, DAYS OF FUTURE PAST setting...that's a classic Danger Room Scenario if it's anything. And there's a Sentinel. How is that stuff not unique compared to the other stuff in the franchise and most other action movies?

No you cant, we have scene what Rogue's powers can do, explosions going off in the background and Storm shouting at Logan isnt unique, its more cliche than anything. And I found the power usage in X2 far more unique, especially in regards to Kitty.

Lol giving Jean a couple lines that flesh out her character in a movie based on the Dark Phoenix Saga = monologuing?

If only all movies knew the secret to developing all troubled characters: keep them from ever speaking and look slightly menacing! The audience will automatically know why he/she made illogical decisions fur shur!!
Anyway, Ratner and friends ruined the X-franchise for me. Mainly because I can't picture an X4 being anywhere near the quality of the first two. Too many retcons are needed, and if that happens, than all credibility is automatically lost. And if these prequels are anything like Wolverine, than the franchise is doomed.

Exactly, sums up my feelings perfectly, I'm not asking for 20 min monologues, but say SOMETHING. But that would interrupt the action scene's to much for ADD Ratner.

 

[The Guard]

I think X3 was a pretty natural evolution, save for Cyclops death, of this franchise.

The final battle is not that chaotic. You can clearly see what's going on. And I'm iffy on how a battle is supposed to be paced. It's a battle. And it still amuses me that people ***** about the final battle in X3 after clamoring to see just that for YEARS, starting with X-MEN's release.

Lol giving Jean a couple lines that flesh out her character in a movie based on the Dark Phoenix Saga = monologuing?

Her not speaking is sort of the point. That is the character the film
portrayed. She was a person who had become lost. Almost inhuman and was getting worse and worse until she snapped at the end of the film. She had no need to communicate feelings or ideas. She was above and beyond that. Jean "cried out" to Logan, but Dark Phoenix was essentially in control, just as she was in the comics version of events, several times, in fact.

Now, maybe you don't LIKE that, or would have done it differently (I think it worked well, but had I written the script, would have handled it with more interpersonal conflict), but it was derived from faithful elements of the storyline.

In this discussion about her muteness being faithful or not, I was referring to the "faithful" nature of the character, where Dark Phoenix basically monologues. We were discussing this in terms of whether or not a mute Jean was faithful to the original source material, and whether being faithful to that would have been appropriate for this franchise.

But fine. We'll go this route.

A couple lines fleshing out her character in what sense?

What did you want to hear Jean talk about while she was mute that she didn't already show in her performance, or an an earlier, or later scene?

If only all movies knew the secret to developing all troubled characters: keep them from ever speaking and look slightly menacing! The audience will automatically know why he/she made illogical decisions fur shur!!

I feel bad for you if that's all you got out of Famke's performance, was that she wasn't talking and looked menacing.

Anyway, Ratner and friends ruined the X-franchise for me. Mainly because I can't picture an X4 being anywhere near the quality of the first two. Too many retcons are needed, and if that happens, than all credibility is automatically lost. And if these prequels are anything like Wolverine, than the franchise is doomed.

The way all credibility in the X-Men mythology is lost when people die and come back to life? Oh. Wait...

 

[slothbp]

I haave my opinions same as you. And I'm not bending. The simple fact is that the X-men were almost all together for The Last Stand. In the previous films, everyone was seperate. While they were for the most part fighting one person each, they still used alot of teamwork and training. Somtheing the last two lacked. Which makes X-Men three better in my OPIONION.

 

[Superman]

Saw this interview today with Brett Ratner.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2009/09/09/qaamp_a_brett_ratner_on_beverly_hills_co

He's not a huge fan of the comic book community, to say the least. Says he "saved the franchise." Sheesh! Also says he never read the comic books and the old cartoons were "the same *****ing thing." Interesting.

Also like this quote "I'm kind of the Anti-Christ to these comic book geeks. Every single person that wrote **** went to see that movie multiple times."

Saw it once and that's all I needed to know it was crap.

What an ass. He kills the X Men franchise, Along with half the X-men, With that crap he calls a movie and then has the nerve to think he "Saved it?" Please.

 

[The Guard]

But Jean was still in there, so you expect her to say SOMETHING to her friends, at least Logan when she called out to him to the woods and he came for crying out loud.

That's exactly the point. You expect it...and Logan expects it...and then it doesn't happen. This is intentional on the part of the writers. It's not that they're too stupid to figure out a scene between Logan and Jean, it's that the whole point of the scene is to show just how far gone she is. You see, instead of her reaching out to him, because you and Logan have been expecting to see the old Jean come forward and reach out again, just how far gone she is, that she lets Magneto attack Wolverine, and essentially make her decisions for her for a while. That's the entire point of her character arc in the film.

The muteness and zombification werent helping factors when trying to the get the duality of the character across, and it especially made less sympathetic, I felt nothing for Jean come the end of the movie, nothing.

Again.

It's Dark Phoenix.

Not Two-Face.

The duality of Dark Phoenix has always been Jean's struggle to control her powers (Seen in X2), which leads to Dark Phoenix taking over. Once she becomes Dark Phoenix, there's generally not much of a struggle until Jean turns back, usually right before she is killed or diminished into Phoenix or Jean again.

If you felt nothing, I'm sorry, that's on you. Famke and those around her gave fantastic, heartfelt, and powerful performances, and the concept alone, what happened to Jean, simply for being who she is, is powerful, and her not making speeches about how she's feeling every few scenes (when how she's feeling is obvious) doesn't change that.

I havent heard anyone asking for big monologue's, but give us SOMETHING to work with, we didnt know how Jean was feeling for the WHOLE 2nd half of the movie, as she just stared blankly into space, show SOME regret about killing the 2 most important people in your whole world. She wouldnt even have to speak for this, show a scene were she is crying to herself away from the crowd, but the writers, director studio were too busy getting to the next action scene.

If you didn't know what Jean was feeling for the whole second half of the movie...you weren't watching Famke Janssen's performance.

Regrets? She didn't HAVE any regrets. She was beyond that.

She had succumbed to Dark Phoenix.

And Dark Phoenix doesn't cry over people she's killed.

JEAN GREY did, however, and DID, but after Dark Phoenix began to take control and killed Xavier, there was no turning back. Why would she suddenly have cried over people she killed?

There was conflict in the cartoon, yes, right before she turned back into Jean. And the movie had that as well, in a similar manner, right before she turned back into Jean.

Again, what you feel is kind of "on you". "Serves her right" is a valid response to Jean's actions. She did some horrible things, and if not stopped, would have likely done more. Just like comic book Dark Phoenix and cartoon Dark Phoenix.

There's no "one thing" you should be feeling when Phoenix dies. It's tragic, it's potentially just when she dies/is killed, and it's powerful overall. The comics, cartoon and film all have these elements.

People praised her for her performance IN THE 1ST HALF of the movie, not the 2nd, because she did **** all in the 2nd half. I actor's/actressed face can provide the viewer with more than words ever could, but blankly staring into the screen gives us nothing.

I recall her being praised across the board, and specifically recall people saying that even without dialogue, she gave a good performance. What, did her performance suddenly suck in the forest? It certainly didn't suck at the end of the film, especially when she's confronting Wolverine.

And she wasn't just staring blankly the entire time she was "mute". That's just a ridiculous assessment of her performance, and does Famke a disservice. There were things going on under the surface.

If I ever get the time I will, but it wont be anytime soon, its a stretch for me to reply to these long posts.

Fair enough. If we have to discuss one element at a time, we can. We can compile a list that way. Might be able to draw some other posters into it as well.

I couldnt disagree more with this paragraph, X-fans and the general public alike LOVE the first 2 x-movies, the same cannot be said for X3, one of the biggest complaints about X3 was about how unfaithful it is, but because you say its the most faithful, we are all supposed to change our tune and listen to you?

I said nothing about how much people love which movie.

No, you're not just supposed to listen to me because I say it. What is discovered by assessing the very story and character elements of the films is that X3 is more faithful to the source material than X-MEN and X2 were.

So let's discuss it. Again, we can do it piece by piece if you need to.

Sorry Guard, there is a reason X3 is the most disliked of the franchise, even on here it is more disliked than Wolverine, a poll proved this.

People are pissed because Cyclops died and because it wasn't two and a half hours long, and the best thing they've ever seen.

The rest of the issues people have with X3 are Basically the EXACT SAME KINDS OF ISSUES they had with X-MEN and X2. They will generally excuse or ignore the flaws in X-MEN and X2 to a certain extent, especially when comparing them to X3, because no major characters died.

People set themselves up to be disappointed and overhyped themselves, and many were disappointed because they went into the film with an extremely black and white and completely unrealistic mindset that many haven't been able to get past, even years after its release. That's basically what it comes down to over the years. Its not technical issues with the film, or even a terrible script, or bad acting. It's apparent in every single discussion and argument I have with anyone about the film, they're just pissed to high heaven over a few elements of the movie and cannot get past it.

Yeah, Stryker wasnt in Weapon X, but Rogue wouldnt take the cure, Scott, despite initially leaving, wouldnt abandon the school and leadership

You realize...you're starting to make a list with this kind of talk.

You just keep being wrong about Scott.

First, Scott DID quit the team in the comics. He abandoned the school, the team, and his leadership position when he did so.

Second, there's nothing, absolutely nothing in X3 that states that Cyclops was never going to get better or rejoin the team. He was simply depressed because he'd just had a HORRIBLE thing happen to him. Which is not only faithful to comic book events, as pointed out above, but also fairly realistic in psychological terms. So please, enough with this nonsense about that not being a faithful element.

Xavier wouldnt give up on Scott because he has changed since Jean's death either, Angel wouldnt make it to San Francisco to New York at the same time the X-Jet did, Storm wouldnt give on Jean as easily as she did, I could go on, but you think you get my point.

Angel obviously did not get there under his own power. Should the movie have shown where he came from? Yes. But that would have destroyed any surprise factor in him being there to save the day if you just keep thinking "Wait, didn't Angel stow away on the X-Jet. I bet he'll save his dad now!".

It was a 90 minute film. Cry me a river that we didn't get Storm giving outreach efforts to Jean. Storm did exactly what she has done in the comics over the years, albeit in a compressed version of events. She prepared to defend innocents against the enemy, even when that was Jean (Didn't she physically attack Dark Phoenix in the comics?). Nevermind that without Storm saying "She made her choice, we have a job to do", there's literally no drama to Wolverine going after Jean and being one of the few who tries to bring her back. And it makes even more sense in terms of this franchise, because Storm and Jean don't exactly have the same relationship they had in the comics, but Jean and Logan WERE fairly close in the movies.

But Scott wasnt a changed man to the extent that Xavier would give Storm the mansion once he was gone, nor would Xavier give up on Scott so easily.

Whoever said Xavier had given up on Scott? Xavier certainly didn't.

1. Storm is a leader at the school already, and clearly one of Xavier's favorites/best. Him wanting her to take over is natural, especially since Scott, before the events of X2, was likely, as the strategic leader of the X-Men, more suited for the combat side of things, not the classroom (we saw Scott teaching an auto/motorcycle class in X-MEN, but never an actual school/educational course).

2. There's nothing to suggest Xavier was giving up on Scott when he told Storm he hoped she'd take over the school one day, and just because she said "But I thought Scott...", doesn't mean that Scott also wouldn't have a role in the school, or that Xavier was deciding to never give Scott another chance. All Xavier said is "Scott's a changed man". He didn't say "I will never trust Scott again" or "Scott will not get better", he was preparing a potential backup plan in case Scott didn't get better. Which is smart.

Xavier in the comics and films expects people to try to find things out for themselves. He always has. He doesn't hold his students/teachers hands. He expects them to fight through adversity and to figure things out on their own. And when they don't, he does not force them to excel, and he does not reward them, either.

Its not frankly, its in your opinion, which you happen to think is definitive

It's not just my opinion, it's something that can be logically reasoned out by simply assessing the story and character elements in each film. I am perfectly willing to do so. Make a list. We'll discuss it. In pieces, if we need to.

Anyone expecting these things was foolish IMO, they were never going to be there and had no place there

Careful. Your own argument can apply to some of the issues you yourself had with X3.

No you cant, we have scene what Rogue's powers can do, explosions going off in the background and Storm shouting at Logan isnt unique, its more cliche than anything. And I found the power usage in X2 far more unique, especially in regards to Kitty.

...

How is "No you can't" even a remotely relevant response to what I said?
Did I use the word "can"?

Almost everything is cliche. Don't start that nonsense.

We hadn't even seen the Danger Room up to that point, so it simply EXISTING is a unique element of X3. A DAYS OF FUTURE PAST futuristic warzone setting makes it a bit more unique as well.

We hadn't seen what Rogue's powers can do in an intense combat setting, making her appearance in the Danger Room unique. Her stealing Pyro's powers to save herself or to save cops is not remotely the same thing as the way she used her powers in the Danger Room, and you know it.

Storm used her physical abilities and wind powers far more creatively in X3 than she had in prior films, and her combat sequence in the Danger Room in X3 is the most action she's had, short of when she was on wires fighting Toad. I think we all know which sequence made her look more impressive and unique in terms of power useage.

Colossus, in the Danger Room sequence alone, has a more physical role and more unique power useage than he did in all of X2.

Ditto Bobby, who displays more power in the Danger Room sequence than he did in X-MEN or X2.

Ditto Kitty Pryde, who had a far more unique and creative use of power than in X-MEN and X2.

Ditto Wolverine, for that matter. I don't recall seeing him get tossed through the air quite that far in X-MEN or X2.

Pretty sure the Sentinel is unique to the franchise, as was the setting of their battle, the use of lasers, etc.

So there are several elements that set it apart.

Exactly, sums up my feelings perfectly, I'm not asking for 20 min monologues, but say SOMETHING. But that would interrupt the action scene's to much for ADD Ratner.

What the hell are you talking about? The scene between Magneto, Wolverine and Jean was a character sequence that happened AFTER the big action. She didn't say anything because that was a choice the filmmakers made. To have Jean be less human, and more of a zombie type.

 

[Mad Ones]

No one's talking about a monologue. That's just stupid. What I wanted was more from her. She could have said something to Logan in the woods. She could have told him how she was feeling, how hard she's struggling not to lose it, why she chose to go with Magneto (when she knows he's using her as a weapon, etc). I wanted to see more scenes of her switching between Jean and Dark Phoenix (which was never even mentioned in the film). The way they did was L-A-Z-Y. Famke was completely fantastic in the infirmary scene, and I wanted to see more of that, especially in the emotional climax of the story. But no, only Hugh Jackman was allowed to act in that scene!

The last half of the movie Jean just stood there and stared. It's as simple as that. You could read really into it, and interpret a twitch of the eyebrows or something ridiculous like that. But they gave her nothing to do. There is this fantastic deleted scene on the Bridge where she actually looked conflicted. But they deleted it! Perfect example of the poor pacing and characterization. Take away a scene that adds a little depth to the character, and helps the transition from dusk to night.

My friend, who has no knowledge whatsoever of X-men, thought Jean was just pure evil. And that's probably what the majority of the audience thought as well. And that's not faithful at all. Jean was the true hero of the Dark Phoenix Saga, but in the movie it was Wolverine and only him. The scenes where she was struggling, and, yuhknow, acting were fantastic. There just weren't enough of them, especially in the last half.

If every character that died came back to life, if every character that got the cure was un-cured, don't you think that would lose the next movie credibility? That would make it seem like any consequence doesn't matter, and no one is in danger ever. Yeah, I know that's what the comic's are like, but not this franchise.

 

[Warhammer]

edit

 

[The Overlord]

X-2 had better action and pacing then X-3.

 

[X-Maniac]

No one's talking about a monologue. That's just stupid. What I wanted was more from her. She could have said something to Logan in the woods. She could have told him how she was feeling, how hard she's struggling not to lose it, why she chose to go with Magneto (when she knows he's using her as a weapon, etc). I wanted to see more scenes of her switching between Jean and Dark Phoenix (which was never even mentioned in the film). The way they did was L-A-Z-Y. Famke was completely fantastic in the infirmary scene, and I wanted to see more of that, especially in the emotional climax of the story. But no, only Hugh Jackman was allowed to act in that scene!

The last half of the movie Jean just stood there and stared. It's as simple as that. You could read really into it, and interpret a twitch of the eyebrows or something ridiculous like that. But they gave her nothing to do. There is this fantastic deleted scene on the Bridge where she actually looked conflicted. But they deleted it! Perfect example of the poor pacing and characterization. Take away a scene that adds a little depth to the character, and helps the transition from dusk to night.

My friend, who has no knowledge whatsoever of X-men, thought Jean was just pure evil. And that's probably what the majority of the audience thought as well. And that's not faithful at all. Jean was the true hero of the Dark Phoenix Saga, but in the movie it was Wolverine and only him. The scenes where she was struggling, and, yuhknow, acting were fantastic. There just weren't enough of them, especially in the last half.

If every character that died came back to life, if every character that got the cure was un-cured, don't you think that would lose the next movie credibility? That would make it seem like any consequence doesn't matter, and no one is in danger ever. Yeah, I know that's what the comic's are like, but not this franchise.

It's pretty obvious that the Phoenix personality emerged in its full, destructive form in the battle with Xavier. After that, everything changed. Jean managed to call out to Wolverine later, but that was about it. The Phoenix was silent, unpredictable, unfriendly, she just wanted to do exactly as she pleased, much like the young Jean as a child. The death of Xavier severed all ties to the X-Men, it was a point of no return.

 

[Fresh Prince]

I felt they focused all 3 films too much on Wolverine....Especially X-Men 3.