The Dark Knight Rises Bruce's enemy

[COMPO]

In both Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, Bruce has had to face a challenge taht was against Bruce vWayne and not Batman. In BB it was Earle taking over his company and in TDK it was Reese knowing his secret. In TDKR I'd like to either his company going bankrupt or people investigating his company etc.

any suggestions?

 

[RustyCage]

Hugo Strange, maybe.

 

[COMPO]

I kind of meant like a normal person villain, who isn't really a super villain

 

[Boom]

Bane, assuming he discovers Batman's secret identity.

 

[COMPO]

yeah but Bane wouldn't really care about the man behind the bat and more about Batman himself. Though Bane interfering with Wayne Industries would be cool, like he takes money from them to slowly bankrupt Wayne as well cause his shareholder to distrust him causing his Wayne and Batman legacy to crumble around him.

 

[The Joker]

Bane knew Batman was Bruce in Knightfall, but he didn't really care. He was more interested in his activities as Batman.

 

[COMPO]

I'd like Bruce to have the police investigate Wayne Industries as well as trying to find Coleman Reese.

 

[RustyCage]

I kind of meant like a normal person villain, who isn't really a super villain

He doesn't have to become a super villain in this film to fit that role, necessarily. It could be sort of like he was in Prey, adapted appropriately of course. Bane could still be a much larger focus and threat by comparison.

 

[batman11]

Bruce's greatest enemy could very well be himself. The events of TDK leave lots of room for guilt trippin (sounds groovy...), and it would actually be pretty interesting to see some self-deprecation themes come into play. Although I'm not sure it's something Nolan would cover, to me, it wouldn't feel totally out of left-field, and I would definitely welcome it. In one way or another, a common trend in Nolan's films is that his protagonists have all been flawed characters that subtly comment on facets of the human condition. It would be neat to have one of these characters self-aware of their flaws, and actually voice their concerns/disappointment with such issues. We haven't really seen Nolan go that route yet (although there are definitely elements of it in his films - Bruce in BB saying that he failed to save Gotham, reflecting on his failures in TDK after Rachel's death, Cobb confronting Mal about her projection not being good enough for him, etc. etc.), and I think Bruce in Rises would be a good opportunity for some more exploration and experimentation. And there are multiple ways to go.

You could have him harp on himself for not being able to save Rachel and Dent and Gotham, but at the same time, you could have Bruce angry with the fact that he feels so much pain and guilt - he despises that he could be so weak. I think an intriguing element to add to Bruce's arc would be that of his "invulnerability," which I discussed with Saint when we were chatting about the aftermath of a beat-down from Bane. Perhaps it would be cool to not only touch upon that in a physical and mental sense, but an emotional one as well. One of Bale's final scenes in The Prestige comes to mind, where Borden is frustrated with himself () for not being smarter than Angier. "Why can't you out-think him!?!" Again, that idea of Batman being "invulnerable" leaves a lot of doors open, and paints an interesting canvas for the conclusion of Bruce's arc. Just put yourself in his shoes:

"I'm supposed to be this elemental, terrifying being...this inhuman symbol that will not quit, and yet here I am, physically broken and emotionally compromised. I'm grieving over lost friends, like a man, whereas I embarked upon the path of becoming a legend. And most importantly, I'm stuck questioning whether or not I'm actually capable of being that legend, that 'Batman' that I think I should be. What do I do now?"

Gordon also factors in to the issue of "invulnerability." How exactly does he view Batman, especially now after they've been through so much together? What does he think of this man, who puts so much on the line, night in and night out, and only seems to get crapped on for it? How can such a man take it all without cracking?

I think that type of thought process (I'm referring the part about Bruce's mind above) would definitely be something fresh, and it adds a new level to the usual superhero "brooding." Instead of the hero pondering giving up the cape and cowl, or how hard it is to do what he does, we get a man who wants to devote himself to the ideal, and squirms at the notion that his human emotions and struggles are holding him back. And then of course, Selina, Alfred, Gordon, Lucius, and the "why do we fall?" idea can all come into play. Bruce may think that his humanity is holding him back, but perhaps he learns that it's the only thing left that separates him from someone like Bane, the Joker, etc. It's what makes him so unique. It's that sliver of humanity, that fraction of hope and of faith that remains. This point sheds a little more light on what exactly makes Batman a watchful protector, as opposed to some nut in a costume who happens to not murder (surely this 'murder' part will bring out the vultures and be argued ).

Anyhow, I'm almost 100% certain that's not the type of answer that the OP was looking for in regards to the topic, but the thread name inspired me to write up my thoughts on who, aside from the main villains, Bruce's "enemy" could be.

And on that note, I have the perfect tagline for Rises:

The greatest battle lies within.

Wait...

Wasn't that used for something else...

Another third movie...

 

[Yurka]

Bane trying to bring down both the Batman as well as Bruce Wayne would be pretty awesome, a la Knightfall.

 

[RustyCage]

Brilliant post, batman11!

I seriously hope they do something like that, it's too perfect an opportunity to pass up.

 

[COMPO]

^I like this idea kind of something Bruce needs to access if he's to do this job forever.

 

[Knykolous]

Hugo Strange, maybe.

What is the obsession with having another villain? Haven't we learned our lesson in the past with overcrowding a movie with baddies? We already have two very heavy villains who need a good amount of development and screen time. Adding another big name would just over crowd the movie and turn it into batman and robin.

 

[RustyCage]

What is the obsession with having another villain? Haven't we learned our lesson in the past with overcrowding a movie with baddies? We already have two very heavy villains who need a good amount of development and screen time. Adding another big name would just over crowd the movie and turn it into batman and robin.

It didn't with TDK or BB.

 

[COMPO]

well Earle and Reese were sort of minor 'villains' which is sort of what I'm after a 'minor' villains who are a hinderence to Bruce

 

[RustyCage]

well Earle and Reese were sort of minor 'villains' which is sort of what I'm after a 'minor' villains who are a hinderence to Bruce

I think Strange can be minor by comparison to Bane (especially since Scarecrow/Ra's got some of his more substantial 'supervillain' moments in Begins), while still upping the ante from Earle and Reese. I felt like Reese was more of a threat than Earle, so it would be in keeping with the overall theme of escalation in Nolan's films.

 

[batman11]

Brilliant post, batman11!

I seriously hope they do something like that, it's too perfect an opportunity to pass up.

Thank you, kind sir.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Bruce's greatest enemy could very well be himself. The events of TDK leave lots of room for guilt trippin (sounds groovy...), and it would actually be pretty interesting to see some self-deprecation themes come into play. Although I'm not sure it's something Nolan would cover, to me, it wouldn't feel totally out of left-field, and I would definitely welcome it. In one way or another, a common trend in Nolan's films is that his protagonists have all been flawed characters that subtly comment on facets of the human condition. It would be neat to have one of these characters self-aware of their flaws, and actually voice their concerns/disappointment with such issues. We haven't really seen Nolan go that route yet (although there are definitely elements of it in his films - Bruce in BB saying that he failed to save Gotham, reflecting on his failures in TDK after Rachel's death, Cobb confronting Mal about her projection not being good enough for him, etc. etc.), and I think Bruce in Rises would be a good opportunity for some more exploration and experimentation. And there are multiple ways to go.

You could have him harp on himself for not being able to save Rachel and Dent and Gotham, but at the same time, you could have Bruce angry with the fact that he feels so much pain and guilt - he despises that he could be so weak. I think an intriguing element to add to Bruce's arc would be that of his "invulnerability," which I discussed with Saint when we were chatting about the aftermath of a beat-down from Bane. Perhaps it would be cool to not only touch upon that in a physical and mental sense, but an emotional one as well. One of Bale's final scenes in The Prestige comes to mind, where Borden is frustrated with himself () for not being smarter than Angier. "Why can't you out-think him!?!" Again, that idea of Batman being "invulnerable" leaves a lot of doors open, and paints an interesting canvas for the conclusion of Bruce's arc. Just put yourself in his shoes:

"I'm supposed to be this elemental, terrifying being...this inhuman symbol that will not quit, and yet here I am, physically broken and emotionally compromised. I'm grieving over lost friends, like a man, whereas I embarked upon the path of becoming a legend. And most importantly, I'm stuck questioning whether or not I'm actually capable of being that legend, that 'Batman' that I think I should be. What do I do now?"

Gordon also factors in to the issue of "invulnerability." How exactly does he view Batman, especially now after they've been through so much together? What does he think of this man, who puts so much on the line, night in and night out, and only seems to get crapped on for it? How can such a man take it all without cracking?

I think that type of thought process (I'm referring the part about Bruce's mind above) would definitely be something fresh, and it adds a new level to the usual superhero "brooding." Instead of the hero pondering giving up the cape and cowl, or how hard it is to do what he does, we get a man who wants to devote himself to the ideal, and squirms at the notion that his human emotions and struggles are holding him back. And then of course, Selina, Alfred, Gordon, Lucius, and the "why do we fall?" idea can all come into play. Bruce may think that his humanity is holding him back, but perhaps he learns that it's the only thing left that separates him from someone like Bane, the Joker, etc. It's what makes him so unique. It's that sliver of humanity, that fraction of hope and of faith that remains. This point sheds a little more light on what exactly makes Batman a watchful protector, as opposed to some nut in a costume who happens to not murder (surely this 'murder' part will bring out the vultures and be argued ).

Anyhow, I'm almost 100% certain that's not the type of answer that the OP was looking for in regards to the topic, but the thread name inspired me to write up my thoughts on who, aside from the main villains, Bruce's "enemy" could be.

And on that note, I have the perfect tagline for Rises:

The greatest battle lies within.

Wait...

Wasn't that used for something else...

Another third movie...

Great post, batman11!

Just wanted to respond to the part I bolded...that could very well tie in with the exchange Bruce had with Ra's in BB about his compassion being a weakness: 'That's why it's so important. It separates us from them'(in other words, I think he's already aware of the importance of his humanity, he's just overlooked it after all the crap he's been through). I think Bruce needs to remember this in TDKR, in order to fully accept his destiny as Batman. Anyway, I'd love it if at least some of the aspects you mentioned in your post would be addressed in TDKR.

 

[batman11]

Just wanted to respond to the part I bolded...that could very well tie in with the exchange Bruce had with Ra's in BB about his compassion being a weakness: 'That's why it's so important. It separates us from them'(in other words, I think he's already aware of the importance of his humanity, he's just overlooked it after all the crap he's been through).

Yes, definitely. Good connection.

And I totally agree with the notion of Bruce knowing/overlooking things, or accepting things without having a full realization of his choices yet. You bring up a good point about humanity here, and on several occasions, I've posted about how by the end of TDK, I feel that Bruce has shown that need for Batman that Rachel voices in her letter, yet he doesn't entirely realize it yet. Rachel knew it, and he's on the path to discovering it; the concluding elements of TDK set that journey in motion. I think/hope a large part of his arc in TDKR will be piecing everything together, leaving Bruce in a place where there is both clarity and certainty. So far we've seen a range of emotions from him, peaking with overconfidence ("I am going to stop you!" / "One man or the entire mob? He can wait."), and hitting a low with depression and doubt ("I wanted to save Gotham...I failed." / "Did I bring this on her? I was meant to inspire good. Not madness. Not death."). With Rises, it will be interesting to see the culmination of his inner turmoil, which is why it's so exciting that this is planned and written as an ending.

Chills man, chills. t:

 

[RustyCage]

You guys rock. Just had to say that. t:

 

[The Joker]

Bruce's greatest enemy could very well be himself. The events of TDK leave lots of room for guilt trippin (sounds groovy...), and it would actually be pretty interesting to see some self-deprecation themes come into play. Although I'm not sure it's something Nolan would cover, to me, it wouldn't feel totally out of left-field, and I would definitely welcome it. In one way or another, a common trend in Nolan's films is that his protagonists have all been flawed characters that subtly comment on facets of the human condition. It would be neat to have one of these characters self-aware of their flaws, and actually voice their concerns/disappointment with such issues. We haven't really seen Nolan go that route yet (although there are definitely elements of it in his films - Bruce in BB saying that he failed to save Gotham, reflecting on his failures in TDK after Rachel's death, Cobb confronting Mal about her projection not being good enough for him, etc. etc.), and I think Bruce in Rises would be a good opportunity for some more exploration and experimentation. And there are multiple ways to go.

You could have him harp on himself for not being able to save Rachel and Dent and Gotham, but at the same time, you could have Bruce angry with the fact that he feels so much pain and guilt - he despises that he could be so weak. I think an intriguing element to add to Bruce's arc would be that of his "invulnerability," which I discussed with Saint when we were chatting about the aftermath of a beat-down from Bane. Perhaps it would be cool to not only touch upon that in a physical and mental sense, but an emotional one as well. One of Bale's final scenes in The Prestige comes to mind, where Borden is frustrated with himself () for not being smarter than Angier. "Why can't you out-think him!?!" Again, that idea of Batman being "invulnerable" leaves a lot of doors open, and paints an interesting canvas for the conclusion of Bruce's arc. Just put yourself in his shoes:

"I'm supposed to be this elemental, terrifying being...this inhuman symbol that will not quit, and yet here I am, physically broken and emotionally compromised. I'm grieving over lost friends, like a man, whereas I embarked upon the path of becoming a legend. And most importantly, I'm stuck questioning whether or not I'm actually capable of being that legend, that 'Batman' that I think I should be. What do I do now?"

Gordon also factors in to the issue of "invulnerability." How exactly does he view Batman, especially now after they've been through so much together? What does he think of this man, who puts so much on the line, night in and night out, and only seems to get crapped on for it? How can such a man take it all without cracking?

I think that type of thought process (I'm referring the part about Bruce's mind above) would definitely be something fresh, and it adds a new level to the usual superhero "brooding." Instead of the hero pondering giving up the cape and cowl, or how hard it is to do what he does, we get a man who wants to devote himself to the ideal, and squirms at the notion that his human emotions and struggles are holding him back. And then of course, Selina, Alfred, Gordon, Lucius, and the "why do we fall?" idea can all come into play. Bruce may think that his humanity is holding him back, but perhaps he learns that it's the only thing left that separates him from someone like Bane, the Joker, etc. It's what makes him so unique. It's that sliver of humanity, that fraction of hope and of faith that remains. This point sheds a little more light on what exactly makes Batman a watchful protector, as opposed to some nut in a costume who happens to not murder (surely this 'murder' part will bring out the vultures and be argued ).

Anyhow, I'm almost 100% certain that's not the type of answer that the OP was looking for in regards to the topic, but the thread name inspired me to write up my thoughts on who, aside from the main villains, Bruce's "enemy" could be.

And on that note, I have the perfect tagline for Rises:

The greatest battle lies within.

Wait...

Wasn't that used for something else...

Another third movie...

I knew there was a reason I added you to my buddy list

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I think/hope a large part of his arc in TDKR will be piecing everything together, leaving Bruce in a place where there is both clarity and certainty.

This is what I'm expecting as well.

So far we've seen a range of emotions from him, peaking with overconfidence ("I am going to stop you!" / "One man or the entire mob? He can wait."), and hitting a low with depression and doubt ("I wanted to save Gotham...I failed." / "Did I bring this on her? I was meant to inspire good. Not madness. Not death."). With Rises, it will be interesting to see the culmination of his inner turmoil, which is why it's so exciting that this is planned and written as an ending.

Chills man, chills. t:

When you think about it, Bruce really has gone through a lot during these two movies, hasn't he? I definitely agree that it's going to be interesting to see the culmination of his emotional turmoil(again, when you think about it, Bruce's character has taken us on a really compelling ride so far, in other words he's an interesting and complex character...and his story's not finished yett. Damn, 2012 seems so far off! The anticipation's killing me!

 

[batman11]

You guys rock. Just had to say that. t:

Tell me something I don't know.

I knew there was a reason I added you to my buddy list

Bowing smiley eh? I knew there was a reason I accepted your request. t:

When you think about it, Bruce really has gone through a lot during these two movies, hasn't he? I definitely agree that it's going to be interesting to see the culmination of his emotional turmoil(again, when you think about it, Bruce's character has taken us on a really compelling ride so far, in other words he's an interesting and complex character...and his story's not finished yett. Damn, 2012 seems so far off! The anticipation's killing me!

Yep. The wait has only just begun...

On that note, I figured I'd make a new thread regarding Bruce's characterization, seeing as we're sorely lacking one on the boards, and we've derailed this thread long enough.

We can of course continue here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=347747

 

[TheBatman072]

Hugo Strange or Roman Sionis.