Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[lorenzovanmatte]

Angel;

The Good;
Awesome fight scenes with both The Three and at the Bronze. Lovely stuff with Buffy intrducing Angel to Joyce, wonderful scene between Angel and Darla hinting at great things to come. I love Joyce's denial over the barbecue fork and Cordy's rage over the girl in the same dress. The big shock that Angel is a vampire which I must say I didn't see coming at all (he gives Buffy a cross in WTTH but it's in a box!). Love the diary misunderstanding too and the shock of Buffy coming home to see a bleeding Joyce in Angel's arms.

The Bad;
The Master's killing of The Three (lame name or what?) is stupid. Also they seem to give up awfully easily, that or Joyce just walks right past them? (maybe they know better than to mess with momma Summers?)

Best line;
Buffy "Stay the hell away from us!"

Observations and questions;
Anyone else disturbed by The Master's relationship with The Anointed? Joyce is the first cast member to be bitten by a vamp (although despite being a huge part of the series she's never actually a Scooby) whilst Angel is the first to be shot. Why don't vamps use guns more often? According to Joss it goes against their demonic nature. We have Xander dancing, always a treat. Angel kills his first vamp onscreen although we later learn he's killed at least 2 prior to this. The first of the many deaths of Darla

Here Buffy really kicks into high gear, the Buffy/Angel romance is set on it's course, we see the Darla/Angel relationship for the first time, it turns an OK show with an attractive cast into a brilliant show
5/5

 

[Harry_Lime02]

Does dip a little in quality after Buffy kills the Turok-Han but once Faith and Caleb turn up it's up there with season 3. Do you mean Spuffy in season 6 or season 7?

Yeah, I meant season 6.

To be honest, I think the only truly great episode of season 7 is the last one. Oh, and the one with Andrew and his video camera.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Yeah, I meant season 6.

To be honest, I think the only truly great episode of season 7 is the last one. Oh, and the one with Andrew and his video camera.

Personally I think there's some real winners in season 7, Him, Potential, Selfless, Lies My Parents Told Me, Storyteller and of course Chosen they're great

Ok, The Puppet Show;

The Good;
The introduction of Snyder. Cordy's performance and the hair gag with Giles. The triple Keyser Soze, Buffy's relationship with Sid. The exciting finale, Snyders reaction to it and the Scoobies scene at the end. Don't you just love the fact that Buffy the superhero runs into her mum's arms when she get's scared in the night? Something only a female hero could do, what would we think of Clark Kent if he did that on Smallville?

The Bad;
Not much, a very strong episode, easily one of the best of the first season

Best line;
Buffy; Euuuugghhhh, dummy! They freak me out, ever since I was little.
Willow; What happened?
Buffy; I saw a dummy, it freaked me out, there really wasn't a backstory there
(anyone else reminded of Gremlins?)

Observations and questions;
Our first hint that there are other individuals figthing the forces of darkness like Whistler and Doyle. The scene the Scoobies perform at the end is from Oedipus which Angelus references in season 4 of Angel. It was painted by Grant Wood who Riley refers to in season 4. Cordy sings 'The Greatest Love of all' which she also sings for Lorne on Angel. She hasn't the best voice. Giles in bondage, the first of a long line of Scoobies to be tied/chained up. Snyder obviously going to be a lot harder on Buffy than Flutie was although as an authority figure that probably works better for the series. At this point though he doesn't really seem to know what's going on (does he ever?). Flutie was a nice guy but has the misfortune to be the 2nd recurring character killed in the course of the series. The police put the butcher knife in a plastic bag? Don't they have some better form of container? Willow suffers from stage fright. Willow is clever enough to know that 841 has a square root of 29 but how does Xander know that to ask her? A shame Joyce doesn't come to the talent show. Will plays the piano?

One of the best eps of season 1, I give it 4 and a half out of 5

 

[Hush]

I hated Tara as well and it sucks but be prepared to see alot of her as she isnt going anywhere anytime soon. She's officially a Scooby member even if she isnt in the opening

Damn. Well the least Joss could have done was cast a better looking gal, i know that sounds mean but does anyone find her attractive in anyway>? I just finished season 4 and wow was Restless weird but that was also an extremely odd way to end a season. I hear 5 is good from you guys so I'm there and I just HOPE AND DREAM it is better and that riley dies a gruesome death.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I love Tara and Amber Benson. Season 4 she looks frumpy but her look gets better when they dont have her stuck in sheltered geek mode. And I dont think it wouldve felt right if they made the character any better looking than what we got.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Damn. Well the least Joss could have done was cast a better looking gal, i know that sounds mean but does anyone find her attractive in anyway>? I just finished season 4 and wow was Restless weird but that was also an extremely odd way to end a season. I hear 5 is good from you guys so I'm there and I just HOPE AND DREAM it is better and that riley dies a gruesome death.

I LOVED Tara, sure she doesn't have the porn-star good looks of Buffy, Faith, Cordy etc but neither does Willow, Amber is a gorgeous woman and you should realise that if you've seen the ice cream truck scene in Restless. Wait until next season when she starts wearing the corsets, her cleavage is something else. Restless is a brilliant ep and season 5 is just as good.

Nighmares

The Good;
Buffy's dreams of the Master are truly terrifying as is his burying her alive which of course she'll experience for real in Bargaining. Giles' fear of not being able to read and Buffy dying are also excellent. Willow's stagefright and Cordy joining the chess club/bad hair brigade are utterly hilarious. It rather reminded me of the ep of Sabrina;TTW where Sabrina places a spell on her arch enemy Libby the haughty cheerleader turning her into a nerd only for Libby to become Queen of the nerds and start mocking the less clever. Semi-naked Nic Brendon who in the great comedy tradition wears embarassing boxer shorts. Some great CGI giant wasps. The Joyce/Buffy scenes. The tough guy whose mum turns up at school (don't know who he is but he resembles a character from Grease?)

The Bad;
The scene with Buffy and her dad is just too cruel. Apart from that, not much.

Best line;
Almost Xander's; Your balloon animals were pathetic!
But the winner is Joyce; Your father loves you dear but no more than I do

Observations and questions;
Xander suffers clourophobia (fear of clowns) whilst Willow suffers arachnaphobia (although she faces down a giant spider in season 7). He also fancies a teacher called Miss Tishler demonstrating his fondness for older women again. Willow says that there is marital tension in her House (and as we later learn in Xander's also). The Master says he met the last Slayer, did he kill her?
Here we have confirmation that Buffy was born in 1981 and is 15 turning 16 in this ep (so shame on you if you fancied her up to this point ) This begins the long tradition of disasterous birthdays for Buffy. First appearance of Hank Summers in the show. The only time we'll ever see Buffy as a vamp but she's still Buffy. You wonder if this is because it's just a nightmare and she's not truly been sired or even if a Slayer becomes a vamp that they're not evil, they're still the Slayer?
Great ep, 8 and half out of 10 again

 

[Hush]

I love Tara and Amber Benson. Season 4 she looks frumpy but her look gets better when they dont have her stuck in sheltered geek mode. And I dont think it wouldve felt right if they made the character any better looking than what we got.

I'm not saying she is like "OMG WTF YOUZ TEH UGLIEST!" but just that when you think of the caliber of women that have been on this show Emma Caulfield, Eliza Dushku, SMG, Hannigan and Charisma Carpenter. She looks frumpy and out of place to a certain extent. Plus her performances were not really up to snuff with the rest of the cast when she first got introduced in Season 4 and that didn't help her case in my book.

Season 5 is off to an interesting start and I'm very glad that Giles decided to stay but I know he will leave soon and that will be the most saddening departure ever.

 

[Havok83]

Damn. Well the least Joss could have done was cast a better looking gal, i know that sounds mean but does anyone find her attractive in anyway>? I just finished season 4 and wow was Restless weird but that was also an extremely odd way to end a season. I hear 5 is good from you guys so I'm there and I just HOPE AND DREAM it is better and that riley dies a gruesome death.

Season 5 is amazing and alternates between 3 as being my favorite. And sorry to say but you will be dissapointed on the Riley front

 

[Hush]

Ahh I figured I would but oh well Angel is still the man in my book and Riley is just a hold over til she meets Angel again, if that ever happens.

 

[jasontodd]

I'm not saying she is like "OMG WTF YOUZ TEH UGLIEST!" but just that when you think of the caliber of women that have been on this show Emma Caulfield, Eliza Dushku, SMG, Hannigan and Charisma Carpenter. She looks frumpy and out of place to a certain extent. Plus her performances were not really up to snuff with the rest of the cast when she first got introduced in Season 4 and that didn't help her case in my book.

Season 5 is off to an interesting start and I'm very glad that Giles decided to stay but I know he will leave soon and that will be the most saddening departure ever.

and casual

Yes I'm sure many men would kick her out of bed

 

[Hush]

OK she looks good there but go back to the 4th season and pull up screen caps where her flab (though not much) is popping out of her mid drift and tell me she looks that good? Again she is pretty but in her first apearances she is not.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

How come no matter how many posts we make on this thread the hit counter never goes up?

Amber's performance is great, you must remember the role she is playing is off an extremely shy, introverted girl. By seasons 5 and 6 she's blossomed into so much more As for Riley he was never onto a winner, he could never really fill Angel's shoes. A Slayer needs a little demon in her man....

Out of sight, out of mind;

The Good;
One of the best allegories yet for High School as hell. Real sense of menace to the knife floating behind Buffy although from what we've seen since it probably didn't pose a real threat to her. Cordelia starts to come more and more into her own here and some funny stuff from Snyder

The Bad;
Not much, very strong episode

Best line;
Cordelia; Oh my god, is she really wearing Laura Ashely?

Worst line;
Willow; Mitch was attacked by a floating bat?
Xander; Maybe it was a vampire bat? (GGRRRoooaaannn!)

Questions and observations:
So, the goverment know what's going on in Sunnydale and are exploiting it to their own ends? We see the beginnings of the Initiative here. A sign of the times that Marcie at the end is training to assasinate cult leaders as this was just after Waco. Nowadays of course she'd be after Osama and co. Interesting that the class are doing The Merchant of Venice, Marcie easily resembles the figure of Shylock.
If you've ever watched the DVD commentary for The Grudge SMG remembers the guy who played Ford in 'Lie to Me' appearing on Buffy but not Clea Duvall. Rewatching the ep you realise that she never has any scenes with visible Marcie so they probably never met. Harmony again, named for the first time. Cordy has passed her driving test to judge by her story of running the girl on the bike over. The scene where the teacher is nearly smothered by the plastic bag is HORRIBLE. First meeting between Giles and Angel. Cordy, Buffy, Willlow and Xander are all knocked out, the start of a grand scooby tradition. Ironically Giles who is so notorious for it stays conscious. Cordy and Buffy are also tied up, another Buffy cliche that will see much use. How exactly does Marcie get Cordy and Buffy to the Bronze? I gotta say, if faced with the choice of being gassed or risking an explosion I'd take explosion every time
If you'll pardon the pun it would have been lovely to 'see' Marcie again, maybe in season 7 Buffy could have been chained up and helpless only for her bonds to miraculously unravel? But if at her new school she's got friends etc won't she become visible again?
I don't know if it's deliberate but the title reminds me of the story where Soviet premier Breshnev is meeting the US President Nixon and during the chitchat he asks where the vice-president Spiro Agnew is? (some form of demon according to Angel and Fred's dad). Agnew was keeping a low profile at the time as he was under investigation for corruption so Nixon replied, "Oh, you know, out of sight, out of mind'. Breshnev looks at Nixon oddly then hurriedly walked away whereupon Nixon's translator tells him that Breshnev's translator interpreted 'out of sight, out of mind' as 'Invisible maniac'
Good ep, 4/5

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Sorry, missed one

Ok, 'I Robot, You Jane'

The Good;
Buffy's undercover look is hilarious. Here's Jenny, yay! The final scene with Buffy, Willow and Xander, sitting on the step bemoaning their lovelessness is WONDERFUL!

The Bad;
The robot Moloch simply looks stupid, not as bad as the mantis but close

Best Line;
Giles; I'll be back in the middle ages
Jenny; did you ever leave?

Observations and questions;
No Cordy or Angel. Some pretty strong stuff here, necks being broken, Fritz self-harming (a topic we'll see again in Blood Ties) and Dave hanging himself. Willow's first boyfriend although you might note that Will has a picture of herself and Giles in her locker. Of course it's twelve years ago so all the computer equipment seems just unbelievably clunky. Xander refers to his uncle working at the computer firm, is that the infamous Rory? Ironically given that the younger Scoobies end the episode bleakly contemplating the future alone here Giles his future girlfriend.
Are the monks who trap Moloch the same ones that create Dawn? ( they do nice work!)
Possible the weakest ep of season 1; I'll give it 2/5

Prophecy Girl

The Good;
Buffy's unjustified (but very human) rant at Giles, the wonderful slow motion fight with the vamp whilst Cordy is parking with a guy. Buffy accepting her fate for the sake of her friends and family.The Buffy/Master confrontation and her final battle with him. Xander listening to country music, the white man's blues. Xander practicing on Willow and Willow consequently turning him down. Cordy and Will finding the bodies. Cordy's car trick and the girls fleeing in terror. The Buffy/Joyce scene. Love Buffy's dress.

The Bad;
The tentacles from the Hellmouth look pretty weak. Also I thought the boy who get's killed is the same one as in the last ep but it's not, Cordy seems to have a new guy every week. I always think that's lame on TV, characters get boyfriends/girlfriends one week who mean the world to them then they're forgotten about the next ep.

Best line;
Angel; I like your dress
Buffy; Big hit with everyone

Questions and observations;
Buffy dies for the first time and is bitten by a vampire for the first but by no means the last time. Giles get's knocked out for the first time (by Buffy!). Jenny's back, yay! Presumably the reason Cordy is being so nice to Will and isn't mad at her boyfriend du jour is that it's one of the signs of the apocalypse?
So if Buffy had died for real what would have happened? Presumably Angel would have defeated the Master? Or the Initiative? No offence to Kendra but I figure this would have meant that Faith would be the Slayer and consequently Dawn would be HER sister. Faith would never have gone bad and Joyce would get over her grief by adopting Faith and Dawn as her foster children. Even so, in the Buffyverse death isn't necessarily for ever...?
Note that when Buffy comes back from the dead they play the show's theme full blast. According to Joss the theme starts off like a conventional horror theme but then kicks into rock and roll thrash because it signifies that Buffy and co won't conform to the horror stereotype, they won't take it any more. So we have Buffy dying just as the prophecy says, like all the Slayers before her but she rebels and comes back. If you wanted to see a feminist subtext, she refuses to be the victim, to accept the gender role assigned to her. I don't know if Joss intended it but someone at The Bronze once pointed out that the Scoobies are actually the cliched victims you'd find in any horror film, the sexy blonde, the athletic hunk, the *****y cheerleader, the hapless nerd, the wiseass jerk and the stuffy authority figure. But in Joss' show the victim's fight back and win.
Angel has a phone and Giles' know's his number.
Buffy actually says she feels stronger after Xander brings her back. She shouldn't of course, she should be weak as a kitten so maybe this is God's/the PTB's doing?
Now of course, at the end of this we see the characters walk off into the sunset and we have no idea if there will ever be a second season? If the series had stopped there it would have been a good ending and fondly remembered, we'd assume the Hellmouth was closed and that our characters would go on to lead fairly ordinary lives. Except for Angel, of course?
Couple of interesting lines. Xander says that if Willow is interested in Buffy she's playing it close to her chest. Cordy remarks that she doesn't know why she and Willow bother with boys and Willow agrees 'I hear you'
5/5 even with the stupid tentacles

One thing that occurs to me having watched Get it Done and season 8 is that the Slayer's power is rooted 'in the ground', maybe that's the link as to why the Master needed Buffy's blood to open the Hellmouth?

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

When she was bad;

The Good;
Buffy's 'Miss me' to the camera (which I inexcusably missed first time around). Xander and Willow's almost kiss (awwwwww! even the most foremost Tara/Willow or Willow/Oz fan must feel their heart breaking). Snyder and Giles' brilliant talk and walk and the first hints of Giles'/Jenny's attraction. Buffy's great training session with Giles, the incredibly creepy dream sequence where the Master-as-Giles tries to kill Buffy whilst Willow and Xander watch on unconcerned (she should have known it was a dream when Xander swapped his chocolate for an apple). The whole scene smacks of Freudian rape overtones, Buffy's father figure forcing himself upon her and penetrating her body with his fangs. Willow not being able to say the word B-I-T-C-H and Xander not being able to spell it (LOVE Giles' expression in this scene). The great Hank/Joyce scene (I figure this is the summer by the beach Dawn later refers to in Blood Ties), Cordy's sympathy with Buffy and characteristic bluntness about the truth about Sunnydale. The Buffy/Angel bedroom scene and the smoking-hot Buffy dancing with Xander at the Bronze. The trap and rescue of the Scoobies, Buffy's cathartic smashing the Master's bones, especially Buffy killing 2 vamps at once. All told, fan-bloody-tastic and a whole new start for Buffy.

The Bad;
The only thing I can find wrong with it is when the Scoobies figure out that Jenny is the vamps next target and rather than try to warn her just assume for no possible reason that they've already got her. Lazy writing! Also Willow wears her HORRIBLE yellow tights again

Best line;
Snyder; there are some things I can just smell, like a sixth sense
Giles; actually that would be one of the five
What the fanficcers thought; a slightly different take on this story here; http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3462832/1/Merciless_Mistress

Questions and observations;
So, you CAN bring a vampire back from the dead as we'll see later with Darla in Angel. One wonders why they don't try it more often but then with a few notable exceptions they don't really seem to care about one another so much. Joyce and Hank seem to have a pretty civilised divorce.
The whole look and feel of this ep is different, as though the first season was just a trial run and now it's time for the real thing to begin. Firstly, we have all the Scooby's except Buff and Angel knocked out and all but Buffy, Angel and Xander tied up. Secondly rewatching this ep you're very much struck by the sight of Buffy torturing the vamp for information to save her friends, ramming a silver cross down it's throat, the vampire equivalent of a red-hot poker. HMMMMMM?
Kinda puts 'waterboarding' and Abu Grahib in persepctive, huh? Psychologists (and yes, that's the degree I'm doing in case you're wondering) have occaisionally commentated on the way people object to torture in real life but are ok with it in fiction (Dirty Harry springs to mind). What they suggest is that we find it easier to accept when we can put a human face to those who are going to be saved, in TV and movies the correlation between the info gained and benefits are always very direct and evident

10/10, now we're talking

 

[Doc Ock]

I like Buffy. Haven't watched Angel yet.

 

[Matt Mortem]

I like Buffy. Haven't watched Angel yet.

You gotta get on that. Angel is a superior show IMO. I can watch the entire series of Angel end to end and never get bored.

 

[henzINNIT]

Angel is amazing, far superior to Buffy.

I do love Buffy too, but I've all but disowned the last 2 seasons because they're awful (musical excluded)

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I respectfully disagree. Overall Buffy is the better show, seasons 2&3 basically set the standard for all TV ever. Now, by season 6 Angel was superior in quality to Buffy and arguably season 4 of Angel is superior to season 7 Buffy (the Faith/Angelus arc) in season 4 my all time favourite eps of Angel whilst season 7 had some truly epic eps overall Angel was superior. The way to watch them however is taken Buffy from the start and then start watching Angel when you hit Buffy s4 you start watching it in alternate eps with Angel, that way you can truly appreciate the crossover eps and in-jokes

Some assembly required;

The Good;
We have our first sympatheitic monster/villains and the show is all the better for it. Love the grave-digging sequence, the fiery rescue, the kids telling Giles how to date Jenny and the date itself, especially Giles' opinion of American football. The twist that the villains are doing it for Daryl rather than themselves. And if you're a guy or girl-who-likes-girls Cordy in her cheerleader outfit. Giles dealing with Cordy's pain.

The Bad;
Angel wears a hideous tan jacket which makes him look like a used car salesman. Was all his black leather being dry cleaned or something? We thankfully never see it again. Jenny uses the word 'disses' which I normally negatively associate with people who wear their trousers around their knees and regularly stab each other.

Best line;
Buffy; Sorry, I'm an old fashioned girl, men dig up graves and women have the babies

Questions and observations;
Of course this resembles Frankenstein but also the Reanimator series and Wes Craven's horror film Deadly Friend starring the original Buffy Kristy Swanson
Chris and Eric's plan is just creepy in the extreme although a lot more understandable when you meet Daryl, they're doing it for him rather than just creating their own yucky sex toy. Once again Cordy is knocked out and tied up. Jenny again and more and more part of the group.
We have the first example here of the Hellmouth genius, that the supernatural energy of the Hellmouth can make certain people smarter, Chris Epps, Willow, Ted's creator, Warren so despite being in high school they can do things that have eluded scientists for centuries. Despite Willow's complaint in Doomed it actually seems to be Cordy who always seems to be finding the bodies. We see Cordy beginning to come around to Xander's better qualities.
I rather like to think that Chris goes home, pulls back the curtains, switches the TV off and takes his mother to Daryl's grave to say goodbye. As for Eric he has a picture in the Sunnydale High Class of 1999 yearbook where therapy seems to have done him a lot of good. A shame we don't see either of them again but there is only so much room in the show
Good ep; 8/10

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

School Hard;

A whole new era begins as Spike and Dru explode onto the scene!

The Good;
Pretty much everything. Spike and Dru spark right from the beginning, you get their swagger mixed with their very real affection for one another. Julia Landua did her 'Look at all the people' line once for me and it chilled me to the bone. I often think the secret of a successful show is to make the villains as interesting as the heroes and here Buffy does it in spades. Also a great ep if your a fan of the the Joyce/Buffy relationship (and face it, who isn't?)

The Bad;
Not much!

Best line;
Xander; Does anyone remember when Saturday night was date night?
Cordy; You sure don't!

Observations and questions;
First meeting between Cordy and Joyce, Cordy seeming to be appreciative of Joyce's milfiness, as Snyder comments, a mother/daughter resemblance (certainly when she hit's Spike with the axe). First hints that Snyder and the SDPD are aware of the truth about Sunnydale. For the record 3 people died at Woodstock although Spike never says he killed, just fed. The very subtle handbag joke. Ironically whilst Spike later teases the Trio for their nerdiness he refers to Angel as 'My yoda'. Angel's 'Anne Rice routine' is so convincing you almost buy it for a second. Listening to Spike mocking the 'I'm so tortured' brigade you can't help think of 'Twilight' and laugh. Spike's fascination with Buffy could almost be there from the beginning, check out the way he looks at her in the Bronze. The first Spike/Joyce scene which are something to look forward to in the seasons ahead. It almost goes unnoticed amongst all the excitment but this is the first time Cordy is a full official Scooby, she's in the library making stakes with everyone else without any form of back story, she's simply an accepted part of the gang. The crucifixion is mentioned, confirming Giles' assertion that demons and vampires predate christianity but also confirming it as historical fact.
Interestingly at the end of this ep Cordy and Willow end up in the closet together. Will's out, how about Cordy?
Utterly fabulous 10/10

 

[Hush]

So I just watched the episode that does a flashback and we see how Drusilla sired SPike but what I have a question about is why did Spike call Angel his sire when he first showed up? This is annoying me but the episode was ****ing amazing and how he killed the first two slayers was pretty much just that he had a lust for it.

 

[Doomed_hero]

I think he called him something like his mentor not sire

 

[Specter313]

I think he called him something like his mentor not sire

No, he definitely said sire. It was the episode when Spike and his gang crashed the parent-teacher conference night, and when Angel was trying to fool him into biting Xander, and Spike wasn't fooled and yelled "You think you can fool me?! You were my sire, man, my Yoda." or something similar, but he definitely said "sire" because Xander demanded to know what one was later in the same ep.

And as far as why, well, it was probably just a retcon by the writers who wanted Drusilla to be his sire later on.

 

[Doomed_hero]

yeah, he ends up being called Spike's grand sire. Been ahile since have seen it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

While it was a recon, you could probably say he called him his sire (and his yoda in the same sentence) since Angelus helped him become the vamp he was. He looked up to him whereas Dru was his lover.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, Dru may have been the one who sired him, but Angel fulfilled a sire's duty's of training him.