The Amazing Spider-Man Can High School and Serious Go Together?

[david icke]

Sorry for the double post but I was just thinkin' about the other part of the post while i was clippin' my toenails...

Peter was only ever even REMOTELY "ugly" when Steve Ditko was the artist (and even then he just looked skinny and wore big glasses). After John Romita became the artist Peter became pretty good looking.

He also had a bit of a massive head when Ditko drew him.
anyway, as truly great as Romita's artwork is, that was when Spider-man started looking like any other superhero comic. Imo, the book was at it's most interesting when Lee/Ditko were at their peak, ie most of their run apart from a couple of issues.

The thing is, it's very rare that you are going to get as 'ugly' as Ditko drew folk in any comic-books, ie something close to how a bunch of people in real life would look, not cookie cutter perfect, as the book represented them later. Flash lost his freckles and his haor got less curly, Betty Brant's massive head got a bit smaller as well, Auny May started looking a bit more healthy.
It's the same as Hollywood movies, they are trying to appeal to the 'jocks' as well, who would not want to be into an 'ugly' superhero, that being someone they could only look down on given their myopic view of people.
But, there is always an allusion to Pete's attractiveness being inscrutable to the jocks like Flash, he won't shut up about how mystified he is Gwen is with him. If that was in real life he would not be so mystified if Pete looked like that.
So, there is that element lost *visually*, but they try to keep it in the story, to keep Pete the 'everyman', someone the geeks and freaks can empathise with.

Because the thing is, it's more interesting if the geek, freak, weirdo, or quasimodo of the group cops off with the girl they all want. They tried to keep that element in, and they did to an extent, as Pete's disapearances etc, made him seem like an unfeasable bf, but there was just something about him that kept the girls interested, that the guys couldn't figure out.

It's a moot point anyway, no matter how the character was originally conceived by Lee/Ditko, in comics and Hollywood they are always going to cast a looker in the lead role of something like this.
It is interesting though, I was reading some 'Savage Sword of Conan' books the other night, and it caught my eye how the very same artist, John Buscema, who drew his regular book for Marvel, drew Conan in a slightly different manner. In the regular book he looks like Superman facially all the time, but in 'Savage Sword', he can have a big wide hooked nose, and look quite rough in some panels. That was an adult type magazine though, and was very attractive to artists to work on as they had more free reign than they did with the regular monthly 'kiddy' books.

so, in conception, Pete was never supposed to be a cookie cut looker, but once the former Romance book artist Romita came on board, and he has said this himself in interviews, he had the habit of drawing everyone with perfect looks, and so carried that over to Spider-man, and the book lost that aspect.

 

[david icke]

Eh? Maguire isn't all THAT good looking and besides, Peter isn't some ugly-looking high school punk nor is he anywhere lookswise, in the league of those losers you find on that show, "beauty and the geek". Secondly, well dressed?? Um Peter wasn't exactly marching around wearing Tom Ford or Luis Vuitton. He was wearing normal, every day casual clothes. Were you expecting him to be wearing rags barely covering his back or something?

Lol, with all the problems that plagued spider-man 1, these are where you find fault with the movie? Incredible.

Actually , if Pete looked in real life how he was originally conceived, massive head, glasses, skinny, he could fit in with the guys from that show, lookswise.
and i can see what Gunga Diner is getting at with the clothes thing, in our school you were immediately on the outside if you did not wear the right kind of trainers(sneakers), or trousers, jumpers, shirts etc. A lot of kids did dress in what you would call 'rags', clothes that had holes in them, wearing the same set of clothes everyday as their family was poor and the clothes natuarally wore down over time.
These were the kids that would be treated the way Parker was on that bus. In the real world, someone who looked like McGuire and dressed like him would not be in that situation, most probably. In fact I would say he would not be.

But, it's Hollywood, and that's what you are going to get as far as that kind of depiction goes. McGuire is a good looking guy who scrubs down sufficiently well for that part of the role, in Holywood terms anyway, and there are kids who look a lot older after hitting puberty.

Everything in GD's post was spot on, I'd say he was just expecting a little too much 'cinema verite' from a Hollywood blockbuster when it comes to certain depictions of real life situations, you're not going to get someone looking like they stepped out of 'Gummo' playing the hs outsider, but in real life, that's how these kids look or are dressed. Well, at least you're not going to get one in a major blockbuster where the kid goes on to be a superhero.
It was a fair point, and the original PP as depicted in the Lee/Ditko books was not a cookie cut looker when he was the outsider in hs, he was just an average looking kid who was skinny, wore glasses and had a big head.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, I don't even think that Ditko meant for character interpretations that people took of the characters from the way he drew them.

One example: May. The reason Ditko drew her face as so full of lines and such was to make it clear she was meant to be over 50 or so, because if he didn't then the printing methods of the day wouldn't have made her seem that old. He wasn't trying to say she was some living cadaver (like some artists have made her look), in fact her whole character is that Peter keeps THINKING she's at death's door when she's in fact got an iron will. But most artists misinterpreted Ditko's art as her being some withered old crone.

It's the same with Peter actually, I don't think Ditko meant for him to be some bulb-head but again it was just to make Peter's character stand out (since otherwise, his design is rather generic).

Norman and Harry, the hairstyle they have was a REAL hairstyle but it was hard for Ditko to translate it to the page so we got the cornrows instead. Recent artists have managed to use modern printing and art styles to show Norman and Harry's hair as its SUPPOSED to look:

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/750928.html

 

[Ajendo]

Screw it, I had a lengthy, detailed post that didn't go through. Damn server!

 

[david icke]

Actually, I don't even think that Ditko meant for character interpretations that people took of the characters from the way he drew them.

One example: May. The reason Ditko drew her face as so full of lines and such was to make it clear she was meant to be over 50 or so, because if he didn't then the printing methods of the day wouldn't have made her seem that old. He wasn't trying to say she was some living cadaver (like some artists have made her look), in fact her whole character is that Peter keeps THINKING she's at death's door when she's in fact got an iron will. But most artists misinterpreted Ditko's art as her being some withered old crone.

It's the same with Peter actually, I don't think Ditko meant for him to be some bulb-head but again it was just to make Peter's character stand out (since otherwise, his design is rather generic).

Norman and Harry, the hairstyle they have was a REAL hairstyle but it was hard for Ditko to translate it to the page so we got the cornrows instead. Recent artists have managed to use modern printing and art styles to show Norman and Harry's hair as its SUPPOSED to look:

http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/750928.html

Ok, interesting, but in regards to Pete being a bulb head, yes, it was to make Pete look more than a generic character, but why couldn't that also cover the fact that as an artist he didn't feel the outsider character should look like the perfect looking heart throb.

Ajendo: yeah, I hate when that happens, I would've liked to have read your further thoughts.

I do understand that you feel McGuire was not *that* good looking, and you could imagine him being the outsider if he had a little more of a greasy complaxion and some spots or whatever, which they do kind of give him in the flick make up wise.
But, I can also see GD's point, in that it is a bit like the movies like 'She's all that', where you're supposed to believe that no-one could see the good looking person past their glasses and plain hairdo.
I can see why folk have a problem with that Hollywood thing, but I can also accept it as their way with these kind of things.

 

[Anwar]

Ok, interesting, but in regards to Pete being a bulb head, yes, it was to make Pete look more than a generic character, but why couldn't that also cover the fact that as an artist he didn't feel the outsider character should look like the perfect looking heart throb.

Well, thing is that even WITH the bigger head he still isn't bad looking. Heck, even when Ditko was drawing him Peter looked somewhat dashing whenever he was at the Bugle in that blue business suit and wasn't wearing glasses.

 

[Ajendo]

I think the, "she's all that" reference by David is spot on and essentially sums up how the primary "inner circle" felt towards Peter to a certain extent. I don't think Peter needed or even had a makeover to grab the attention of the honeys. I also have to agree with Anwar that even when Ditko drew Peter, I never particularly found his illustrations of the character ugly. Peter's focal attributed flaw was that he was a good boy, studious, easy to push around and had the glasses thing going on, which subsequently made Peter an automatic outcast and the kids weren't in the least bit interested in giving him a chance. Not to mention the likes of Flash were merely acting out of habbit because they had been in that mind set for so long.
Bearing all that in mind, in a "slightly" more rational environment i.e. the daily bugle, Peter is able to gain the affections of and romance Betty Brant as she's actually able to be in a position to get to know Peter as opposed to dismissing him upon first viewing as some geek-looking teenage kid and leaving it at that not to mention she's 4 years older.
If Peter were butt ugly (I don't recall Flash making a derogatory comment about Peter's looks now that I think about it) then I doubt he would have gotten very far with the girls he's been involved with. Even Liz' view changed which resulted in a love triangle and that's because she was eventually able to see Peter in a light she had never seen before and this is the same peter with the same look.

 

[david icke]

Yeah, I never said that Pete was ever meant to be 'butt ugly', or ugly in any sense. Just that in the original books he wasn't meant to look like a perfect male model, which is what he was portrayed as when Romita took over the book, because he was so used to drawing perfect looking folk for the romance comics.

He was just meant to look like an average kid, when he scrubs up or is seen in the right light, can look quite dashing, but if slouching, wearing glasses, skinny framed, and not carrying himself with confidence, can be pigeonholed as a 'loser', not looking great in his presentation, where any physical flaws could be highlighted other than overlooked.
If he was meant to have the perfect 10 model looks of the Romita books from the start, no amount of slouching, glasses, or whatever would be able to cover that up. Which is what makes these 'She's All That' movies so ridiculous, as you know there's a great looking woman in front of you at any stage of her presentation, and when Freddie Prinze Jnr gets the shock of his life, you think it's just movie bs, because she didn't look that different before the makeover. at least, not to the extent that you couldn't tell she was a stunner under the glasses and plain hairdo. edit: I was kind of using that as an example to show how unreal that kind of thing is, that never happens in reality. The only times when folk are shocked by a physical transformation, is when there *is* a transformation, through weight loss or whatever, not a quick makeover.

edit: and with Liz Allen expressing her feelings for Pete when highschool finished up, that was nothing to do with looks, that was all personality, but a great personality wrapped up in a guy who was not ugly, but just average/dashing/ordinary good looks. That was the way I always read it anyway.

So, I do think there was a change when Romita came onboard, he went from average/dashing in a good light to perfect 10 male model who *always* looks good, even when he's been beaten up.
It's just a habit some cb artists get, they cuteify everything, even the characters who were not really meant to be *that* good looking.

Look at the drawings of Ron Frenz, there is a moment in an issue (when PP and MJ are walking about in the park and Mj is telling him her life story) when Pete looks at his reflection in a puddle and it flashbacks to the Ditko highschool look, contrasting it with his current look. Now, folk say that Ron Frenz was the first artist to hark back to the style of Ditko, and here we see how Pete still has a bit of a bulb head, but nowadays he has got a more natural rugged look that looks much better than the pristine china doll look of his hs years, with the glasses and mama's boy haircut.
He looks like an average looking guy who chicks would call cute, and that's what he is usually refered to in the books. Not a perfect 10 heartthrob of the Romita books, which kind of set a precedent for Pete looking perfect with succeeding artists until Frenz went back to the Ditko look.

 

[Anwar]

Of course, it did make a LITTLE sense that Peter would get better-looking after he became Spidey: He'd carry himself with a more proud feeling, and he probably muscled up either due to the spider-bite itself (like in the movies) or from all the acrobatics and fighting he did as Spidey. So it did make sense that a year or so of that would've made him look less geeky (around the time he graduated).

But yes, I remember that Defalco story where Peter flashed back and we saw that he was different looking in the Ditko days: bland, preppy outfit, huge glasses, this lonesome somewhat dour-look on his face, etc. His face itself hasn't changed but his clothing, body language, hairstyle and such had.

 

[david icke]

Yeah, that makes sense, also, after being out there doing all kinds of crazy crap as SM, his personality would have developed to be more outgoing, instead of the timid kid we got the sense of in AF15.
Like, there is a sense that Pete is only just now starting to answer Flash back in the early stories, from the way Flash reacts. So that combined with being more athletic, would make him more attractive to someone like Liz Allen.

 

[DACrowe]

Maybe it will be like Glee. Peter singing Journey with Gwen and MJ taking it home. I think that's something we'd all pay to see.

Yeah this can go bad or well. Who knows at this point.

 

[Doctor Jones]

It could work. If SSM can do it why can't a live action film? I just hope they can balance high school with Peter's duties as Spider-Man and not focusing it on all the fake drama soap operatic teenage ********. I think the only romance elements should be Peter and Gwen and their relationship. Peter as a teenager in high school changes things for them, but it should be well handled. That's why I trust Webb. In 500 Days of Summer the relationship felt honest and real. That's how I want this to be portrayed.

 

[Anwar]

It could work. If SSM can do it why can't a live action film?

There are big differences between TV storytelling and Movie storytelling. For one thing the SSM crew know they'll have at least 13 episodes to tell their story and as such are able to do the plots slower and develop the characters more gradually. Movies have 2 hours to tell a complete story that may or may not have a sequel, and have to distill more.

 

[Spider-Who?]

The reboot will take Peter back to High School. The reboot has been reported (not confirmed) to be following the lines of USM, where the villains/fights took a back seat to the daily life in High School. There have been reports from Sony that they will be taking a more serious/realistic/gritty approach to the reboot.

So what does a more serious approach mean to you, the Spider-Man fans?

Do you think we will get something more along the lines of WB's Smallville, or do you think we will still get action like we had in Raimi's Spider-Man, but without all the She Loves me.. She Loves me Not?

What is "serious" to you?

this worries me greatly. If I want to watch a nerdy outcast dealing with the drama of highschool, I'll watch the Teen Nick channel.

I want to watch SPIDER-MAN. Thats what the name that will be in the title of the movie. Thats the character I want to be focused on.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Agreed. But let's remember that even if it is SPider-Man, the main story where you can get the emotional pull if from Peter. But there should be a good balance of it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I wouldn't want to see corny stuff,just because he is in High-School doesn't mean things have to be juvenile. The problems Im writing is personal dilemma,not Peter saying "Oh Man,I got a damn zit, Can my day get any worse?" BLAH.

The troubles these teens face is more adult.

Peter not coming to terms with his guilt of Ben's death. He even moves out of Aunt May's and stays at the Osborn's, because he cant look her in the eye. He sends money from the Bugle to her.

Spider-Man not yet learning the important heroic lesson of "With Great Power,There Must Also Come Great Responsibility".

Harry hiding his feelings from Peter about his father's neglect,and coming close to using drugs.

High-School scenes is where they can be kids,and live normal lives,but thats their home problems.