First Avenger Captain America needs to be the ANTI-GI JOE

[Ace of Knaves]

Who is dumping on America? I haven't got a problem with America.

What I do have a problem with is Americans who are like "Hey we are the best in the world at everything! You are all lesser beings!"

Or having that mentality thrown down my throat.

And if you have a problem with me feeling like that, then well, **** you.

The FACT is, if Captain America was made like that, with that obnoxious, we are better than everyone attitude, NO ONE outside of America would see. Even Captain America fans. Because the REAL Captain America is not like that.

 

[TheVileOne]

I find the constant stream of anti-American anti-war and anti-military movies that BOMB at the box office and fail miserably more obnoxious than what you are referring to.

 

[Triad]

Hey Ace,
Let me start by saying that my intention is not to try to get into an argument with you or to p*** you off...you are entitled to your opinions, but I just want you to know that people may take offense if you try to try to portray Americans as egotists. I personally disagree with the current state of politics of my country but all the anti-American sentiments that many non-Americans other than yourself have posted on these boards are all really starting to grade on my patience.
I'm not going to stoop to the depths where I'll repeat your "**** you", but I will say that your attitude offends me as much as you are offended by the Americans that throw this mentality "down your throat". It sounds like it's they that have the problem not America. Generalizing U.S. citizens as having an obnoxious superiority complex is plain offensive. ALL countries have citizens that feel that way about their respective land. I personally know plenty of non-Americans that are worse offenders in advocating their own countries then most Americans are towards the U.S.. Besides, what is wrong with thinking your country is the best country? I'm confused as to why it is OK for people to proclaim far & wide their pride in their race, religions, sexual orientations or nationalities...just as long as they aren't American (or white, but that is another subject entirely - I am not a racist.). I don't go on rants on how Great Britain or any other country is beneath us or how great America is and I haven't seen any other U.S. SHH poster either. I'm getting really tired of being considered guilty en mass of something I don't do. But I do love my country, America...warts & all.
You know what? If the filmmakers happen to make First Avenger a bit too pro-U.S.A. for your tastes...then go ahead stay home and don't see it! I'm willing to bet that they have no intention of doing this though because they do want to appeal to a worldwide audience - and I'm sure you know this also. So it just seems to me that you are just taking this opportunity to jump on a soapbox about how egotistical America is. Besides, when's the last time you DID see a movie that said "We're American and we are the best and everybody else sucks!"? As theVileOne has stated, there sure isn't a shortage of ones stating the opposite point of view!
Maybe before you start posting stereotypical insults about other SHH members' national attitudes you might want to think about if it's offensive or not first.
This is not trying to attack you personally, but I just felt that it should be said.

 

[Triad]

Attention Mods,
I'm starting to think this particular forum topic is a breeding ground for potential arguments. Doesn't anyone else agree?

 

[Katsuro]

I find the constant stream of anti-American anti-war and anti-military movies that BOMB at the box office and fail miserably more obnoxious than what you are referring to.

What could you possibly have against anti-war movies? What, do you like war or something?

 

[Infinity9999x]

I find the constant stream of anti-American anti-war and anti-military movies that BOMB at the box office and fail miserably more obnoxious than what you are referring to.

I certainly don't, and I am an American.

And what's wrong with Anit-war? Do you dislike Saving Private Ryan? Because that had a pretty strong anti-war message. However, it managed to have an anti-war message while also having a pro-American message.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hey Ace,
Let me start by saying that my intention is not to try to get into an argument with you or to p*** you off...you are entitled to your opinions, but I just want you to know that people may take offense if you try to try to portray Americans as egotists. I personally disagree with the current state of politics of my country but all the anti-American sentiments that many non-Americans other than yourself have posted on these boards are all really starting to grade on my patience.
I'm not going to stoop to the depths where I'll repeat your "**** you", but I will say that your attitude offends me as much as you are offended by the Americans that throw this mentality "down your throat". It sounds like it's they that have the problem not America. Generalizing U.S. citizens as having an obnoxious superiority complex is plain offensive. ALL countries have citizens that feel that way about their respective land. I personally know plenty of non-Americans that are worse offenders in advocating their own countries then most Americans are towards the U.S.. Besides, what is wrong with thinking your country is the best country? I'm confused as to why it is OK for people to proclaim far & wide their pride in their race, religions, sexual orientations or nationalities...just as long as they aren't American (or white, but that is another subject entirely - I am not a racist.). I don't go on rants on how Great Britain or any other country is beneath us or how great America is and I haven't seen any other U.S. SHH poster either. I'm getting really tired of being considered guilty en mass of something I don't do. But I do love my country, America...warts & all.
You know what? If the filmmakers happen to make First Avenger a bit too pro-U.S.A. for your tastes...then go ahead stay home and don't see it! I'm willing to bet that they have no intention of doing this though because they do want to appeal to a worldwide audience - and I'm sure you know this also. So it just seems to me that you are just taking this opportunity to jump on a soapbox about how egotistical America is. Besides, when's the last time you DID see a movie that said "We're American and we are the best and everybody else sucks!"? As theVileOne has stated, there sure isn't a shortage of ones stating the opposite point of view!
Maybe before you start posting stereotypical insults about other SHH members' national attitudes you might want to think about if it's offensive or not first.
This is not trying to attack you personally, but I just felt that it should be said.

Look man, there is NOTHING wrong with being patriotic. NOTHING at all.

I'm not anti American, I love America, I've been there many times.

But the person who started this thread seems to want this movie to be a America propaganda tool. A vehicle for the message "America is the best so **** everyone else".

I have massive ****ing problem with this. As I would have a problem with a film that is a vehicle for the message "Britain is the best so **** everyone else".

It's a ****ing piss take. Vile seems to want Captain America to be the serious, non satirical take of Team America: World Police.

I have two problems with this, as I've already said.

1. If this film is a great big **** you to the rest of the world by America, no one outside of America will go see it. FACT. And a film about Captain America should be seen by a lot of people because he is a great character.

2. Do you guys even know the character of Captain America? Have you read 100s of Captain America comics like I have? I'm betting VileOne hasn't because he doesn't seem to have a clue about the character. Captain America is not an obnoxious flag waving ********. He stands for the American way of life, not the American government and certainly not egotistical American flag wavers with superiority complexes.

And I know it isn't just America who has these overzealous flag wavers. Every country has. But I'm not beating around the bush here, all over the world there is a stigma attached to America and Americans. To deny this would be ridiculous. I'm not saying it's a warranted stigma, but it is most definitely there.

Now you go and release a film called Captain AMERICA and it is gonna have a hard enough time being popular outside America as it is, just by looking at the name. Then you go make it a propaganda tool giving the rest of the world a big "**** you, you suck" and watch it bomb internationally.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this. EVERYONE from all around the world should be able to relate and connect to Captain America. Not JUST Americans. He is the ultimate golden boy, the guy who fights for whats right no matter what. He has even clashed with America on occasions. So VileOne spouting this utter crap is TOTALLY not in line with the characterization of Captain America.

Cap represents all the good things about America. Not the bad things.

What could you possibly have against anti-war movies? What, do you like war or something?

I certainly don't, and I am an American.

And what's wrong with Anit-war? Do you dislike Saving Private Ryan? Because that had a pretty strong anti-war message. However, it managed to have an anti-war message while also having a pro-American message.

TheVileOne is right about everything. Don't argue with him, he is a pro film critic and is always right...

Oh wait!

 

[Triad]

Well I can't argue with your logic Ace. I'm glad that you didn't take my rant personally. After re-reading your posts I realized what you were actually saying. It's just that it caught me at the wrong time initially. Due to the stigma that you mentioned, I have recently encountered quite a few anti-American sentiments on other unrelated forums and I was getting fed up with it. I especially have a problem with people coming to this country, reaping the benefits available to them here and then proceeding to bash our people, culture & ideals while expecting that we conform to theirs. I still don't apologize for my views that I stated, but I do apologize to those directed towards you. It is a shame that the majority of the world views us as arrogant and/or ignorant. Not all of Americans fit into that mold despite our love of country.
As for TheVileOne's comments, I can neither condone nor condemn his opinions. They are his and I will respect his right to have them. I will say that I do not agree that this movie should be, as you say, a "serious, non satirical take of Team America: World Police", if that is indeed his intention. I do, however feel that it is way overdue in this current rise of negativity that America once again gets a movie that highlights what is actually good about this country and what our grandfathers fought & died for. There is a reason that they were refereed to as the "Greatest Generation".
Oh, and yes I am more than just a casual fan of Captain America comics. I have been all of my life. His ideals are what TRUE patriotism represents to me: Love of country, but willing to fearlessly oppose those in power if their actions contradict what is for the overall good of all it's citizens and the country as a whole. It is afterall, supposed to be "We, the people" that run this republic, not just it's leaders. Blind patriotism is just a step away from fanaticism - which is about as dangerous as fascism! Unfortunately, true freedom also facilitates the rights of those greedy for wealth & power as much or more as for the worthy & the just. Personally, I would rather they not show Cap be discontented with this aspect in the first movie yet, but portray a more wholesome view of America. The following movies can show more of his post-thaw displeasure towards the way it has all played out here and the bastardization of our Constitution and ideology.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Glad you understand me man. As I said, I'm totally not anti-America. And you have the right to be fiercely proud of your country, as does everyone.

And I'm glad you agree with me about Cap's actual character. Because that is what I love about him. He stands for what is right, no matter what. If that brings him into conflict with his own country? So be it. He stands for all the great things about America, he stands for the things that other countries and people love about America. Not the things that make other countries and people roll their eyes about America.

 

[MilkmanDan]

I have no doubt that Captain America movie will have a patriotic feel to it. I guess what some of my fellow soap-fearing, wine-sipping members of Eurotrash fear is that this patriotism might be shown in a ham-fisted, tacky fashion. Cap is a man who loves his country and a representative of the heroism shown by American fighting men during WWII. And this movie should reflect that. However, it should be done tastefully. Like it was done in Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers. The reason we jaded, cynical Europians sometimes make fun of American patriotism in movies is that it's sometimes portrayed with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Captain America should simply be a better movie than those cheesy action flicks where men in uniforms walk in slow motion in front of big fighter jets/tanks/missiles and an American flag while pompous soundtrack barely hides the sound of Jerry Bruckheimer climaxing.

People around the World enjoy patriotic American shows and movies when they are done well. Marvel has done well so far with filming its properties so I'm fairly confident that this movie will manage to please most fans home and abroad.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Great post man. You summed up what I would hate better than I ever could.

But for the record, I hate wine. Give me a Stella Artois and I'm set.

 

[marcvader]

If 616 Cap is depicted right then I would think everyone would have nothing to worry about but if its Ultimate Cap then.....

 

[TheVileOne]

What could you possibly have against anti-war movies? What, do you like war or something?

Captain America isn't a hippie. He's not a give peace a chance character. He's a soldier. You can't be revolting about that.

No I don't like war, but Hollywood's got to constantly shove their political anti-war viewpoints down our throats with ****** movies that no one wants to see, get bad reviews, and BOMB.

I certainly don't, and I am an American.

And what's wrong with Anit-war? Do you dislike Saving Private Ryan? Because that had a pretty strong anti-war message. However, it managed to have an anti-war message while also having a pro-American message.

No I don't dislike it. Do I dislike Rendition? Yes. Do I dislike Stop-Loss? Yes. Lambs For Lions? Yes.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

Before i start writing anything else let me make one thing clear: I'm european and Captain America fan. Or well Mark Millar's Captain America fan pretty much.

Making this movie all-american stuff would be a disaster outside. The common European may find Captain America purely lame just because of his name. I've even ran into stupid arguments where the guy tried to explain me why Batman was cool but Captain America can't be cool at all... *barfs from remembering that day*

So anyhow. Yes Captain America should be a proud american, but truly World War 2 was won by teamwork and this is how it should be shown. No i'm not asking for some Indian guy acting as the tech guy. Or the black guy talking about his street stuff. No, we just need to make it.... non patriotic-god-bless-america movie where WW2 is finished with Captain America leading the soldiers to victory.

Marvel shouldn't put their head in the sand in fear of what people outside think of Captain America. It's Captain America, there's nothing George W Bush/Fox News about it. It's escapism, it's adventure. We're talking about a World where it was very black & white facing the ultimate evil in Adolph Hitler and the Nazies. If people don't get that then screw them.

The guilt-ridden hero stories and what the US represent in this day and age would probably happen in Captain American 2, where the other side of the fence will be happy to see him cry "oh what has America become", etc...Sort of like what Stan Lee/Steve Englehart in the comics.

 

[Webhead2006]

you guys have some great posts there.

 

[TheVileOne]

Marvel shouldn't put their head in the sand in fear of what people outside think of Captain America. It's Captain America, there's nothing George W Bush/Fox News about it. It's escapism, it's adventure. We're talking about a World where it was very black & white facing the ultimate evil in Adolph Hitler and the Nazies. If people don't get that then screw them.

The guilt-ridden hero stories and what the US represent in this day and age would probably happen in Captain American 2, where the other side of the fence will be happy to see him cry "oh what has America become", etc...Sort of like what Stan Lee/Steve Englehart in the comics.

Thank you that's the point.

On the other hand, it could also be recognized that certain things that were bad or questionable have also improved and the American dream is still alive.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

Thank you that's the point.

On the other hand, it could also be recognized that certains that were bad or questionable have also improved and the American dream is still alive.

I remember in those stories from the 70s, Cap came to that conclusion also that instead of rejecting what had become of the new America(he had stopped being Cap and had chosen to work as Nomad because people had lost faith in him and he had lost faith in them given all the stuf that had happened with Watergate, etc..), he should instead evolve and become part of the discussion again so that he could present the new generation his own point of view. In a way it was a precursor to what Superman will do decades later in Kingdom Come where discouraged, he decided to quit and things went from bad to worse.

Anyway it would be interesting if the writers and filmakers could explore that in futur Captain America movies.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Marvel shouldn't put their head in the sand in fear of what people outside think of Captain America. It's Captain America, there's nothing George W Bush/Fox News about it. It's escapism, it's adventure. We're talking about a World where it was very black & white facing the ultimate evil in Adolph Hitler and the Nazies. If people don't get that then screw them.

The guilt-ridden hero stories and what the US represent in this day and age would probably happen in Captain American 2, where the other side of the fence will be happy to see him cry "oh what has America become", etc...Sort of like what Stan Lee/Steve Englehart in the comics.

There is nothing wrong with that.

But it seems some of you guys want this to be turned into a ****ing Jerry Bruckheimer movie. Which is unacceptable for a movie like this.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

Good Lord, No! I don't want a Michael Bay crap fest. I wish it would be like the first half of Donner's Superman as far as epic heroic fantasy, mixed with Indiana Jones and fights similar to Saving Private Ryan.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea that would be cool.

Films like Saving Private Ryan show the heroic side to the American troops. But don't go over board and tacky with it.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

It's not like the GIs were chanting patriotic retorics during battles anyway. I don't want a Cap that will go "come on men, let's fight for democracy, so that we can be welcome to Lady Liberty's breast once again. The sound of her voice should give us strength to beat Fascism!".

I think Cap quite the opposite shouldn't be arrogant, in a way he's a secret weapon. He should be mysterious but then when he fights he becomes a demon. And the sight of that would inspire the troops.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea Cap inspires with his actions, not cheesy lines.

 

[Webhead2006]

i am sure joe will find a good place with cap, showing the good of ww2 us themes, and make a good action packed comic film.

 

[TheVileOne]

No one's expecting patriotic rhetoric. But it would be nice for Hollywood to stop the pandering ******** and stop saying, "America sucks. Everyone hates us and we agree."

 

[baerrtt]

No one's expecting patriotic rhetoric. But it would be nice for Hollywood to stop the pandering ******** and stop saying, "America sucks. Everyone hates us and we agree."

I don't think I've seen any US anti-war film that's flat out said 'AMERICA SUCKS'. What I've seen, from THE DEER HUNTER to APOCALYPSE NOW to PLATOON to SAVING PRIVATE RYAN to the current crop of Gulf War pics etc, are criticisms of the US government's not entirely heroic or ethical involvement in warfare historically. None of those films bash the actual country.