First Avenger Captain America needs to be the ANTI-GI JOE

[TheVileOne]

I don't think I've seen any US anti-war film that's flat out said 'AMERICA SUCKS'. What I've seen, from THE DEER HUNTER to APOCALYPSE NOW to PLATOON to SAVING PRIVATE RYAN to the current crop of Gulf War pics etc, are criticisms of the US government's not entirely heroic or ethical involvement in warfare historically. None of those films bash the actual country.

Captain America can't be that kind of movie.

 

[roach]

I think they should handle the patriotic-ness much like 24 does. Jack Bauer doesnt hum the national anthem but you know he loves America. He doesnt quote "America The Beautiful" when punching out the bad guys but his love for his country is evident. Cap much like Jack Bauer/Jack Ryan and John Clark are doers...they dont talk about it they just do it

 

[MysterioMenace]

I think it’s important to note that Capt. America is not Capt. Conservative. He’s not the embodiment of Fox News; he’s the embodiment of freedom and justice. That is not beloved by America alone. He represents America in the most literal of ways, not in that clichéd NRA red neck stigma. He doesn’t fight for America and America alone; he fights for something larger, something far more powerful. He fights for ideals, which aren't inherently part of the US alone.

 

[TheVileOne]

No one talking about Captain America being like Jack Bauer, humming the National Anthem, NRA crap, or Fox News.

It's about not getting into this crap of like what they did in the new Superman movie that failed in saying garbage like "Truth, justice, all that stuff." Where suddenly it became taboo to recite, "Truth, justice, and the American way."

 

[MysterioMenace]

No one talking about Captain America being like Jack Bauer, humming the National Anthem, NRA crap, or Fox News.

It's about not getting into this crap of like what they did in the new Superman movie that failed in saying garbage like "Truth, justice, all that stuff." Where suddenly it became taboo to recite, "Truth, justice, and the American way."

But how isn't that dated? Truth and justice aren't only American. Morals have no boundaries on a map. You have to consider the era in which that phrase was made. Ultimately it defeats the very purpose of America, when the American way...is really any ethical way. We're a democracy, meaning the American way is Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jewish, etc. It's a whole slew of ideologies, the so-called melting pot. Nor do I agree that it wounds Superman to take that phrase away, he's still helping to save the world, not America alone. Action often speaks louder than words.

 

[TheVileOne]

But how isn't that dated? Truth and justice aren't only American. Morals have no boundaries on a map. You have to consider the era in which that phrase was made. Ultimately it defeats the very purpose of America, when the American way...is really any ethical way. We're a democracy, meaning the American way is Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Jewish, etc. It's a whole slew of ideologies, the so-called melting pot. Nor do I agree that it wounds Superman to take that phrase away, he's still helping to save the world, not America alone. Action often speaks louder than words.

No they aren't dated. MysterioMenace. You don't get it. They said this in a SUPERMAN MOVIE that people did not like. Ideas like that being expressed in a Superman movie turned people off and people didn't like that.

GI JOE. GI JOE DID NOT DO THAT WELL! This is a movie where they changed so much about the source material to pander to international audiences and the movie did NOT do huge business overseas. It did disappointing business in the US.

So why can't Captain America just embrace the tradition again? What's dated is the ******** that these ideas are dated.

 

[MysterioMenace]

No they aren't dated. MysterioMenace. You don't get it. They said this in a SUPERMAN MOVIE that people did not like. Ideas like that being expressed in a Superman movie turned people off and people didn't like that.

GI JOE. GI JOE DID NOT DO THAT WELL! This is a movie where they changed so much about the source material to pander to international audiences and the movie did NOT do huge business overseas. It did disappointing business in the US.

So why can't Captain America just embrace the tradition again? What's dated is the ******** that these ideas are dated.

Clearly you have some anger issues. No need to get angry!

I just find it to be a very narrow assessment of the American ideology. It's not about the boarders, it's about the principles. The country was founded really and truthfully on hypocrisy. What’s claimed to be believed was oftentimes not practiced; tolerance. That speaks no louder than with the Native Americans and the oftentimes swept under the rug atrocities we committed. Many of the founding fathers, the same who wrote “All men are created equally,” also owned slaves. Apparently anyone outside of the Caucasian race wasn’t considered man. This isn’t dated? This is the unbiased history of the founding of America. The principles put into the constitution were inherently genuine but not often accomplished at the time either. It’s easy to say what is right, but not always easy to do what is right.

As we evolved as a country, keep in mind that comparatively speaking we’re still fairly new, our own failures as a people became apparent. No country is flawless or without wrong. Though the principles were overlooked or almost outright ignored by many originally, they were still written nonetheless. Thus shouldn’t they (at least eventually) be practiced? Once again, America was coined as the melting pot. Do you not get the analogy? It was called that for a reason. We are open to diversity, encouraging of it. America was every ethnicity solidified into one greater power. So ultimately, is it so blasphemous to have G.I. Joe not what you'd consider All-American? After all, there are numerous examples from the get-go of Larry Hama’s books, particularly the character of Snake-Eyes, arguably the most iconic character from the entire series, also Japanese. There’s no better example, but there are more ethnicities on the Joe team as well.

The essence of America is democracy! All-American translates to worldly. Capt. America debuted as basically a propaganda tool, literally punching out Hitler on the cover. It was a way of boosting morale. The character really did affect the war, when his comic books were sent in care packages to soldiers alongside bubble gum, cigarettes, and letters from home. And apparently his comics helped soldiers cope. That’s an absolutely wonderful thing, solidifying that Capt. America became this symbol for freedom in the very real-world.

Don’t undermine that symbol by misinterpreting the meaning of All-American. It doesn't really represent a country with it's segregating boarders, it represents all that is great and good in this world.

 

[TheVileOne]

I just find it to be a very narrow assessment of the American ideology. It's not about the boarders, it's about the principles. The country was founded really and truthfully on hypocrisy. What’s claimed to be believed was oftentimes not practiced; tolerance. That speaks no louder than with the Native Americans and the oftentimes swept under the rug atrocities we committed. Many of the founding fathers, the same who wrote “All men are created equally,” also owned slaves. Apparently anyone outside of the Caucasian race wasn’t considered man. This isn’t dated? This is the unbiased history of the founding of America. The principles put into the constitution were inherently genuine but not often accomplished at the time either. It’s easy to say what is right, but not always easy to do what is right. [/FONT][/COLOR]

It's no more narrow than how Hollywood usually does business with most of their tripe these days.

As we evolved as a country, keep in mind that comparatively speaking we’re still fairly new, our own failures as a people became apparent. No country is flawless or without wrong. Though the principles were overlooked or almost outright ignored by many originally, they were still written nonetheless. Thus shouldn’t they (at least eventually) be practiced? Once again, America was coined as the melting pot. Do you not get the analogy? It was called that for a reason. We are open to diversity, encouraging of it. America was every ethnicity solidified into one greater power. So ultimately, is it so blasphemous to have G.I. Joe not what you'd consider All-American? After all, there are numerous examples from the get-go of Larry Hama’s books, particularly the character of Snake-Eyes, arguably the most iconic character from the entire series, also Japanese. There’s no better example, but there are more ethnicities on the Joe team as well.

Snake Eyes = blonde white dude, Japanese. Storm Shadow, of Japanese descent, originally a member of the American military and served with Snake Eyes. GI JOE was always a melting pot and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the movies that ruined that.

Thank you for the history lesson Professor Burns.

 

[MysterioMenace]

It's no more narrow than how Hollywood usually does business with most of their tripe these days.

That's a matter of opinion, which many seem to disagree upon.

Snake Eyes = blonde white dude, Japanese. Storm Shadow, of Japanese descent, originally a member of the American military and served with Snake Eyes. GI JOE was always a melting pot and there's nothing wrong with that. It's the movies that ruined that.

Firstly that doesn't take away from the fact that he's still Japanese-American. Is not a white man born in Africa African? The G.I. Joe team is indeed a melting pot, which I felt was clearly displayed in the film. So what are your issues with it? Why do you feel it wasn't so-called All-American?

Thank you for the history lesson Professor Burns.

You're welcome! ...you needed it...

 

[Infinity9999x]

Mysterio,

I agree with some of the points you bring up, but I disagree on the copping out of Superman's motto. What's wrong with saying "truth, justice, and the American way?" In fact, I think it's more degrading to be ashamed to stand up and connect our country to something good for once.

These characters, Superman and Cap especially, adhere strongly to American ideals. Yes, America is not as spotless as people in the 30's and 40's believed when these characters were created, but that does not stop the characters for standing up in the ideals of America, no matter how hypocritical our founding fathers may have been when they wrote them.

That's the refreshing thing about Cap and Supes. Yeah, they might say some corny things about that, but they'll actually mean it. They'll actually fight for the ideals, which is one reason I wasn't as fond of Ult. Cap once he began to be more developed. 616 Cap wouldn't blindly follow orders, he stands by his ideals, not what the government tells him. He would contradict and face down the government if he thought they were doing something wrong.

But the point is, I see no problem with having Superman stand by his old motto. In fact, in this day and age, I think we need it, because it shows children a hero who holds up the American way to be one of truth and justice, not of hypocrisy and lies as we so often learn our real history was based on.

 

[Webhead2006]

well we will just have to see how they treat cap/america in the film. I am sure they will do things respectful.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Mysterio,

I agree with some of the points you bring up, but I disagree on the copping out of Superman's motto. What's wrong with saying "truth, justice, and the American way?" In fact, I think it's more degrading to be ashamed to stand up and connect our country to something good for once.

These characters, Superman and Cap especially, adhere strongly to American ideals. Yes, America is not as spotless as people in the 30's and 40's believed when these characters were created, but that does not stop the characters for standing up in the ideals of America, no matter how hypocritical our founding fathers may have been when they wrote them.

That's the refreshing thing about Cap and Supes. Yeah, they might say some corny things about that, but they'll actually mean it. They'll actually fight for the ideals, which is one reason I wasn't as fond of Ult. Cap once he began to be more developed. 616 Cap wouldn't blindly follow orders, he stands by his ideals, not what the government tells him. He would contradict and face down the government if he thought they were doing something wrong.

But the point is, I see no problem with having Superman stand by his old motto. In fact, in this day and age, I think we need it, because it shows children a hero who holds up the American way to be one of truth and justice, not of hypocrisy and lies as we so often learn our real history was based on.

Very strong points! I suppose I’ll rephrase. I think what I’m trying to say isn’t so much that it shouldn’t be included, I’d have no issue if it were, but rather that it’s not so significantly detrimental to the character if it’s not. Get my meaning?

 

[TheVileOne]

That's a matter of opinion, which many seem to disagree upon.



Firstly that doesn't take away from the fact that he's still Japanese-American. Is not a white man born in Africa African? The G.I. Joe team is indeed a melting pot, which I felt was clearly displayed in the film. So what are your issues with it? Why do you feel it wasn't so-called All-American?



You're welcome! ...you needed it...

You're the liar that said Snake Eyes is Japanese. Snake Eyes is not nor has he ever been Japanese.

 

[MysterioMenace]

You're the liar that said Snake Eyes is Japanese. Snake Eyes is not nor has he ever been Japanese.

Wow! You’re a dramatic republican, aren’t you? Did Snake-Eyes not become a citizen of Japan? Did he not spend a significant amount of time training with the Arashikage clan in Japan? Thus does this not mean that G.I. Joe is not only American in traits? I think the fact that the team has a freaking ninja on it…well…speaks volumes! All-American is worldly. Not to mention, Storm Shadow has also been a part of the Joe team.

 

[TheVileOne]

Wow! You’re a dramatic republican, aren’t you? Did Snake-Eyes not become a citizen of Japan? Did he not spend a significant amount of time training with the Arashikage clan in Japan? Thus does this not mean that G.I. Joe is not only American in traits? I think the fact that the team has a freaking ninja on it…well…speaks volumes! All-American is worldly. Not to mention, Storm Shadow has also been a part of the Joe team.

Did he become a citizen of Japan? **** if I know. He's a blonde white guy that was born and raised in the US. He's a member of the US military. That doesn't make him Japanese.

 

[roach]

well to be fair there are people in the US military that arent US citizens.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Did he become a citizen of Japan? **** if I know. He's a blonde white guy that was born and raised in the US. He's a member of the US military. That doesn't make him Japanese.

Becoming a Japanese citizen does, but more importantly his undertaking and utilizing of Japanese culture admits that G.I. Joe isn’t your definition of All-American.

 

[vicious12000]

Great post mysterio!!!!! i havent ever read or heard a better articulation of what america is that didnt come from the constitution

 

[Turtles]

Hey, Vile, Steve Rogers once dropped the Captain America tile and costume and took on the name Nomad, does that mean he's just as unAmerican as the new set of Joes you despise? Does that mean the creators of Captain America want to send an "America sucks" message to the world just like the creators of the new G.I.Joe movie?

 

[TheVileOne]

Turtles, don't come here in my thread with that weak sauce. No it doesn't mean any of that. Captain America at one point lost faith in himself and was down himself and America and guess what? HE GOT OVER IT!

 

[Sparky]

Wow! You’re a dramatic republican, aren’t you?

You keep bringing up Fox News, the NRA, Republicans, etc. You're a dramatic liberal, aren't you?

I don't envy Joe Johnston in his task. This thread demonstrates the pitfalls in making a Captain America movie. Everyone has their own idea of what America represents and want a Cap who doesn't deviate too far far from their ideals.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Vile what do you actually want? You want a Cap America film where he is shouting cheesy lines like "For America! The golden mother of freedom and justice bla bla bla".

Coz that ain't gonna happen.

Captain America isn't gonna crap on America. But it ain't gonna be shouting "Hey world, you all suck and America rules ok!" Because that just isn't what Captain America is about.

Firstly, straight out of the gate a film called Captain AMERICA is gonna raise some eye brows outside of America. People who don't actually know the character are gonna be like "Ehhh...wha...? **** this ****". They'll think he is some propaganda tool exclaiming that everyone is inferior to America. They'd be wrong of course, but you seem to want them to be right. You seem to want cheesy Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer esque patriotism. That is not the way to go with this film.

There is a reason why most comic book fans think Ultimate Cap is a prick. It's because he is one of those extreme American zealots bordering on racist, that you seem to think is a true American for some strange reason.

And as for Snake Eyes in GI Joe? Yea he is actually American. But as already said, he embraces Japanese culture more than American culture. GI Joe was never just strictly American. Sure it was American soldiers, but it had different facets which had international appeal.

 

[TheVileOne]

Vile what do you actually want? You want a Cap America film where he is shouting cheesy lines like "For America! The golden mother of freedom and justice bla bla bla".

Did I ever say that? Nope. I don't want Hollywood to do to Captain America what they did to GI JOE because it wouldn't sell to "overseas" audiences or some such nonsense, garbage, malarkey.

Coz that ain't gonna happen.

Good.

Captain America isn't gonna crap on America. But it ain't gonna be shouting "Hey world, you all suck and America rules ok!" Because that just isn't what Captain America is about.

That's not what GI JOE is about either.

Firstly, straight out of the gate a film called Captain AMERICA is gonna raise some eye brows outside of America. People who don't actually know the character are gonna be like "Ehhh...wha...? **** this ****". They'll think he is some propaganda tool exclaiming that everyone is inferior to America. They'd be wrong of course, but you seem to want them to be right. You seem to want cheesy Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer esque patriotism. That is not the way to go with this film.

How does it raise eyebrows? We are talking about a character that's been around for about 70 years. Can you prove to me that people overseas and in other countries hate this character?

What is your ******** argument based on? It's based on preconceived Hollywood and liberal biased notions.

There is a reason why most comic book fans think Ultimate Cap is a prick. It's because he is one of those extreme American zealots bordering on racist, that you seem to think is a true American for some strange reason.

Never said that. I also hate Ultimate Cap.

And as for Snake Eyes in GI Joe? Yea he is actually American. But as already said, he embraces Japanese culture more than American culture. GI Joe was never just strictly American. Sure it was American soldiers, but it had different facets which had international appeal.

That doesn't mean anything. GI JOE itself was REAL AMERICAN HERO. GI JOE was a US government military term. GI stood for government issued. GI JOE is old time classic Americana. You can deny it all you want.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I'm not saying people will hate Captain America. I'm saying people outside of America who do not know the character, will assume a guy called Captain AMERICA is just a flag waver, a big "Team America...**** yea!" thing. And they will. It's not being liberal, it's being realistic.

Someone in Britain or France or Asia sees a poster for a film called Captain AMERICA. They don't actually know what Steve Rodgers is about, they don't know that he is more than an American hero, he is a WORLD hero in an American uniform. They'd be like "Ehh...I'll pass on this America rules bollox thank you very much".

I guarantee a lot of interviews and marketing leading up to the film will explain what Steve Rodgers is really about. He isn't some flag waving zealot and he doesn't represent that side of America. He represents the great things about America. But like I said, people not in the know won't think that by looking at his name, so they'll need to be schooled on that, otherwise the film won't do good overseas.

 

[MysterioMenace]

Vile what do you actually want? You want a Cap America film where he is shouting cheesy lines like "For America! The golden mother of freedom and justice bla bla bla".

Coz that ain't gonna happen.

Captain America isn't gonna crap on America. But it ain't gonna be shouting "Hey world, you all suck and America rules ok!" Because that just isn't what Captain America is about.

Firstly, straight out of the gate a film called Captain AMERICA is gonna raise some eye brows outside of America. People who don't actually know the character are gonna be like "Ehhh...wha...? **** this ****". They'll think he is some propaganda tool exclaiming that everyone is inferior to America. They'd be wrong of course, but you seem to want them to be right. You seem to want cheesy Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer esque patriotism. That is not the way to go with this film.

There is a reason why most comic book fans think Ultimate Cap is a prick. It's because he is one of those extreme American zealots bordering on racist, that you seem to think is a true American for some strange reason.

And as for Snake Eyes in GI Joe? Yea he is actually American. But as already said, he embraces Japanese culture more than American culture. GI Joe was never just strictly American. Sure it was American soldiers, but it had different facets which had international appeal.

Very well said! My thoughts exactly!

You keep bringing up Fox News, the NRA, Republicans, etc. You're a dramatic liberal, aren't you?

It would appear so, huh? But it doesn't negate my point. He's not Capt. Conservative as he's sometimes misjudged for due to his patriotism.