ChildLess, ChildFree, and Being Fruitful

[BlackLantern]

so why is that? i grew up in a parent/step parent household and hated it. Is the traditional 2 parent family model obsolete?

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I will NEVER understand why so many people are completely against adopting. The world is so overpopulated....even people who can't have kids still keep trying without using adoption as an option :

have you ever seen the cost of the average adoption? If you want to adopt, you have 2 choices:

1. Adopt domestically which is somewhat costly and you have to wait at least a year to get a child in most cases. All domestic adoptions are now "open adoptions" meaning that the birth parents can come back into the baby's life anytime they want and have some degree of contact with the child. Dont know about you, but if I adopt a child and raise it as my own, I dont want the incompetent bastards who merged the DNA for the baby but couldnt care for it in the first place, to be able to check in on me from time to time and want back into the kids life while we're doing the hard part.

or

2. Adopt internationally, which is prohibitively expensive usually in the $20,000 range in "fees" (which if you ask me amount to almost "buying" the baby.) it also requires numerous international trips which are expensive in their own right and a separate cost from the fees. Not to mention the customs and immigration wranglings you have to go through. And now a lot of countries like Russia have started blocking adoptions by parents in the U.S.

Adoption is a costly and difficult process. You dont just fly to Africa and pick out a kid like your renting a video at Blockbuster. Trust me, I've handled the legal side of about 100 of them. It's a long, costly, and arduous process.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I'll also add this is your posing this question to a bit of a skewed audience. The majority of people on this site are in their teens and early 20's. So having children is one of the farthest things from their minds. I felt the same way at that age and was pissed about the same things.

You've also got a fair amount of curmudgeons here who hate everything about everything about the world, and would stab their own mothers if they thought they could get extra mana on World of Warcraft for doing so...

I just had my first child a few months ago at the age of 31. Do I htink or act differently now? yeha you have to as a parent when your in charge of someone else's life. The problem is you have people, like in all situations, that try to take advantage of that and use it as an excuse to leave work, get special treatment, etc. I'm management at my job and see people do it all the time. As for me personally, i make sure I dont use my kid as an excuse for things at work because I dont want to be unfair to my workers that dont have kids.

One of the things you have to take into account is that our culture is built around the idea of family. even if the definition of what a "family" is may be shifting. So of course our rules and norms are going to be geared toward that. So even though, you may think it's BS that people with kids take advantage of having them with work, and I would agree, but there's not much you can do, because the company cant be seen as being "family unfriendly" b/c then no one wants to work there. Although I will point exceptions like that are made for all different types of employee's all the time. Employee's with physical ailments, ones who care for elderly parents, sick spouses, etc.

As for the tax break thing, it again goes back to our culture of family, it's costly to raise children in this day and the age so the government gives you a tax deduction (which in all honesty isnt all that much compared to other ones people get.) We make 'exceptions" in the tax code all the time, so I'm not sure why people ***** about this one so much? We give deductions to people who have mortgages or who are paying student loans back. we give deductions to people who drive Hybrid vehicles or who have large medical bills. it's not like parents are the only group getting breaks here.

 

[BlackLantern]

I'll also add this is your posing this question to a bit of a skewed audience. The majority of people on this site are in their teens and early 20's. So having children is one of the farthest things from their minds. I felt the same way at that age and was pissed about the same things.

You've also got a fair amount of curmudgeons here who hate everything about everything about the world, and would stab their own mothers if they thought they could get extra mana on World of Warcraft for doing so...

I just had my first child a few months ago at the age of 31. Do I htink or act differently now? yeha you have to as a parent when your in charge of someone else's life. The problem is you have people, like in all situations, that try to take advantage of that and use it as an excuse to leave work, get special treatment, etc. I'm management at my job and see people do it all the time. As for me personally, i make sure I dont use my kid as an excuse for things at work because I dont want to be unfair to my workers that dont have kids.

One of the things you have to take into account is that our culture is built around the idea of family. even if the definition of what a "family" is may be shifting. So of course our rules and norms are going to be geared toward that. So even though, you may think it's BS that people with kids take advantage of having them with work, and I would agree, but there's not much you can do, because the company cant be seen as being "family unfriendly" b/c then no one wants to work there. Although I will point exceptions like that are made for all different types of employee's all the time. Employee's with physical ailments, ones who care for elderly parents, sick spouses, etc.

As for the tax break thing, it again goes back to our culture of family, it's costly to raise children in this day and the age so the government gives you a tax deduction (which in all honesty isnt all that much compared to other ones people get.) We make 'exceptions" in the tax code all the time, so I'm not sure why people ***** about this one so much? We give deductions to people who have mortgages or who are paying student loans back. we give deductions to people who drive Hybrid vehicles or who have large medical bills. it's not like parents are the only group getting breaks here.

awesome post. as for the taxes, it's about the money. a former friend of mine is in a similar line of work as myself. We make just about the same amount of money a year, give or take $100. He is married with a child and gets back double, if not more, then what i'm getting back. I understand families need help...but why is the gap so huge, that's my issue

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

awesome post. as for the taxes, it's about the money. a former friend of mine is in a similar line of work as myself. We make just about the same amount of money a year, give or take $100. He is married with a child and gets back double, if not more, then what i'm getting back. I understand families need help...but why is the gap so huge, that's my issue

well first, people who are married and claim married on their payroll taxes pay less than those who claim single. Then on top of that you add another exemption with the kid and it's even less. technically your friend could claim exemptions for himself and his kid on his paycheck, and if you claim 0 exemptions, he'd be paying a lot less tax. You of course would probably get more money back at the end of the year though

 

[lazur]

No one said anything was wrong with it. We are just debating public perception of people that choose to breed and people that don't. and once again certain people think just because they managed to pop out a human that their opinion has more weight than anyone else. i guess the reason he's left the conversation is because his whining crying tax deduction has a full diaper

I haven't 'left the conversation'. I'm simply done debating on whether it's right or wrong to have kids. Depends on the person.

And no, I never said my opinion is greater than anyone else's. Ever hear of "context"? I am saying that if you do not have a child, you're opinion from the perspective of a PARENT is unfounded and therefore irrelevant.

If you truly think of kids as "whining crying tax deductions," then I hope for humanity's sake you never have children, for you are a PERFECT example of someone who should not have kids. People like you should not be breeding.

Btw, my kid isn't in diapers - she's 15 and, seemingly, way smarter than you. So you see, I'm actually doing something good for the world by replacing someone like you with someone else who's loving, kind and intelligent.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

AH, lazur. I thought you were gone.

I'm out of this silly conversation.

I'm glad to see you back 'cause I wanted to say, when you say:

You point to the EXCEPTIONS as examples for why people shouldn't have kids, and you expect everyone else to just buy into your opinion, everyone else's opinion be damned.

If any of that was referring to me you're very confused.
I'm pointing to the vast, vast, vast majority of people who procreate, and their motivations, as reasons people should stop having kids.
The "EXCEPTIONS" are the very rare cases where people have a decent motive.
And here, I'm talking about America mostly. The only people who have a justifiable reason for having kids are families in poverty-stricken nations where they need help on their farm and if they have 8 kids, 6 of them die.

and finally, with regards to this:

if you don't have kids, you can't comment at ALL from the perspective of a parent. You do not understand and you never will until you, too, 'take the plunge'.

Um, bull****.
I hate that idiotic argument when pro-abortion people use it.
"You're not a woman so you can't say ANYthing about abortion."

Wrong.
I wasn't born sexually attracted to kids, but I can look at pedophiles, learn about them, and then make judgements based on facts about them, even if I haven't "walked in their shoes".

I've never been involved in the production of a Hollywood blockbuster, but I can LOOK at one and then the other, FROM the outside, and say "This one had shoddy editing, the other showed a lot of Kubrick influence. The one sent a dangerous message to kids. The other had excellent effects."



To say that you can't comment at "all" is ******ed.
For instance, you may have never had a child of your own, but you can hear about a Mother finding the dead body of her daughter, and understand that it's ESPECIALLY devastating.

Think, man.

 

[blind_fury]

.

Btw, my kid isn't in diapers - she's 15 and, seemingly, way smarter than you. So you see, I'm actually doing something good for the world by replacing someone like you with someone else who's loving, kind and intelligent.

That's pure speculation. You can't say for sure your child contributes more to this world than an anonymous stranger on the internet.

 

[BlackLantern]

I do hope your child goes on to do great things....I never said I had a higher purpose, I'm just here for the paycheck and hookers

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I do hope your child goes on to do great things....I never said I had a higher purpose, I'm just here for the paycheck and hookers

lazur's daughter could grow up to be a hooker. He doesn't know.
No one says, "I'll bet my daughter will make a fine hooker." But it happens.
There are plenty of devastated and disappointed Dads out there who find out that their little angel was living a lie/double life.

 

[lazur]

That's pure speculation. You can't say for sure your child contributes more to this world than an anonymous stranger on the internet.

Any more than he can call my own child a "whining crying tax deduction" with a "full diaper" you mean?

 

[lazur]

Wrong.
I wasn't born sexually attracted to kids, but I can look at pedophiles, learn about them, and then make judgements based on facts about them, even if I haven't "walked in their shoes".

I've never been involved in the production of a Hollywood blockbuster, but I can LOOK at one and then the other, FROM the outside, and say "This one had shoddy editing, the other showed a lot of Kubrick influence. The one sent a dangerous message to kids. The other had excellent effects."



To say that you can't comment at "all" is ******ed.
For instance, you may have never had a child of your own, but you can hear about a Mother finding the dead body of her daughter, and understand that it's ESPECIALLY devastating.

Think, man.

As someone without your own child, you have NO CLUE as to what level of responsibility and commitment being a RESPONSIBLE parent requires. You can speculate and guess and ponder all you want, but until you've actually experienced just what a SELFLESS lifestyle it is, your opinion is irrelevant. Period.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Any more than he can call my own child a "whining crying tax deduction" with a "full diaper" you mean?

heh, well, let's be realistic.
I'm 99.9999% sure that she has whined, has cried, has filled a diaper and brings a tax deduction to the table, whereas she has yet to save the world with the nobility and righteousness your tutelage has passed along to her.

 

[lazur]

lazur's daughter could grow up to be a hooker. He doesn't know.
No one says, "I'll bet my daughter will make a fine hooker." But it happens.
There are plenty of devastated and disappointed Dads out there who find out that their little angel was living a lie/double life.

Of course I know. This again is a bold demonstration of just how detached you are from what being a parent is all about.

Parents *know* what kind of kids they're raising. Parents *know* when a kid is heading in the wrong direction. And parents *know* when they aren't.

It's how they choose to ACT on what they know that defines the outcome.

And please, the only reason you'd even attempt to insinuate that my daughter might wind up a hooker is to piss me off. Grow a pair and keep it civil, eh?

 

[BlackLantern]

As someone without your own child, you have NO CLUE as to what level of responsibility and commitment being a RESPONSIBLE parent requires. You can speculate and guess and ponder all you want, but until you've actually experienced just what a SELFLESS lifestyle it is, your opinion is irrelevant. Period.

Once again another breeder thinking their opinion means more than anyone else's. Just because you managed to impregnate someone doesn't make your opinion more or less vaild than mine or anyone else's. It's that parental attitude that ticks me off more than anything.

 

[lazur]

heh, well, let's be realistic.
I'm 99.9999% sure that she has whined, has cried, has filled a diaper and brings a tax deduction to the table, whereas she has yet to save the world with the nobility and righteousness your tutelage has passed along to her.

I guess you can come to his defense if you like. His statement was in the present tense - not the past. And it was demeaning to a child he doesn't know and will never know.

 

[lazur]

Once again another breeder thinking their opinion means more than anyone else's. Just because you managed to impregnate someone doesn't make your opinion more or less vaild than mine or anyone else's. It's that parental attitude that ticks me off more than anything.

LOL I don't care what you think of me. You're not a parent, so don't pretend to be able to comment FROM the perspective of a parent. Why is that so hard to understand? What, are you saying that even though you're not a parent, you can still completely relate to and understand a parent's perspective? I think it's evident that you CANNOT based on your hatred of kids.

 

[BlackLantern]

I'm sorry if I hurt her feelings. Should i get a time out???

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

As someone without your own child, you have NO CLUE as to what level of responsibility and commitment being a RESPONSIBLE parent requires. You can speculate and guess and ponder all you want, but until you've actually experienced just what a SELFLESS lifestyle it is, your opinion is irrelevant. Period.

You're an idiot.

I lived with a single mother and had to get up at 5 am every morning with her and take care of her kid and help her out since she was trying to study to become a nurse. I god damned DO have a ****ing "clue".

That's part of the REASON I never want to have a kid, because the ONLY way to do it properly is to almost literally completely give up your own life.
It's a CONSTANT re-focusing of attention and priority from your desires, toward everything from keeping it safe, fed and clothed, working to finance all of that, to teaching it to use a toilet, not to put a Bic pen in the electrical socket, throw food at the walls for fun, making sure it gets sleep 'cause it'll get up in the middle of the night to play woth toys.......it's non-stop.

To say I have "NO CLUE" is ****ing ridiculous.
Why, even being an older SIBLING, even in one's youth, you still get "A CLUE" as to what's required just being older and watching youre parents with your younger sibling.

I'm just.....I'm amazed. You're funny.


Most of all, I don't understand why you're even bringing this UP?
It has NOTHING to do with the arguments against procreation.
In fact, it's a GREAT argument AGAINST it.

 

[BlackLantern]

I see a side of it. I'm the oldest of three and I have seen the struggles my mom went through trying to raise us.

 

[lazur]

I'm sorry if I hurt her feelings. Should i get a time out???

You've proven yourself to be a worthless newbie flamer. Your only point appears to be simply to post hatred and to be mindlessly combative, instead of formulating rational discussion and even showing value to someone else's opinion, even if different from your own.

What must your real life be like if this is how you act on an anonymous message board? Maybe you should take some time to evaluate that.

 

[BlackLantern]

Notice how you are the one who's calling me names first.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Parents *know* what kind of kids they're raising. Parents *know* when a kid is heading in the wrong direction. And parents *know* when they aren't.

I like how you can make blanket generalizations but no one else can.

No, you're wrong. I've known quite a few parents who didn't know.
You forgot the KEY word.


GOOD parents know!
GOOD parents.

And it is my contention that most parents are bad parents, but society muddles through somehow despite it.

And please, the only reason you'd even attempt to insinuate that my daughter might wind up a hooker is to piss me off. Grow a pair and keep it civil, eh?

I didn't say anything uncivil or untrue. It was directly responding to your assertion that your daughter will grow up to be a more productive member of society and have a positive impact on the world than a poster here will or does.

And you don't know that. Sorry. *shrug*

 

[lazur]

You're an idiot.

Whatever you say.

And no, 'babysitting' does not qualify you as a 'parent', nor does it give you even the slightest amount of insight into the level of responsibility and commitment being a parent requires.

Sorry, it appears you're just looking to 'win' the argument by claiming you know everything about everything, even when you do not have the experience to back it up. There are some things in life you cannot intelligently comment on until you've actually DONE it.

But believe what you will, Mr. Allknowing Wilhelm.

 

[lazur]

Notice how you are the one who's calling me names first.

That started when you got personal with my daughter.