ChildLess, ChildFree, and Being Fruitful

[lazur]

So parents that put out cigarettes on their kids still love them?

I would argue that not all parents love their kids.

 

[lazur]

You can't say that 'cause you've never had a child go on a murder spree.

It's very simple, really. If your kid goes on a murdering spree, you may not love your kid for who he is, but you will always love and remember your kid for who he was.

And you're right in that sense. I have no idea what my feelings would be if my kid turned out to be one of the worst humans on the planet. But that's also not something worthy of any thought.

 

[BlackLantern]

I would argue that not all parents love their kids.

...and there is the creamy center.

 

[Spade]

This thread's getting a bit more personal than it need be...

On-topic: I do agree with The Incredible Hulk's point. I know that if I raised my adopted child as my own for the majority of their childhood I'd be really pissed if some hillbilly moron or loser from Cali just came along and was given wide clearance to come back into the kid's life. I have nothing against knowing who your biological parent is. It's an issue of them having given up the kid in the first place and having a change of heart like the child was a car they sold and suddenly want back.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

I agree. But I also believe most people (not all) have kids because they truly want to commit to having a family and raising healthy, productive, DECENT children who will bring something good to the world.

The real question in my mind isn't what motivates people to have kids - it's what they do after that and whether or not what they're doing is actually matching their motivations.

There are a lot of bad parents out there, and a lot of bad kids. But there are also a lot of good ones.

Yes but this isn't a gauge of GOOD or BAD parents. This part of the discussion was about why do we have to have kids ourselves. Your response almost indicates that those same good parents couldn't raise a good child from one of the MANY that are already here(I know you don't mean that but it could be taken that way). I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights, nor am I really persecuting people who have their own kids. But, would it really be so bad if we sat down and took a long look at why we REALLY think we need to have kids.

Because, if it's just about love, then there really shouldn't be an issue with loving the children who are already here and desperately need it.

Thank you.
Yes...beautiful.

Exactly.
See, ANIMALS DO just poo whenever they want to, and they DO just mate whenever they want/can.

Just because that's a natural instinct, it doesn't have to negate our higher mental development.
But when it comes to procreation, wAy too many people let their animal imperative take over.

I think there are a lot of factors, depending on the individual. But one thing most of us cannot deny is sexual desire is responsible for conceiving a lot more children today, than actual necessity or planning... or even the desire to foster love.

 

[Spade]

Most of the people I know tell me they didn't plan out their kid's introduction into life, while in between pulling gum out of their hair and trying to remember their missing third child's name. So yes, it's definitely more about irresponsible sex. That, and the fact that most of the people who do things like this are from families that don't condone that sort of behavior and use the kid's birth as an "I told you so" in some odd belief that the child will instill what parenting never did.

An example: my cousin hasn't had a good relationship with his girlfriend (a sign long ago that he should have left), but now that she's 3 months along he's getting chided from his mother for doing what he did...ironic, because she did the same around his age with his father. I'm sure the kid will appreciate the fact that his parents are still in the dating stage. As for him? This will mean nothing. It never means anything to irresponsible people: ask any mother below 18 and the words "happy accident" and "bundle of joy" replace things like "planning" and "thought-out".

 

[Kelly]

This thread's getting a bit more personal than it need be...

On-topic: I do agree with The Incredible Hulk's point. I know that if I raised my adopted child as my own for the majority of their childhood I'd be really pissed if some hillbilly moron or loser from Cali just came along and was given wide clearance to come back into the kid's life. I have nothing against knowing who your biological parent is. It's an issue of them having given up the kid in the first place and having a change of heart like the child was a car they sold and suddenly want back.

Ya Think?????? lmao.........

 

[BlackLantern]

Yes but this isn't a gauge of GOOD or BAD parents. This part of the discussion was about why do we have to have kids ourselves. Your response almost indicates that those same good parents couldn't raise a good child from one of the MANY that are already here(I know you don't mean that but it could be taken that way). I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights, nor am I really persecuting people who have their own kids. But, would it really be so bad if we sat down and took a long look at why we REALLY think we need to have kids.

Because, if it's just about love, then there really shouldn't be an issue with loving the children who are already here and desperately need it.

I think there are a lot of factors, depending on the individual. But one thing most of us cannot deny is sexual desire is responsible for conceiving a lot more children today, than actual necessity or planning... or even the desire to foster love.

That's why I asked the question.

 

[Kelly]

Most of the people I know tell me they didn't plan out their kid's introduction into life, while in between pulling gum out of their hair and trying to remember their missing third child's name. So yes, it's definitely more about irresponsible sex. That, and the fact that most of the people who do things like this are from families that don't condone that sort of behavior and use the kid's birth as an "I told you so" in some odd belief that the child will instill what parenting never did.

An example: my cousin hasn't had a good relationship with his girlfriend (a sign long ago that he should have left), but now that she's 3 months along he's getting chided from his mother for doing what he did...ironic, because she did the same around his age with his father. I'm sure the kid will appreciate the fact that his parents are still in the dating stage. As for him? This will mean nothing. It never means anything to irresponsible people: ask any mother below 18 and the words "happy accident" and "bundle of joy" replace things like "planning" and "thought-out".

What woman actually "PLANS" pain like that.......lol



DRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGS........give me the druuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugs.....that would be my planning.

 

[Spade]

Well, I meant the sex part. And I know a few women that actually consider a drug-free birth to avoid the baby being groggy in its first moments outside the womb.

 

[BlackLantern]

Who doesn't love a stoned baby?

 

[Morg]

Okay, answer me this then - since when does what someone does for a living define what that person can contribute to society, or how does it define whether or not that person does good or bad for the world?

It's not a 'job' that defines someone. It's how they live their life and what they DO with whatever resources they have. For example, you take a hooker who gives 10% of her income to charity, and you take a corporate CEO who gives nothing to charity, and tell me who is doing more for society? Who is the better person?

The hooker and she'll probably be better company then the CEO

 

[Kelly]

Well, I meant the sex part. And I know a few women that actually consider a drug-free birth to avoid the baby being groggy in its first moments outside the womb.

And thats probably why I'm childless.....

 

[Bill]

have you ever seen the cost of the average adoption? If you want to adopt, you have 2 choices:

1. Adopt domestically which is somewhat costly and you have to wait at least a year to get a child in most cases. All domestic adoptions are now "open adoptions" meaning that the birth parents can come back into the baby's life anytime they want and have some degree of contact with the child. Dont know about you, but if I adopt a child and raise it as my own, I dont want the incompetent bastards who merged the DNA for the baby but couldnt care for it in the first place, to be able to check in on me from time to time and want back into the kids life while we're doing the hard part.

or

2. Adopt internationally, which is prohibitively expensive usually in the $20,000 range in "fees" (which if you ask me amount to almost "buying" the baby.) it also requires numerous international trips which are expensive in their own right and a separate cost from the fees. Not to mention the customs and immigration wranglings you have to go through. And now a lot of countries like Russia have started blocking adoptions by parents in the U.S.

Adoption is a costly and difficult process. You dont just fly to Africa and pick out a kid like your renting a video at Blockbuster. Trust me, I've handled the legal side of about 100 of them. It's a long, costly, and arduous process.

I will say a little something about adoption because we just got through with it. I'll try to hit on why we didn't choose domestic and the reasons.

First, the domestic side. One of the things that initially had us worried about adoption in general was the cost. And you're right, it is an expensive undertaking. Domestic adoptions have the possiblity of costing more because the expectant mother's hospitalization fees are your responsibility. And we were very frightened that once we paid out all that money, the mother could change her mind and take the baby. We would have no recourse. In some states, the amount of time the mother has is different. In NY, it's 30 days. In OK, it's 6 mos. NY honors whichever time is longer. All we could picture is having the baby for 6 months, and then Grandma stepping in for the mother and deciding that she doesn't want her grandchild with another family. Then comes the headache of open (in which the mother is involved) and closed(in which she is not) adoptions.

We decided to go with China because the parents are not involved in any way. The cost is set, and the agency let us know up front what we needed to have. We were given everything in increments so we didn't need to have all the money at once. The process, for us, took two years from start to finish. And that wait is mostly on China due to the popularity of Chinese adoptions. If things had went smoothly, it would have taken about 8-10 mos.

We paid, all told, $25,000. And that included everything. Fees, travel and legal expenses, and spending money. Our agency set us up with a local guide, and we stayed in very nice hotels with all food paid for. We went one time to China, so no "multiple trips". That may be the case with some countries, but not China. I know some only require you to go to NYC to a consulate where they bring the baby to you. I learned a great deal about her country on that trip, and I wouldn't give that up for a second. I'm glad we went.

The guide not only got us through the red tape there, but managed to show us some sites and culture while we were there. The Chinese officials were very concerned about the well-being of the baby and the compatibility with the parents. We went through multiple interviews with their officials. Before we left, a social worker examined every aspect of both our lives, past history, financial, state of marriage, emotional state, our home, our criminal history, everything. All of this was compiled into a dossier and sent to China. We also had to send pictures of us and our family. It was very invasive, but we put up with it. We also had to a lot of paperwork, character profiles by friends and fingerprinting both local and federal.

Customs and immigration was actually no problem at all. Our guide and our agency ensured we had all the proper paperwork, and that was actually the easiest time with officials we had. In fact, most of the customs and immigration officials were so enamored with the babies, they never bothered checking us.

I can't say that it was an easy process, but looking back on it, the wait was the hardest part of it. The paperwork only took us 4 mos. to complete. We waited the rest of time. And that is hard.

 

[Kritish]

It's very simple, really. If your kid goes on a murdering spree, you may not love your kid for who he is, but you will always love and remember your kid for who he was.

And you're right in that sense. I have no idea what my feelings would be if my kid turned out to be one of the worst humans on the planet. But that's also not something worthy of any thought.

I’d love my kid even more if he went on a killing spree, think of all the money I’d make from the interviews and the locks of hair from his comb I’ll auction off.

 

[BlackLantern]

I will say a little something about adoption because we just got through with it. I'll try to hit on why we didn't choose domestic and the reasons.

First, the domestic side. One of the things that initially had us worried about adoption in general was the cost. And you're right, it is an expensive undertaking. Domestic adoptions have the possiblity of costing more because the expectant mother's hospitalization fees are your responsibility. And we were very frightened that once we paid out all that money, the mother could change her mind and take the baby. We would have no recourse. In some states, the amount of time the mother has is different. In NY, it's 30 days. In OK, it's 6 mos. NY honors whichever time is longer. All we could picture is having the baby for 6 months, and then Grandma stepping in for the mother and deciding that she doesn't want her grandchild with another family. Then comes the headache of open (in which the mother is involved) and closed(in which she is not) adoptions.

We decided to go with China because the parents are not involved in any way. The cost is set, and the agency let us know up front what we needed to have. We were given everything in increments so we didn't need to have all the money at once. The process, for us, took two years from start to finish. And that wait is mostly on China due to the popularity of Chinese adoptions. If things had went smoothly, it would have taken about 8-10 mos.

We paid, all told, $25,000. And that included everything. Fees, travel and legal expenses, and spending money. Our agency set us up with a local guide, and we stayed in very nice hotels with all food paid for. We went one time to China, so no "multiple trips". That may be the case with some countries, but not China. I know some only require you to go to NYC to a consulate where they bring the baby to you. I learned a great deal about her country on that trip, and I wouldn't give that up for a second. I'm glad we went.

The guide not only got us through the red tape there, but managed to show us some sites and culture while we were there. The Chinese officials were very concerned about the well-being of the baby and the compatibility with the parents. We went through multiple interviews with their officials. Before we left, a social worker examined every aspect of both our lives, past history, financial, state of marriage, emotional state, our home, our criminal history, everything. All of this was compiled into a dossier and sent to China. We also had to send pictures of us and our family. It was very invasive, but we put up with it. We also had to a lot of paperwork, character profiles by friends and fingerprinting both local and federal.

Customs and immigration was actually no problem at all. Our guide and our agency ensured we had all the proper paperwork, and that was actually the easiest time with officials we had. In fact, most of the customs and immigration officials were so enamored with the babies, they never bothered checking us.

I can't say that it was an easy process, but looking back on it, the wait was the hardest part of it. The paperwork only took us 4 mos. to complete. We waited the rest of time. And that is hard.

Great post, and i'm fairly sure the child, even the he isnt your biological child, will receive all the love and attention you can muster

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I will say a little something about adoption because we just got through with it. I'll try to hit on why we didn't choose domestic and the reasons.

First, the domestic side. One of the things that initially had us worried about adoption in general was the cost. And you're right, it is an expensive undertaking. Domestic adoptions have the possiblity of costing more because the expectant mother's hospitalization fees are your responsibility. And we were very frightened that once we paid out all that money, the mother could change her mind and take the baby. We would have no recourse. In some states, the amount of time the mother has is different. In NY, it's 30 days. In OK, it's 6 mos. NY honors whichever time is longer. All we could picture is having the baby for 6 months, and then Grandma stepping in for the mother and deciding that she doesn't want her grandchild with another family. Then comes the headache of open (in which the mother is involved) and closed(in which she is not) adoptions.

We decided to go with China because the parents are not involved in any way. The cost is set, and the agency let us know up front what we needed to have. We were given everything in increments so we didn't need to have all the money at once. The process, for us, took two years from start to finish. And that wait is mostly on China due to the popularity of Chinese adoptions. If things had went smoothly, it would have taken about 8-10 mos.

We paid, all told, $25,000. And that included everything. Fees, travel and legal expenses, and spending money. Our agency set us up with a local guide, and we stayed in very nice hotels with all food paid for. We went one time to China, so no "multiple trips". That may be the case with some countries, but not China. I know some only require you to go to NYC to a consulate where they bring the baby to you. I learned a great deal about her country on that trip, and I wouldn't give that up for a second. I'm glad we went.

The guide not only got us through the red tape there, but managed to show us some sites and culture while we were there. The Chinese officials were very concerned about the well-being of the baby and the compatibility with the parents. We went through multiple interviews with their officials. Before we left, a social worker examined every aspect of both our lives, past history, financial, state of marriage, emotional state, our home, our criminal history, everything. All of this was compiled into a dossier and sent to China. We also had to send pictures of us and our family. It was very invasive, but we put up with it. We also had to a lot of paperwork, character profiles by friends and fingerprinting both local and federal.

Customs and immigration was actually no problem at all. Our guide and our agency ensured we had all the proper paperwork, and that was actually the easiest time with officials we had. In fact, most of the customs and immigration officials were so enamored with the babies, they never bothered checking us.

I can't say that it was an easy process, but looking back on it, the wait was the hardest part of it. The paperwork only took us 4 mos. to complete. We waited the rest of time. And that is hard.

Congratulations. I know all the time and effort was well worth it. That process, especially internationally, is a true test of will. Best of luck on your new family

Didnt deal with too many Chinese adoptions, most of ours were from Eastern Europe where they dont have the level of organization of the Chinese.

That was always the best part of when I was doing family law though was when people completed their adoptions. Well that and some of the fights during the discovery sessions for the divorce cases, but I digress

 

[Kelly]

I will say a little something about adoption because we just got through with it. I'll try to hit on why we didn't choose domestic and the reasons.

First, the domestic side. One of the things that initially had us worried about adoption in general was the cost. And you're right, it is an expensive undertaking. Domestic adoptions have the possiblity of costing more because the expectant mother's hospitalization fees are your responsibility. And we were very frightened that once we paid out all that money, the mother could change her mind and take the baby. We would have no recourse. In some states, the amount of time the mother has is different. In NY, it's 30 days. In OK, it's 6 mos. NY honors whichever time is longer. All we could picture is having the baby for 6 months, and then Grandma stepping in for the mother and deciding that she doesn't want her grandchild with another family. Then comes the headache of open (in which the mother is involved) and closed(in which she is not) adoptions.

We decided to go with China because the parents are not involved in any way. The cost is set, and the agency let us know up front what we needed to have. We were given everything in increments so we didn't need to have all the money at once. The process, for us, took two years from start to finish. And that wait is mostly on China due to the popularity of Chinese adoptions. If things had went smoothly, it would have taken about 8-10 mos.

We paid, all told, $25,000. And that included everything. Fees, travel and legal expenses, and spending money. Our agency set us up with a local guide, and we stayed in very nice hotels with all food paid for. We went one time to China, so no "multiple trips". That may be the case with some countries, but not China. I know some only require you to go to NYC to a consulate where they bring the baby to you. I learned a great deal about her country on that trip, and I wouldn't give that up for a second. I'm glad we went.

The guide not only got us through the red tape there, but managed to show us some sites and culture while we were there. The Chinese officials were very concerned about the well-being of the baby and the compatibility with the parents. We went through multiple interviews with their officials. Before we left, a social worker examined every aspect of both our lives, past history, financial, state of marriage, emotional state, our home, our criminal history, everything. All of this was compiled into a dossier and sent to China. We also had to send pictures of us and our family. It was very invasive, but we put up with it. We also had to a lot of paperwork, character profiles by friends and fingerprinting both local and federal.

Customs and immigration was actually no problem at all. Our guide and our agency ensured we had all the proper paperwork, and that was actually the easiest time with officials we had. In fact, most of the customs and immigration officials were so enamored with the babies, they never bothered checking us.

I can't say that it was an easy process, but looking back on it, the wait was the hardest part of it. The paperwork only took us 4 mos. to complete. We waited the rest of time. And that is hard.

That's an awesome story, thank you for sharing...

 

[Speedball]

I will say a little something about adoption because we just got through with it. I'll try to hit on why we didn't choose domestic and the reasons.

First, the domestic side. One of the things that initially had us worried about adoption in general was the cost. And you're right, it is an expensive undertaking. Domestic adoptions have the possiblity of costing more because the expectant mother's hospitalization fees are your responsibility. And we were very frightened that once we paid out all that money, the mother could change her mind and take the baby. We would have no recourse. In some states, the amount of time the mother has is different. In NY, it's 30 days. In OK, it's 6 mos. NY honors whichever time is longer. All we could picture is having the baby for 6 months, and then Grandma stepping in for the mother and deciding that she doesn't want her grandchild with another family. Then comes the headache of open (in which the mother is involved) and closed(in which she is not) adoptions.

We decided to go with China because the parents are not involved in any way. The cost is set, and the agency let us know up front what we needed to have. We were given everything in increments so we didn't need to have all the money at once. The process, for us, took two years from start to finish. And that wait is mostly on China due to the popularity of Chinese adoptions. If things had went smoothly, it would have taken about 8-10 mos.

We paid, all told, $25,000. And that included everything. Fees, travel and legal expenses, and spending money. Our agency set us up with a local guide, and we stayed in very nice hotels with all food paid for. We went one time to China, so no "multiple trips". That may be the case with some countries, but not China. I know some only require you to go to NYC to a consulate where they bring the baby to you. I learned a great deal about her country on that trip, and I wouldn't give that up for a second. I'm glad we went.

The guide not only got us through the red tape there, but managed to show us some sites and culture while we were there. The Chinese officials were very concerned about the well-being of the baby and the compatibility with the parents. We went through multiple interviews with their officials. Before we left, a social worker examined every aspect of both our lives, past history, financial, state of marriage, emotional state, our home, our criminal history, everything. All of this was compiled into a dossier and sent to China. We also had to send pictures of us and our family. It was very invasive, but we put up with it. We also had to a lot of paperwork, character profiles by friends and fingerprinting both local and federal.

Customs and immigration was actually no problem at all. Our guide and our agency ensured we had all the proper paperwork, and that was actually the easiest time with officials we had. In fact, most of the customs and immigration officials were so enamored with the babies, they never bothered checking us.

I can't say that it was an easy process, but looking back on it, the wait was the hardest part of it. The paperwork only took us 4 mos. to complete. We waited the rest of time. And that is hard.

My cousin is was adopted from China. And what you said was pretty much the same experience my aunt and uncle had. It was probably one of the best decisions they have ever made.

 

[Spade]

Bill needs to post more often in Community. It's nice to see a level-headed poster who can see all sides giving some input here.