Christopher Nolan's Inception

[Anita18]

I've been browsing through the thread and I haven't read anything about

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Cobb's Totem. It once belonged to his wife Mal and it is supposed to be unique to each person. You shouldn't even be allowed to touch another person's totem. Doesn't this support an ending where Cobb is in a dream?

Well Mal is

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already dead so I suppose it won't defeat the purpose if he uses her totem. I think Cobb even says that Mal invented the concept of a totem, so Cobb wouldn't have one before Mal died.

 

[El KnightoDarko]

About the multiple dreamers' thing:

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The first 3 levels of dreams were in Fischer's mind. That is the point of the whole movie, to penetrate deep into Fischer's subconscious and plant the seed of the idea, to make it believable to Fischer when he wakes up. I don't get the posts on the previous page that say the 1st level was Yusuf's dream, the 2nd level was Arthur's dream etc. It invalidates the whole premise of inception IMO.

Also, the architect's job was basically to construct dream worlds in the target's mind that the main characters were familiar with. On each dream level one of the characters would not progress to the deeper dream state, and would stay behind to provide a kick to the other characters. On the first level it was Yusuf, on the second level it was Arthur, and on the third it was Eames. Of course, as Cobb explained at the outset, dream time becomes progressively faster as we progress deeper into the subconscious (10 seconds in dream level 1 becomes 2 minutes in dream level 2 and 16 minutes in dream level 3, if I remember correctly), so they use music to synchronize the kicks (it is the kicker's job from the previous dream level to warn the kicker in the current dream level that it's time to wake up. I guess this works because the music itself would slow down as it went from one dream level to the other, providing a sort of time standard that the dreamers could follow at each level).

Fischer's comment about the beach was because he thought they had broken into Browning's subconscious, not his own.

The only other dreamer was Cobb (4th level, after Fischer and Saito died).

 

[Solidus]

No, actually like your theory a lot!

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Inception within inception is totally thematically relevant, even though I don't think it matters whether we're given any concrete proof of it.

Cobb does.

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That's why Mal and the kids keep on showing up. The others have a better handle on their subconscious, but Cobb doesn't.

It's also mentioned in dialogue [blackout]whose dream they're in at each level. Arthur scolds Yusuf for not peeing before the exercise, which is why the rain in LA is Yusuf's dream. [/blackout]

You put it better than I did. It took me 5 paragraphs and you put it in one nice sentence. Good job lol.

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And yes it is Yasiffs dream in the first level. That is why they do tease him cuz he pissed his pants as he started to sleep and it caused it to rain. As well when the blocks came up on the bridge and hit the car, it was because he was changing the dream there to safely get away.

 

[DarKJediKnight]

The first part I explained in full. Yes there are each team members not one person. It makes no sense. Go back a page and read all my posts with Heretic. It is not Fischer's world. It can't be.

I've already got that after

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reading about Yusuf wetting himself. My main concern is about limbo.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

What would you guys use for a totem?

I would probably use a gold coin that would flip on its side if I was still dreaming.

 

[Solidus]

About the multiple dreamers' thing:

Spoiler

The first 3 levels of dreams were in Fischer's mind. That is the point of the whole movie, to penetrate deep into Fischer's subconscious and plant the seed of the idea, to make it believable to Fischer when he wakes up. I don't get the posts on the previous page that say the 1st level was Yusuf's dream, the 2nd level was Arthur's dream etc. It invalidates the whole premise of inception IMO.

Also, the architect's job was basically to construct dream worlds in the target's mind that the main characters were familiar with. On each dream level one of the characters would not progress to the deeper dream state, and would stay behind to provide a kick to the other characters. On the first level it was Yusuf, on the second level it was Arthur, and on the third it was Eames. Of course, as Cobb explained at the outset, dream time becomes progressively faster as we progress deeper into the subconscious (10 seconds in dream level 1 becomes 2 minutes in dream level 2 and 16 minutes in dream level 3, if I remember correctly), so they use music to synchronize the kicks (it is the kicker's job from the previous dream level to warn the kicker in the current dream level that it's time to wake up. I guess this works because the music itself would slow down as it went from one dream level to the other, providing a sort of time standard that the dreamers could follow at each level).

Fischer's comment about the beach was because he thought they had broken into Browning's subconscious, not his own.

The only other dreamer was Cobb (4th level, after Fischer and Saito died).

No no no no no no.

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The architect designs the levels. She has to create a maze so the mark's subconscious will not be able to navigate it easily and keep the team safe. Normally the Architect does not go into the dream. Page was not going into the dream but she complained and got to go.

If it was Fischer's dream.....then there would be no maze. Why would he set himself up to a heist in his own dream? He would not create what the architect made.....he can't cuz he does not know the designs. Remember the models Page was making? Those were for the team members. Which is why.

1. In Level one-Yasiff pisses his pants, and the team teases him and that is why its raining. As well he's awake, and knows level one because he has to navigate through it to get the kick.

2. Level 2 its Arthur which is why if focuses on him while his gravity is going chaotic because he is in control of that dream.

3. Level 3 is Eames, because he is navigating through it, and its why Page said to Cobb that he implanted a tunnel into the original design. Because Eames wanted his dream that way. And again which is why he did say dream up of a beach.

There is no evidence and its not a theory. It takes multiple people to go with dreams within dreams. And it clearly states it throughout.

If it was Fischer's dream there would be no architect design because if she did change the dream that was Fischers just like she did with Cobb the subconscious would kill everyone in an instance. It is suppose to feel real. And it also needs to be a maze to protect the team. If it is not. Then simply Fischer wins and relies its a dream and heist.

The team members need to single handled know the dreams design. That is why Cobb says he can't see it. How the hell would Fischer know to dream up what Page made? He can't, its not his dream. They are just after the subconscious. Remember the line from the trailer/movie. "We create the world of the dream, we bring the subject INTO THAT DREAM and they fill it with their subconscious."

That's how it goes end of story.

 

[Solidus]

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Just to say it simply again lol. From the trailer and the movie. So I guess it aint a spoiler. But just in case.

Cobb: We create the world of the dream. We bring that subject INTO that dream....and they fill it with their subconscious."

He clearly states that's how it goes.

 

[DarKJediKnight]

How about my question about the limbo?

 

[Anita18]

How about my question about the limbo?

I just don't think anybody knows for sure. Maybe nobody's tried it.

 

[Anita18]

No no no no no no.

Spoiler

The architect designs the levels. She has to create a maze so the mark's subconscious will not be able to navigate it easily and keep the team safe. Normally the Architect does not go into the dream. Page was not going into the dream but she complained and got to go.

If it was Fischer's dream.....then there would be no maze. Why would he set himself up to a heist in his own dream? He would not create what the architect made.....he can't cuz he does not know the designs. Remember the models Page was making? Those were for the team members. Which is why.

1. In Level one-Yasiff pisses his pants, and the team teases him and that is why its raining. As well he's awake, and knows level one because he has to navigate through it to get the kick.

2. Level 2 its Arthur which is why if focuses on him while his gravity is going chaotic because he is in control of that dream.

3. Level 3 is Eames, because he is navigating through it, and its why Page said to Cobb that he implanted a tunnel into the original design. Because Eames wanted his dream that way. And again which is why he did say dream up of a beach.

There is no evidence and its not a theory. It takes multiple people to go with dreams within dreams. And it clearly states it throughout.

If it was Fischer's dream there would be no architect design because if she did change the dream that was Fischers just like she did with Cobb the subconscious would kill everyone in an instance. It is suppose to feel real. And it also needs to be a maze to protect the team. If it is not. Then simply Fischer wins and relies its a dream and heist.

The team members need to single handled know the dreams design. That is why Cobb says he can't see it. How the hell would Fischer know to dream up what Page made? He can't, its not his dream. They are just after the subconscious. Remember the line from the trailer/movie. "We create the world of the dream, we bring the subject INTO THAT DREAM and they fill it with their subconscious."

That's how it goes end of story.

Thanks for the long explanation! There were times when **** happened and I'd think, "Ariadne should do something about this!"

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But if she wasn't in control of the dream then that would make more sense hahaha. That and they can't change it TOO much or else the projections would get more militant.

 

[-Arya-]

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Solidus has a point here. After a moment's time to deal with all the semantic issues of the words, I think I understand. All the actual dream levels are not Fischer's, but the subconscious thoughts are Fischer's.

The tagline from the trailer alone explains this.

 

[DarKJediKnight]

But am I correct in my assessment that

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Dom, Mal and Saito were able to woke up because they're no longer under sedation?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

No no no no no no.

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The architect designs the levels. She has to create a maze so the mark's subconscious will not be able to navigate it easily and keep the team safe. Normally the Architect does not go into the dream. Page was not going into the dream but she complained and got to go.

If it was Fischer's dream.....then there would be no maze. Why would he set himself up to a heist in his own dream? He would not create what the architect made.....he can't cuz he does not know the designs. Remember the models Page was making? Those were for the team members. Which is why.

1. In Level one-Yasiff pisses his pants, and the team teases him and that is why its raining. As well he's awake, and knows level one because he has to navigate through it to get the kick.

2. Level 2 its Arthur which is why if focuses on him while his gravity is going chaotic because he is in control of that dream.

3. Level 3 is Eames, because he is navigating through it, and its why Page said to Cobb that he implanted a tunnel into the original design. Because Eames wanted his dream that way. And again which is why he did say dream up of a beach.

There is no evidence and its not a theory. It takes multiple people to go with dreams within dreams. And it clearly states it throughout.

If it was Fischer's dream there would be no architect design because if she did change the dream that was Fischers just like she did with Cobb the subconscious would kill everyone in an instance. It is suppose to feel real. And it also needs to be a maze to protect the team. If it is not. Then simply Fischer wins and relies its a dream and heist.

The team members need to single handled know the dreams design. That is why Cobb says he can't see it. How the hell would Fischer know to dream up what Page made? He can't, its not his dream. They are just after the subconscious. Remember the line from the trailer/movie. "We create the world of the dream, we bring the subject INTO THAT DREAM and they fill it with their subconscious."

That's how it goes end of story.

That makes the most sense and I accept that.

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Page creates the world that they dream up with Fischer filling the world with his subconscious.

 

[omid17]

But am I correct in my assessment that

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Dom, Mal and Saito were able to woke up because they're no longer under sedation?

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im no sure about this but i think people don't realize they're in a limbo, that's why after 50 years Cobb realized he's still dreaming and tried to convince Mal be she didn't believe him, that's why i guess he pulled inception on her. Also probably why Leo had to save Saito cause he doesnt know and you can tell by his age

 

[UltimateMangod]

Okay guys, answer this...

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If it is true that there were multiple dreamers, and not just layers of Cillian Murphy's...then why do NONE of them create any random people except Murphy? The dreamer populates the dream...and yet the dreamers opted not to and instead let Cillian populate it with people who want to stop them? Heck, in the snow level, the person getting shot at the most is the guy people claim was having the dream...which is absurd since his creations should have been going after everyone BUT him. Why were his own population/creations trying to kill him the whole time when they should have immediately recognized him as the dreamer and stayed true to their mission of protecting the dream from outsiders, like Murphy...who no one seemed to care about at all...because it was all his dream.

Seriously...I've seen no evidence that shows that there were multiple dreamers. It's all "they knew the layout" which is exactly what any trained person would do if they were in charge of a part of the mission. "Oh, my part is to handle all the hotel stuff...give me all the info I need about the hotel part of Murphy's dream then".

Sorry...I just see so much evidence leading to one dreamer and none leading to multiples aside from people wanting it to be that way.

I think this site does a good job of helping explain who is dreaming and whatnot. I saw it linked earlier. http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Inception-Explained-Unraveling-The-Dream-Within-The-Dream-19615.html#

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As I understand it, none of the dreams are Fisher's. And by dream I mean the "physical" location, whether it's the rainy city, the hotel or the fortress. However, it's Fisher's subconscious that's brought into each dream. It's how they can steal the ideas. They know the layout of the entire place while the subject is unaware of the fact he is dreaming. No one else populates the dream because their subconscious would attack the target and kill him, which prevents them from stealing any idea. Cobb's problem is that he is having trouble controlling his subconscious, explaining why Mal is malicious toward everyone. At her core she's like all the other projections, except Cobb tried to fully recreate her rather than leave her as she was. I would continue but I now see everyone else has made basically the same points as me, especially brining up the line from the trailer.

 

[Avengers-Report]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.

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1. How do you get to limbo? How did Mal and Cobb get to their limbo and get out?
2. In the 4th dream layer, is that limbo? If not, why does it look like Cobb's previous limbo?
3. What world were Sotto and Cobb in at the end of the film?
4. How do you get back to reality from there?

 

[DarKJediKnight]

Spoiler

im no sure about this but i think people don't realize they're in a limbo, that's why after 50 years Cobb realized he's still dreaming and tried to convince Mal be she didn't believe him, that's why i guess he pulled inception on her. Also probably why Leo had to save Saito cause he doesnt know and you can tell by his age

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I get that dreamers doesn't realize they're in a limbo after spending a couple of minutes (in real world) within it, but the reason they got into it is because they died in the dream but can't wake up. But if they can wake up and dies in the dream, they will just wake up right? And they can wake up because they're no longer under heavy sedation. That's what I'm asking If I'm correct on whether the sedative has already expired when they got out of the limbo.

 

[Poeman]

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What about the phone scene Solidus, do you hear a third, older child's voice?

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the daughter sounded much older than she looked...but we cant fo on that now...the girls voice just may be a bit unusual for her age

 

[Tron Bonne]

What would you guys use for a totem?

Weighted Stay Puft Marshmallow man doll

 

[Anita18]

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.

Spoiler

1. How do you get to limbo? How did Mal and Cobb get to their limbo and get out?
2. In the 4th dream layer, is that limbo? If not, why does it look like Cobb's previous limbo?
3. What world were Sotto and Cobb in at the end of the film?
4. How do you get back to reality from there?

Spoiler

1. You get into limbo if you're under heavy sedation in a dream and get killed. You won't wake up because you're so heavily sedated, so that's where you go. I think Mal and Cobb were testing out different chemicals for sedation and it got out of control. Maybe they were trying to escape a dream and found themselves in limbo instead. I think once you get into limbo, the sedation will eventually wear off and you get killed in the dream, you'll wake up for real like any normal dream. It's just that in limbo, you're in so deep that you have a very hard time judging whether you're in a dream at all. You accept it as your reality.

2. I'm not sure if the 4th dream layer is Cobb's limbo, since Ariadne and Cobb don't kill themselves to get there. It's definitely Cobb's dream though, so I'm not sure if it matters if it's THE limbo or not.

3. I think Saito and Cobb were at least in Saito's version of limbo at the end of the film. Saito died in level 1/3 and Cobb died in level 1 when he drowned in the van.

4. I think once the sedation wears off, you can get killed and return like normal.

 

[Poeman]

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So the entirety of your point rests on the fact that one guy stayed behind in each level...despite all other evidence and statements claiming that it was all levels of Cillian's dreams??? So like the viewer over-complicating things to me. One guy stayed behind in each level because a kick was needed, not because it was their dream. They kept going into deeper levels to trick Cillian Murphy's subconscious. If it was anyone but Murphy's dream, they could have just said "in this dream, Murphy is a moron that will listen to whatever we say". Again, the armed guards were ONLY there to protect Cillian's subconscious...and they are in every level. I just dont see any reason why the story needs to be over-complicated just for the sake of being over-complicated. It makes perfect sense as one persons dream, just as the movie explains repeatedly.

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They orchestrated Cillian Murphy's subconscious within Yusuf,Arthur,Eames dream...Mainly because an architect can formulate and control the designs there...Even though Murphy's character can create projections within the other persons dream

 

[omid17]

Spoiler

I get that dreamers doesn't realize they're in a limbo after spending a couple of minutes (in real world) within it, but the reason they got into it is because they died in the dream but can't wake up. But if they can wake up and dies in the dream, they will just wake up right? And they can wake up because they're no longer under heavy sedation. That's what I'm asking If I'm correct on whether the sedative has already expired when they got out of the limbo.

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yea i don't know about the expired seadtive part but maby this helps a little bit


Why is Saito so much older than Cobb in the final dream level?
A: It's likely that Cobb and Saito are in limbo for the same amount of time, however Cobb knows he's in limbo, so perhaps this keeps him from [COLOR=#0000A5 ! important][COLOR=#0000A5 ! important]aging[/COLOR][/COLOR] visibly. Saito on the other hand seems to have forgotten where he is, and so the passage of time (which could have been decades since time runs faster the deeper you go) has more of an affect on him. Similarly, the first time Cobb and Mal end up in limbo they aged because they've forgotten where they really are and accepted it as their reality.

How do Cobb and Saito survive limbo for such an extended period of time? Isn’t your mind supposed to burn out in there?
A: The film never actually says your mind will burn out there, merely suggest that you'll become lost there and be unable to find your way out. The real obstacle to getting out of limbo seems to be realizing that you're in limbo. At the end of the film, it takes an appearance by Cobb to remind Saito that the world he's in isn't real, and once he realizes Saito reaches for a gun and, presumably, shoots himself in order to escape. It could be that your brain only actually is damaged out if you stay in Limbo for the full term, or if you stay there after the machine connection powering the dream is disconnected.

 

[Heretic]

. This is not a theory part this is just the rules of the dream world that has been set up.

You are forgetting huge things.

Spoiler

Remember Mr. Charlie? It was a tactic Cobb used on Fischer to have his own subconscious turn against him, it worked. Where he convinces a trained person that he is dreaming and that he is "Fischer" subconscious and convincing him that he is his subconscious not the others. By tricking himself Fischer believes it. That is why later on they are attacking him in the second and third levels.

Now as for you saying why are they not populating? Well there is nothing to say they are not. But none of the others subconscious projections are attacking them because none of them are having extraction or foreign invaders trying to take in. Remember they said they attack when they know that some one is trying to get into or invade another subconscious. So who ever is being marked the subconscious (mainly the raw) goes after those who are not themselves.

Cobb subconscious projections do intervene in the world. Not just Fischer. Remember I said before Mal and the train are Cobb's not Fischer. So Cobb is leaking into it because they are trying inception on him as well.

The subconscious knows when some one is trying to invade, that is what they talked about, so if you are not the target there is no reason you subconscious is worried because the team in in control, they know that they are not being extracted (for the most part) so their subconscious is not after them. Sometimes it can though for weak members of the team. Like Luke Haas character it does seem to go after him.

But that is how the rules work. It says it pretty clearly in the film

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Your first excuse...that Cillian Murphy's subconscious was tricked in the snow part...and therefore his own subconscious was attacking him because his subconscious thought it was actually someone else's subconscious is...kind of absurd. I am a big believer in Occam's Razor...the simplest idea is usually correct. Your concept of his own subconscious believing it was the subconscious of a guy who wasnt even in that part of the dream makes things more complicated. If his subconscious thought it was someone elses subconscious and they were trying to protect the host, then where was this host? Oh yeah...not even on that realm of existence.

If the hotel part was Gordon-Levitt's dream...why was it full of Cillian Murphy's friends? Why were Gordon Levitt's own projections trying to kill him the entire freaking time??? You're telling me that Gordon Levitt made a dream world where everyone was trying to stop him from achieving his goal, made up of the targets friends...and made things as difficult as humanly possible?? Why would he do that?? Again...the much simpler concept is that it was Cillian Murphy's dream and Gordon Levitt was the intruder....which is what the movie said, and what the movie showed.

Cobb's projections keep interfering. You're right about that...but his projections interfere in ALL of his missions. You can't use that as any kind of proof because his projections interfere in every dream he breaks into. His subconscious was not just affecting this one job...it affected all jobs...including the one in the beginning that absolutely everyone agrees was Watanabe's dream. So, if you are using that as proof, then you must say that the ENTIRE movie...and the ENTIRE prequel comic, all take place in Dicaprios dream.

 

[Poeman]

WOW.

I've seen Inception 3 times in 2 days.

I luv it!

BTW, there are two moments with Ken Watanabe where I still can't make out what he says:

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1. After he says, "I bought the airline.." what does he say after everyone turns and looks at him?
2. After Eames leaves Saito and gives him the grenade to cover the team while he went to plant the charges. I can't make out what he says to Eames.

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I know for the second one he mocks Eames..."No room for tourists" thats what he said, because Eames asked him to do something

 

[Heretic]

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They orchestrated Cillian Murphy's subconscious within Yusuf,Arthur,Eames dream...Mainly because an architect can formulate and control the designs there...Even though Murphy's character can create projections within the other persons dream

Spoiler

So you are saying that they orchestrated everything to be as difficult as possible. And Cillian is able to have projections in other peoples dreams, which is not at all what the movie stated.

Gotcha...the architects were complete morons who were suicidal in your opinion...which is why they created gunmen to hunt them down and populated the world with Cillian Murphy's allies...and spent the entire time trying to break into the subconscious of a guy, when they could have just entered his dream instead. Sounds like a stupid group of people.

How did the architects know about the pinwheel memory??? Oh...never mind...you are going to say that Cillian Murphy created it...in someone else's dream...when the movie flat out said otherwise.