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Chuck Dixon on “ambiguity is the new hip in comics”

random_havoc

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Here's the article:
http://dixonverse.net/blog/?p=38#respond

Here's a small excerpt (the bolding I added. I think it fairly obviously could have the title SPIDER-MAN OMD stamped across it).

Then there’s getting the character outright, pure-D wrong. This warping and wafting of long established heroes so that they can play a certain role in a story that can only work if you violate that character’s whole reason for being, as well as his coolness factor, are the mark of an ungifted mind.

Like the hero who throws aside all of his moral convictions to make a choice convenient for himself. The hero who gives in because his writer can’t think of a way out for him is common as well. Or, my personal bugaboo, the hero known for his steel trap mind suddenly displaying the intellectual capabilities of a teenager visiting Crystal Lake for the first time.
 
I liked this bit:

"Largely, the creators have eschewed plot for characterization. They want to explore what makes the character work and have that be what drives the stories. Try that with your iPhone and call me on a landline later to tell me how it all worked out.

In genre fiction, plot separates the men from the boys. Come up with an interesting, engaging story with rising action built into it and then set your character in motion within that plot. Only a dullard repeatedly extrapolates on a character’s personality and calls it a story. Only a dullard would enjoy that. Sure, you can get away with it once in a while and it’s cool to reward readers with some new revelation or reaction based on the antagonist’s core beliefs or conflicts. Those are moments that thrill longtime fans and add depth to the character’s world for casual readers. But these Tennessee Williams plays that go on for years and reach no cathartic resolution are tiresome; especially when presented in a medium and genre where we want to see the hero and his cast doing something."
 
"Now, rather than ending up in a drawer of discards, this kind of scorched earth approach is at the center of multi-year event comics."



Publishing crap like Secret Invasion or Civil War was the kind of thing that bankrupted Marvel in the 90s, too. While I agree with Dixon that something seriously wrong has happened to the storytelling process in comics, it's also become pretty apparent that a vast majority of today's comic readers are into that sort of thing. Which, I suppose, makes a vast majority of readers... dullards.
 
Damn. Chuck don't give a ****.

Dixon said:
In recent years, the imagination-challenged have looked to what’s wrong with the characters rather than what’s right. Driven to delight an aging core fanbase with stories that are more “mature” and shocking, these flaws have been exploited to turn what were once heroes into murderous thugs, morally- conflicted dawdlers or serial abusers; the flaws that once made them more believable as characters have been turned into personal failings. We all have flaws built into us. That’s why we respond to characters facing challenges from the same flaws we see (or don’t see) in ourselves. But faults are something you’re supposed to do something about. Heroes do something about their faults so they don’t become permanent personality traits. We look up to them because they have the strength of character to do what we often cannot. They are meant to inspire us and show us our better angels.

Pretty much. Anymore the formula for a modern comic is, take the plot to any old comic, rip it off wholesale, then when you get to the part where the hero overcomes his flaws to defeat the villain... instead of that, have him utterly **** up and fail!

While I agree with Dixon that something seriously wrong has happened to the storytelling process in comics, it's also become pretty apparent that a vast majority of today's comic readers are into that sort of thing.

Which is probably why today's "vast majority" of comics readers seems to be a tiny, ever-shrinking minority, the majority having long since lost all patience with this kind of nonsense.
 
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If the majority has lost patience, why was Civil War such a high selling miniseries? That's a story incredibly guilty of warping characters so they'll fit certain roles in the story. That very attitude is the very thing that kept the New Avengers on the run from the Mighty Avengers for months afterward. It's the very thing that kept "One More Day" and "Brand New Day" in the Top 10. It's the very thing that has so many people saying Cyclops is cooler than he's ever been.
 
Also thanks Random for pointing me along to Dixon's blog, this thing is awesome.

The entry on villains is a real treat.

If the majority has lost patience, why was Civil War such a high selling miniseries?

Because your definition of 'high selling' is something like 00.05% of the entire potential audience. Out of 300 million ****ing people, a comic sells to - on an insanely good day - 200k of them, and this is 'high selling'. I don't know what exactly you call that but "majority" ain't it. Sure a majority of comics fans, because the actual majority overwhelmingly aren't comics fans, because the majority of comics are ****ing stupid.
 
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If the majority has lost patience, why was Civil War such a high selling miniseries? That's a story incredibly guilty of warping characters so they'll fit certain roles in the story. That very attitude is the very thing that kept the New Avengers on the run from the Mighty Avengers for months afterward. It's the very thing that kept "One More Day" and "Brand New Day" in the Top 10. It's the very thing that has so many people saying Cyclops is cooler than he's ever been.

It's the dangerous cycle of gimmickry selling over quality. More and more comics jump on whatever bandwagon is selling well, at the risk of individual, original projects falling by the wayside. Just because Brand New Day has sold well doesn't make it the right thing for the character, anymore than saying reality TV is of superior quality to HBO drama because more people watch.
 
Because your definition of 'high selling' is something like 00.05% of the entire potential audience. Out of 300 million ****ing people, a comic sells to - on an insanely good day - 200k of them, and this is 'high selling'. I don't know what exactly you call that but "majority" ain't it. Sure a majority of comics fans, because the actual majority overwhelmingly aren't comics fans, because the majority of comics are ****ing stupid.
I said "readers" not "fans" or the population at large. My exact words were "majority of today's comic readers."


fifth, did I crap in your cornflakes or something?
 
"Now, rather than ending up in a drawer of discards, this kind of scorched earth approach is at the center of multi-year event comics."



Publishing crap like Secret Invasion or Civil War was the kind of thing that bankrupted Marvel in the 90s, too. While I agree with Dixon that something seriously wrong has happened to the storytelling process in comics, it's also become pretty apparent that a vast majority of today's comic readers are into that sort of thing. Which, I suppose, makes a vast majority of readers... dullards.

Oh boy, you and I couldn't agree more.
 
If the majority has lost patience, why was Civil War such a high selling miniseries? That's a story incredibly guilty of warping characters so they'll fit certain roles in the story. That very attitude is the very thing that kept the New Avengers on the run from the Mighty Avengers for months afterward. It's the very thing that kept "One More Day" and "Brand New Day" in the Top 10. It's the very thing that has so many people saying Cyclops is cooler than he's ever been.

I think you are starting to see people lose patience with the gimmicks.............I am anyway. I won't buy anything by Bendis or something that I don't like about a character I love. Though I'm missing Spidey, I just can't support the book any more becuase a hero making a deal with the devil isn't really a hero at all. I haven't bought an Avengers book in month becuase of Bendis, but I will as soon as Slott's gets on it. Right now I'm mostly buying Marvel's cosmic books as well as Moon Knight, Herc,Skaar and Thor. I dropped Hulk and all the "big" books a month ago. With the economy being bad, Marvel gave me the excuse I needed to save money. Not to mention those bastards are going up another dollar on things that I disagree with.........end rant. :)
 
I agree with pretty much the entire article, and I think it's hilarious and disappointing that the "Ultimate Punisher story" ended up being THE EXACT PLOT OF PUNISHER WAR ZONE. Which sucked. Really, really horrible.

However, what he's saying doesn't really fit every possible comic scenario. Heroes should NEVER give up and should ALWAYS try to improve upon their weaknesses? I disagree. That's true for only some characters and really, ANYTHING should be a possibility with some characters.

But I personally LOVED the last few major events in the MU and Final Crisis has rocked so far and I didn't see any characterization being thrown out the door for those.
 
This is the second piece I've read like this in a month, and while it's written well, it again makes the same mistake: stop trying to make rash generalizations about how comics should be.

I hate this notion that one day, in a land far away, comics and heroes were awesome and perfect and somehow we got away from that. Don't be ridiculous. Even back in the sixties there were good stories, bad stories, and stories done merely to generate controversy. This has not changed. Maybe you hated Civil War, but I'm betting there were just as many books being published at the time you did like. Each decade has classic stories and classic issues which will live on past them. People tend to view each decade with rose colored glasses as if we've been getting progressively worse, ignoring all the great changes that have been made.

Many writers and fanboys like to assume a perfect formula exists and that once a book is great it needs to stay there. Claremont once could do no wrong on X-Men, wrote the Dark Phoenix Saga and now he's the butt of every joke. To say heroes should be one way, or act one way is wrong.
 
This is the second piece I've read like this in a month, and while it's written well, it again makes the same mistake: stop trying to make rash generalizations about how comics should be.

I hate this notion that one day, in a land far away, comics and heroes were awesome and perfect and somehow we got away from that. Don't be ridiculous. Even back in the sixties there were good stories, bad stories, and stories done merely to generate controversy. This has not changed. Maybe you hated Civil War, but I'm betting there were just as many books being published at the time you did like. Each decade has classic stories and classic issues which will live on past them. People tend to view each decade with rose colored glasses as if we've been getting progressively worse, ignoring all the great changes that have been made.

Many writers and fanboys like to assume a perfect formula exists and that once a book is great it needs to stay there. Claremont once could do no wrong on X-Men, wrote the Dark Phoenix Saga and now he's the butt of every joke. To say heroes should be one way, or act one way is wrong.

The problem with Civil War is simpley, characters starting acting like *****, for no reason. It was this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment
 
I posted my way to make Civil War amazing when the series was still running. It involved at LEAST a year of build up. Not the 'errrr, yeahbutwha???" feeling of the real deal.
 
And that was one of the things Dixon covered. It's one thing to say "all comics should be like THIS," but it's something else altogether when otherwise good characters take the DNA of a dearly departed friend, and create a crazed clone that they try to pass off as the real thing.
 
Does anyone have his quote about some readers and WATCHMEN from a while back? That one was legendary.
 
This is the second piece I've read like this in a month, and while it's written well, it again makes the same mistake: stop trying to make rash generalizations about how comics should be.

I hate this notion that one day, in a land far away, comics and heroes were awesome and perfect and somehow we got away from that. Don't be ridiculous. Even back in the sixties there were good stories, bad stories, and stories done merely to generate controversy. This has not changed. Maybe you hated Civil War, but I'm betting there were just as many books being published at the time you did like. Each decade has classic stories and classic issues which will live on past them. People tend to view each decade with rose colored glasses as if we've been getting progressively worse, ignoring all the great changes that have been made.

Many writers and fanboys like to assume a perfect formula exists and that once a book is great it needs to stay there. Claremont once could do no wrong on X-Men, wrote the Dark Phoenix Saga and now he's the butt of every joke. To say heroes should be one way, or act one way is wrong.
I agree completely. That's exactly what bothered me when I was reading the blog. In fact, I think comics are getting better with time.

Sleeper by Brubaker for example. Was that about a hero that tried hard to better himself and never gave up? Hell no and thank goodness because it was one of the best comics I've ever read.

Of course, I have a feeling Dixon had problems with a few story arcs/creators/events/whatever and he made generalizations directed at those particular things.
 
This is the second piece I've read like this in a month, and while it's written well, it again makes the same mistake: stop trying to make rash generalizations about how comics should be.

I hate this notion that one day, in a land far away, comics and heroes were awesome and perfect and somehow we got away from that. Don't be ridiculous. Even back in the sixties there were good stories, bad stories, and stories done merely to generate controversy. This has not changed. Maybe you hated Civil War, but I'm betting there were just as many books being published at the time you did like. Each decade has classic stories and classic issues which will live on past them. People tend to view each decade with rose colored glasses as if we've been getting progressively worse, ignoring all the great changes that have been made.

Many writers and fanboys like to assume a perfect formula exists and that once a book is great it needs to stay there. Claremont once could do no wrong on X-Men, wrote the Dark Phoenix Saga and now he's the butt of every joke. To say heroes should be one way, or act one way is wrong.

I'm tired of writing lengthy rebuttals to your posts, so I'll just say this:
1) Straw-Man fallacy
2) I'll take the opinion of Chuck Dixon over yours.
 
Sleeper by Brubaker for example. Was that about a hero that tried hard to better himself and never gave up? Hell no and thank goodness because it was one of the best comics I've ever read.

Sleeper isn't Spider-Man though. That's pretty much what half the piece is about: mucking with certain essential characteristics of a character, either by changing them or blowing them up.

I found myself agreeing with a lot of Dixon's points, personally.
 
I said "readers" not "fans" or the population at large. My exact words were "majority of today's comic readers."

And my argument is that talking about the "majority of today's comic readers" is pointless when you're talking about a "majority" of a group which is itself a vanishingly tiny minority.

Yes a "majority of today's comic readers" want dreck like Civil War, because all the people who might want things that aren't dreck like Civil War aren't comics readers, because comics have driven off the entirety of their audience that being a comics reader means having to put up with dreck like Civil War.

fifth, did I crap in your cornflakes or something?

Did I give the impression of being pissed at you? It wasn't my intention.
 

Chuck Dixon said:
At the risk of breaking some fragile fanboy hearts, I’ll lift the curtain a bit here on this subject.

Making iconic comic book characters more “realistic” or “grimmer” or “grittier” is most often the product of a bankrupt imagination rather than the opposite. These icons exist within a framework and have flaws built into their make-up given to them by their original creators.

They have supporting casts with established relationships and locations, situations and attitudes durable enough to allow them to last decades. These frameworks are sturdy, tested and malleable. Batman, over his lifetime, has been a grim avenger, dogged detective, silly, even sillier, a detective once again and a grim avenger to come full circle over 70+ years and always remained the Batman that the larger pop culture consumer can recognize. Hundreds of comic creators have worked on him and labored within that framework to work wonders yet left him as they found him for future creators to work on and future audiences to enjoy.

In recent years, the imagination-challenged have looked to what’s wrong with the characters rather than what’s right. Driven to delight an aging core fanbase with stories that are more “mature” and shocking, these flaws have been exploited to turn what were once heroes into murderous thugs, morally- conflicted dawdlers or serial abusers; the flaws that once made them more believable as characters have been turned into personal failings. We all have flaws built into us. That’s why we respond to characters facing challenges from the same flaws we see (or don’t see) in ourselves. But faults are something you’re supposed to do something about. Heroes do something about their faults so they don’t become permanent personality traits. We look up to them because they have the strength of character to do what we often cannot. They are meant to inspire us and show us our better angels.

This framework is too constricting for creators who look to improve their own standing over that of the characters they’re writing; the editor who wants to do a victory lap around the weekly editorial meeting; the writer who craves the attention of Wizard or some fan-driven website. They want credit for what they think of as breaking formula when all they’re doing is showing their failure to grasp the core appeal of the characters they’re working with. There’s a cynical disregard for what makes these icons work but it only serves to mask their own inabilities to create within guidelines and restrictions.

When your favorite, beloved character is revealed to be a deviant basketcase or found dead in an alley after being sexually violated it’s more a case of unbridled hubris rather than unbridled imagination. They’ve thrown out the rulebook, the characterization and decades of continuity and shrug when people object. It’s “what the audience demands.” That’s true if your audience is a steadily-shrinking one populated by increasingly cynical fans who fancy themselves as critics. Lately editors, publishers and/or creators have simply thrown in the creative towel with the lame “it’s all been done before.” Really? And why is this a problem now when it wasn’t over the prior fifty years?

Largely, the creators have eschewed plot for characterization. They want to explore what makes the character work and have that be what drives the stories. Try that with your iPhone and call me on a landline later to tell me how it all worked out.

In genre fiction, plot separates the men from the boys. Come up with an interesting, engaging story with rising action built into it and then set your character in motion within that plot. Only a dullard repeatedly extrapolates on a character’s personality and calls it a story. Only a dullard would enjoy that. Sure, you can get away with it once in a while and it’s cool to reward readers with some new revelation or reaction based on the antagonist’s core beliefs or conflicts. Those are moments that thrill longtime fans and add depth to the character’s world for casual readers. But these Tennessee Williams plays that go on for years and reach no cathartic resolution are tiresome; especially when presented in a medium and genre where we want to see the hero and his cast doing something.

Then there’s getting the character outright, pure-D wrong. This warping and wafting of long established heroes so that they can play a certain role in a story that can only work if you violate that character’s whole reason for being, as well as his coolness factor, are the mark of an ungifted mind.

Like the hero who throws aside all of his moral convictions to make a choice convenient for himself. The hero who gives in because his writer can’t think of a way out for him is common as well. Or, my personal bugaboo, the hero known for his steel trap mind suddenly displaying the intellectual capabilities of a teenager visiting Crystal Lake for the first time.

So many of these talents believe that by breaking the established and familiar framework of the protagonist they’re working on they’ve written the ultimate story of that character. What they may or may not fail to understand is that “ultimate” means “final”. Perhaps they think it means “most awesome”. I think many of them believe that their daunting imaginations have come up with the Last Word on the character.

Don Daley, my old editor on the Punisher back in the DeFalco days at Marvel, had a drawer full of scripts labeled “The Ultimate Punisher Story.” He let me read a few of them one time. There were scripts by wannabe and amateurs and a surprising number of top talents. They were of varying degrees of competence and professionalism. The one thing they had in common was that they were all the same story. In each story the Punisher accidentally kills an innocent. A child. A nun. A cop. Frank Castle then quits being the Punisher and becomes a priest. In every story. Every damned one. In some he quits being the Punisher forever and in others he’s dragged back into the vigilante game for some compelling reason. The other element that these scripts shared other than inciting incident, plot and resolution was that they got the core character of Frank Castle so entirely wrong that it was breath-taking. Unable to come up with a story for the Punisher, they decided to break the franchise and glue it back together in a new form they could understand.

Now, rather than ending up in a drawer of discards, this kind of scorched earth approach is at the center of multi-year event comics.

Ambiguity is the new hip in comics.

That is an excellent article by Chuck Dixon.

The irony of course is he uses several unpublished "final" Punisher stories as an example, and those stories, according to his summary, are almost exactly what the script for PUNISHER WAR ZONE (the 3rd Punisher film that tanked last year) ended up being (Punisher accidentally shoots an undercover cop, seeks to quit, comes back into the game to save the cop's daughter/wife), and it was "so bad it's good" style rubbish.
 
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Here's the article:
http://dixonverse.net/blog/?p=38#respond

Here's a small excerpt (the bolding I added. I think it fairly obviously could have the title SPIDER-MAN OMD stamped across it).

Then there’s getting the character outright, pure-D wrong. This warping and wafting of long established heroes so that they can play a certain role in a story that can only work if you violate that character’s whole reason for being, as well as his coolness factor, are the mark of an ungifted mind.

Like the hero who throws aside all of his moral convictions to make a choice convenient for himself. The hero who gives in because his writer can’t think of a way out for him is common as well. Or, my personal bugaboo, the hero known for his steel trap mind suddenly displaying the intellectual capabilities of a teenager visiting Crystal Lake for the first time.

I :heart: Dixon
 

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