Comic Books You Consider Over-Rated...

[Drz]

Well this isn't going anywhere. >: ( I mean is it just that you don't like how he writes jerk characters? Or is this how his heroes are white but the enemies are always black, italian or anything thats non-american-white? I've seen these talks before and i just wanna know what is it that makes you dislike his writing since you need to swear to say it. :|

 

[fifthfiend]

since you need to swear to say it. :|

Dang Drz you are really quickly throwing away the cred you earned from dropping that abomination of a vowel from your name. You can't seriously be crying this hard about me using the word ******* in my answer to your question about why Millar is an *******.

I mean please tell me that this is just you ****ing around or trolling or something, and that you don't expect me to believe you're this ******** over language that you yourself used in the post I responded to.

 

[Drz]

No i just don't see why exactly you dislike Millar. I'm not ******** over the language that much, it's just that all the swearing makes me wonder why exactly dislike him. I mean i could call you things, but that wouldn't say why i dislike you or anything. All i'm asking is to know why you dislike his writing so much.

 

[fifthfiend]

No i just don't see why exactly you dislike Millar. I'm not ******** over the language that much, it's just that all the swearing makes me wonder why exactly dislike him. I mean i could call you things, but that wouldn't say why i dislike you or anything. All i'm asking is to know why you dislike his writing so much.

Okay wow, yeah, trolling.

 

[Drz]

No really, tell me why you dislike his writing. You mentioned Kick-Ass so what was wrong about Kick-Ass in your opinion? Thats all i want to know... In details. Not like "everything!!"

 

[fifthfiend]

eyeroll.gif

So moving on from Drz's bout of trollicious illiteracy, you know what comic I think was pretty overrated, was Y the Last Man.

Like I dunno it started out okay but never really went anywhere and then the explanation for why all the dudes died was kind of ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Especially when they hinted at like actually good explanations for it, and then it got to the actual explanation and it was just so much dumber than any other option could have been.

Also Ex Machina always seemed kind of ridiculous in that its politics are so "I take HALF of this view and HALF of this view and combine them, making me CENTRISTLY CENTERISTICAL!" Also because apparently you can be the mayor of New York City and apparently never have to deal with like, development, poverty, unions or mob crime? But yeah I dunno I never really got anything out of it.

 

[Drz]

So you honestly can't tell whats wrong with the writing? Why bother crying about it in the first place then?

 

[Max J Power]

eyeroll.gif

So moving on from Drz's bout of trollicious illiteracy, you know what comic I think was pretty overrated, was Y the Last Man.

Like I dunno it started out okay but never really went anywhere and then the explanation for why all the dudes died was kind of ehhhhhhhhhhhh. Especially when they hinted at like actually good explanations for it, and then it got to the actual explanation and it was just so much dumber than any other option could have been.

Also Ex Machina always seemed kind of ridiculous in that its politics are so "I take HALF of this view and HALF of this view and combine them, making me CENTRISTLY CENTERISTICAL!" Also because apparently you can be the mayor of New York City and apparently never have to deal with like, development, poverty, unions or mob crime? But yeah I dunno I never really got anything out of it.

Even though I like Ex Machina a lot, I have to agree with you on that point. I like that Vaughan didn't want to make the superhero mayor belong to one particular party, but sometimes his views are pretty unrealistic.

 

[The ?ion]

1) Sorry Mystirious. I should not have assumed that you are a liberal. By which I mean far leaning liberal. I am pretty much too complex to label myself. Some things I am liberal about and other thins I am ardently conservative on. It should not have escaped me that others could be the same way. Also, did not mean to assume you were a dude. But that does violate rule 30 of the internet. I guess we'll have to make an exception for you though.

2) fifthfiend, you earned a modicum of my respect for so freely exercising so much sarcasm, after I dinged you about being sarcastic. But it is better that you be yourself than to become overly apologetic or passive aggressive.

3) I spoke to a guy in my grad-class about Mark Millar. He said that he is very nice in person. Sadly, that doesn't explain why the man seems to love portraying minorities as inept, thuggish and uncouth (unless of course they are being sexually exploited e.g. Fox). I pretty much flew off at the mouth when the guy told me he liked Wanted. He then tried to suggest Kick-Ass. I was actually excited about trying to pick up that graphic, because the movie trailers have all been amazing.

I never picked up Kick-Ass back when it had its original run, but I felt compelled to get it now. That was until this guy showed me his copy of the graphic. Every other page has some Black guy getting a severe beating, or being stabbed in the head. I couldn't find an Anglo thug on any pages (granted I was skimming). If Millar doesn't hate minorities (especially Blacks), then he sure has me fooled. Millar did have Thor put a bolt in Bill Foster's chest for no good reason. So I wouldn't doubt it. I seriously think he got picked on by minorities as a child. This is how he gets his revenge. By having minorities get brutalized in the pages of any book he writes.

 

[Drz]

I never picked up Kick-Ass back when it had its original run, but I felt compelled to get it now. That was until this guy showed me his copy of the graphic. Every other page has some Black guy getting a severe beating, or being stabbed in the head. I couldn't find an Anglo thug on any pages (granted I was skimming). If Millar doesn't hate minorities (especially Blacks), then he sure has me fooled. Millar did have Thor put a bolt in Bill Foster's chest for no good reason. So I wouldn't doubt it. I seriously think he got picked on by minorities as a child. This is how he gets his revenge. By having minorities get brutalized in the pages of any book he writes.

In his Authority run the enemies we're White, in Ultimates 1 they we're Aliens, Ultimate X-Men had the good ol' Mutants and American Goverment, Ultimates 2 had Hank Pym as the american "villain" tho him being a villain can be argued back and forth, but in the end Pym is the ultimate loser in Ultimate universe.

Wanted had alot of villains from different backgrounds, but then we get to Kick-Ass which has this hilarious conspiracy theory. Kick-Ass is a white american with blue eyes and blond hair, and the enemies in the movie are mostly Italians and African Americans more or less with some white thugs here and there... Unless they we're Italians aswell.

I doubt this is him getting any revenge, but this isn't the first time i see this theory rising. Oh and Red Skull in Ultimate Universe is an American Neo-Nazi.

 

[The ?ion]

It may even just be a problem with foreign people period. After all, Millar is Scottish. He tends to have poor representations of foreigners. Minorities just stand out in my mind, because I am one. But as I noted, he poorly represents a lot of people

-He joked about Scarlet Witch being incestuous and loving robots, because she is Eastern European (Romani a.k.a Gypsy).

- "Surrender? Do You Think This A on my Head Stands for France." Nuff said there.

-Wesley (from Wanted) told an overtly racist joke about Mexicans, who at the time, had not been provoking him. Additionally, when they had been provoking him, it was over his fashion, not his race. So why Wesley has to respond with racism, is unknown.

-Most of the thugs in Kick Ass are Puerto Rican and Black

It isn't that there is a problem with making subtle humor about other cultures, or even showing other cultures in a general negative light. After all, if people can be shown positively (a.k.a productive members of society) there is no reason why they can't be shown as villains and undesirable drains on society.

The problem with Millar, is that he always seems to have some negative spin on foreign (see: not Scottish) or minority people. Nietzsche once said that everything is rhetorical. I have no doubt that Millar's choices are rhetorical decisions and not mere coincidence. He is intentionally doing this. The question is, what are the motives behind his rhetoric? People will likely disagree, but I feel that Millar must have experienced some adolescent trauma that has resulted in him being so socially/politically vulgar in his works.

 

[Drz]

Whats wrong about Millar joking about the ultimatimized Witch that he created? It wasn't until Loeb who came along until she actually became a robot loving incest. Yeah yeah we can all talk about Captain America hating the french, but so what? It's the Ultimized Captain America and he has his own reasons and believes why he doesn't like the french, wheres 616-captain america has his reasons to have faith and trust the french.

Wesley is a downright villain rapist smug, why wouldn't he be racist? Are you telling me that someone like the Joker isn't racist or something? Why should a villain CARE for ethics? I mean both Wesley and Ultimate Red Skull are americans, yet they're both evil smugs... Why is it so wrong that a fictional evil guy is a racist? Is this a taboo of some sort of all the sudden? Or an excuse to bash Millar? =O

I don't see the big thing about Kick-Ass, but if it makes you feel more comfortable the movie seems to have more white thugs... Unless they are italian. I'd be agreeing on this theory if the 2nd and 3rd book won't have any White-American villains.

Now why don't we talk about the good minority characters? We already covered Scarlet Witch, but we got Nick Fury the ultimate badass! Miss Chang, War Machine, Upcoming new Hulk & Blade the vampire killer. We got the Russian Red Wasp who might become more of a good guy thruouth the story, not entirely sure so perhaps not best to mention her lol.

 

[Mystirious]

I doubt this is him getting any revenge, but this isn't the first time i see this theory rising. Oh and Red Skull in Ultimate Universe is an American Neo-Nazi.

I think with the Red Skull it's more that he just wants to kill everyone. Race, sexuality, gender, religion...I don't think he cares about any of that. He just likes to kill

As Mr Pennyworth would say: Some men just want to watch the world burn

1) Sorry Mystirious. I should not have assumed that you are a liberal. By which I mean far leaning liberal. I am pretty much too complex to label myself. Some things I am liberal about and other thins I am ardently conservative on. It should not have escaped me that others could be the same way. Also, did not mean to assume you were a dude. But that does violate rule 30 of the internet. I guess we'll have to make an exception for you though.

No need to apologise, you didn't offend me. I just wanted to set the record straight on a couple of minor points

The problem with Millar, is that he always seems to have some negative spin on foreign (see: not Scottish) or minority people. Nietzsche once said that everything is rhetorical. I have no doubt that Millar's choices are rhetorical decisions and not mere coincidence. He is intentionally doing this. The question is, what are the motives behind his rhetoric? People will likely disagree, but I feel that Millar must have experienced some adolescent trauma that has resulted in him being so socially/politically vulgar in his works.

I don't know about always, I can think of a few minority characters he's written who have been heroic. Well, as heroic as anyone written by Millar ever is.

But I can see what you mean. I don't believe it's intetional on Millar's part but it does carry a lot of unfortunate implications

 

[The ?ion]

Do I think Joker's racist? Not at all. He isn't even a misanthrope like most of the horrible characters that Millar writes. In fact, in most interpretations, Joker has really solid motivation to do what he does (and we aren't just talking about Killing Joke). Joker is out to prove that anyone could be as messed up as he is, and he lives to promote chaos to achieve that goal. On the other hand, Wesley from Wanted was vile for no real reason. Wesley is evil only because he can be, not because he has a real motivation. That is not only unrealistic (even a Neo Nazi has a ton of rhetorical reasons and ideology that explains their position), but it is a poor rhetorical strategy for fiction writing.

As for other minority characters, honestly, most of them are pretty lame too. Warpath and Thunderbird wore feathers in their hair. The one Muslim in X-Men, has the power to turn into SAND. Luke Cage is still an unintelligent ex-convict. Storm is pretty nice, but even then, she has long white hair and blue eyes, despite being Kenyan/African American. I know they explained it as being specific to her tribe, but what is so wrong about allowing her to maintain a true African look? I could really go on. Marvel has some of the worst minority characters in this industry. DC, partially by default and partially because they just try harder, has the better minority representation. Far less stereotypical and far less pity characters (e.g., make a character that makes up for the dozens of stereotypes running around .

 

[Mystirious]

As for other minority characters, honestly, most of them are pretty lame too. Warpath and Thunderbird wore feathers in their hair. The one Muslim in X-Men, has the power to turn into SAND. Luke Cage is still an unintelligent ex-convict. Storm is pretty nice, but even then, she has long white hair and blue eyes, despite being Kenyan/African American. I know they explained it as being specific to her tribe, but what is so wrong about allowing her to maintain a true African look? I could really go on. Marvel has some of the worst minority characters in this industry. DC, partially by default and partially because they just try harder, has the better minority representation. Far less stereotypical and far less pity characters (e.g., make a character that makes up for the dozens of stereotypes running around .

Let's not forget that Marvel also seem to believe that all Japanese people are obsessed with honour and duty. Presumably because they believe the entire country is made up of Samurai.

Although DC is not lily white when it comes to creating minority characters either. They did after all create a mixed race hero that they then proceeded to name Mongrel.

 

[Drz]

Do I think Joker's racist? Not at all. He isn't even a misanthrope like most of the horrible characters that Millar writes. In fact, in most interpretations, Joker has really solid motivation to do what he does (and we aren't just talking about Killing Joke). Joker is out to prove that anyone could be as messed up as he is, and he lives to promote chaos to achieve that goal. On the other hand, Wesley from Wanted was vile for no real reason. Wesley is evil only because he can be, not because he has a real motivation. That is not only unrealistic (even a Neo Nazi has a ton of rhetorical reasons and ideology that explains their position), but it is a poor rhetorical strategy for fiction writing.

Depends on the writer regarding Joker. Paul Dini's Joker is a mob boss big bully who wants to rule his playground. Azzarello's Joker wants to rule Gotham. Morrison's Joker wants to do all kinds of things from becoming the Clown at Midnight to whatnot whatnot.

Wesley indeed became evil because he COULD, Because he could do so withouth regrets. He realized he could be this nasty rapist scumbag of the earth because noone would stop him. He was tired of the lifestyle and just decided to become the nastiest smug and became one greedy person in the end. Now we can all debate could a human person really do this or not, but i'm pretty sure somewhere out there, some people wish to be like Wesley.

 

[fifthfiend]

I never picked up Kick-Ass back when it had its original run, but I felt compelled to get it now. That was until this guy showed me his copy of the graphic. Every other page has some Black guy getting a severe beating, or being stabbed in the head. I couldn't find an Anglo thug on any pages (granted I was skimming). If Millar doesn't hate minorities (especially Blacks), then he sure has me fooled. Millar did have Thor put a bolt in Bill Foster's chest for no good reason. So I wouldn't doubt it. I seriously think he got picked on by minorities as a child. This is how he gets his revenge. By having minorities get brutalized in the pages of any book he writes.

For me the really off-putting thing isn't so much the violence as the random WTF references he'll make. Like in Wanted where Fox is like "Sure go back to working for your AFRICAN AMERICAN boss." Or at the end of Kick Ass where he was like "my Dad started ****ing a BLACK WOMAN".

It's kind of like when people say **** about like "oh you know those people and their FRIED CHICKEN and WATERMELON". You know you're dealing with a real ****head when they'll say something that doesn't even make any actual ****ing sense but still manages to sound completely racist as hell.

 

[The ?ion]

Exactly. The logic behind it is pretty obvious. Wesley's boss is a negative person. Down right awful. We get that impression right from jump. However, Wesley should hate his boss for her character. Instead, saying "African American Boss" becomes a euphemism for her negative qualities. I am always weary of people that use "race" to describe people in a context where it doesn't matter. It would be like watching somebody go to a Laker's game, only to witness them saying something like, "look at how that African American shoots the ball through the hoop." It really does invoke that "huh???" kind of feeling.

 

[Mystirious]

Exactly. The logic behind it is pretty obvious. Wesley's boss is a negative person. Down right awful. We get that impression right from jump. However, Wesley should hate his boss for her character. Instead, saying "African American Boss" becomes a euphemism for her negative qualities. I am always weary of people that use "race" to describe people in a context where it doesn't matter. It would be like watching somebody go to a Laker's game, only to witness them saying something like, "look at how that African American shoots the ball through the hoop." It really does invoke that "huh???" kind of feeling.

I did find myself moved to laughter by that in Wanted, not out of agreement with the statements made by Fox and others, but at how poorly worded it seemed. If someone is a jerk they are a jerk. But I have never heard anyone describe a rather *****y woman (As Wesley's boss was) as being "So *****y she's african american!"

So Fox using "African american" as some kind of short hand for Wesley's boss being a jerk didn't only seem racist, it wasn't even coherent racism

As to Millar himself, I really have no idea whether he's racist. And I try not to speculate on such things personally. But a lot of his work has got those connotations

 

[Manic]

I definitely got the impression that Wesley from Wanted was supposed to be racist, but I was never sure if that was a freudian slip in Millar's writing, or if he had intentionally created a racist character. I mean, Wesley is a sociopathic serial killer and overall supervillain; I think I can handle such an unlikeable protagonist also being racist.

 

[Drz]

Well in the newest Millar comic, Nemesis #1 we got this:

Spoiler

Nemesis assistants we're all Japanese... Since they we're in Tokyo and if i'm right Nemesis does recruit the local services to his cause. In Washington we got white thugs, but one is either Latino/Mexican or just tanned, but the 3 other thugs we're pure white guys.

Oh and the President was White, which you can consider either Marvel not showing Obama in a bad light or go with the racist conspiracy theory.

 

[batman_gr]

Ronin is one I didn't like. The whole idea was quite there from the beginning and Miller once again was bored with drawing halfway through the book. I don't understand why it's so over hyped and why it has to be adapted to a movie.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Well in the newest Millar comic, Nemesis #1 we got this:

Spoiler

Nemesis assistants we're all Japanese... Since they we're in Tokyo and if i'm right Nemesis does recruit the local services to his cause. In Washington we got white thugs, but one is either Latino/Mexican or just tanned, but the 3 other thugs we're pure white guys.

Oh and the President was White, which you can consider either Marvel not showing Obama in a bad light or go with the racist conspiracy theory.

Well...

Spoiler

It could also be because Marvel just didn't want to show Obama taken hostage/nearly killed

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Skrull Invasion (except Black Panther)
World War Hulk
Siege
Frank Miller's 300
X-Force

 

[The Geek Vault]

Most stuff Bendis writes I consider over rated.