Comics Contributions to the Spider-Man Mythos..

[November Rain]

dragon, could you give an example of a few marvel characters that have evolved because a lot of them seem pretty static by your definition.

like wolverine now is pretty much like he's always been, same with cyclops, rogue, hulk, captain america etc

 

[Red]

Well you have a point on Venom. He was created for probably a recurring 3 storyline character. I think his reasons were lame but the idea of someone who saw himself as the hero with Spider-Man's powers and knew Parker's identity but didn't reveal it or hurt loved ones but merely wanted to kill Spider-Man and was UNSTOPPABLE.

Venom never saw himself as a hero, until Carnage arrived. Before that he killed a hell lot of people.

 

[shinlyle]

Okay, I feel I need to speak my mind, now.

Here's my list of contributors:

Gerry Conway. The Death of Gwen Stacy and the Green Goblin was a great story. I believe it was also Conway who introduces the Jackal and the Punisher. Worthy contributions, to say the least.

Roger Stern. He contributed one of the single greatest runs in the title's history. Hobgoblin was such a deep character....and the mystery that went along with him was so well-played.

David Michelinie. He gave us Venom, who may have one of the coolest concepts ever, even if the lack of depth and the poor execution hurt it. Venom could rule if someone would take the kid-gloves off and just finally come out and make Eddie an evil bastard whose motivations have been lost after the years of killing....and now, he has developed a taste for it. Kind of like Carnage, but to a lesser extent, and his sole purpose should be the tormenting of Spider-Man...not just the killing of him. UGh. Also, Michelinie gave us the marriage, which has lasted for almost 20 years. That's a milestone, even if Joe Q/ hates it....hell, it makes it even better BECAUSE Joe Q hates it!

Kurt Busiek. Man....Untold Tales of Spider-Man is the one gleaming gem in the pile of crap that was the 90's. Every issue had the same excitement and the same energy that the old tales from the 60's used to. It was phenomenol.

Defalco, baby.... This man gave us Spider-Girl and kept it going. Mayday is the single best thing to come out of the Spider-verse in the past 10 years. There are new villians, new heroes, old villians and old heroes, and an actual supporting cast that still exists outside of May's life as Spider-Girl. My only regret about this book is that I wasn't turned onto it until near the end....but at least it's coming back!!

That's really about it. In my heart, I'd love to include Paul Jenkins on that list, but after Marvel relaunched Spectacular and had Jenkins writing for the trades, the book lost that overwhelming personal tone that it had under the moniker of Peter Parker: Spider-Man.

Those are my thoughts. Honestly, all these contributions are great, but they still pale in comparison to Stan's run. Then again, look at what he did...!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Okay, I feel I need to speak my mind, now.

Here's my list of contributors:

Gerry Conway. The Death of Gwen Stacy and the Green Goblin was a great story. I believe it was also Conway who introduces the Jackal and the Punisher. Worthy contributions, to say the least.

Roger Stern. He contributed one of the single greatest runs in the title's history. Hobgoblin was such a deep character....and the mystery that went along with him was so well-played.

David Michelinie. He gave us Venom, who may have one of the coolest concepts ever, even if the lack of depth and the poor execution hurt it. Venom could rule if someone would take the kid-gloves off and just finally come out and make Eddie an evil bastard whose motivations have been lost after the years of killing....and now, he has developed a taste for it. Kind of like Carnage, but to a lesser extent, and his sole purpose should be the tormenting of Spider-Man...not just the killing of him. UGh. Also, Michelinie gave us the marriage, which has lasted for almost 20 years. That's a milestone, even if Joe Q/ hates it....hell, it makes it even better BECAUSE Joe Q hates it!

Kurt Busiek. Man....Untold Tales of Spider-Man is the one gleaming gem in the pile of crap that was the 90's. Every issue had the same excitement and the same energy that the old tales from the 60's used to. It was phenomenol.

Defalco, baby.... This man gave us Spider-Girl and kept it going. Mayday is the single best thing to come out of the Spider-verse in the past 10 years. There are new villians, new heroes, old villians and old heroes, and an actual supporting cast that still exists outside of May's life as Spider-Girl. My only regret about this book is that I wasn't turned onto it until near the end....but at least it's coming back!!

That's really about it. In my heart, I'd love to include Paul Jenkins on that list, but after Marvel relaunched Spectacular and had Jenkins writing for the trades, the book lost that overwhelming personal tone that it had under the moniker of Peter Parker: Spider-Man.

Those are my thoughts. Honestly, all these contributions are great, but they still pale in comparison to Stan's run. Then again, look at what he did...!

I agree with all that...pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject.

Im also tempted to add ThemanofBat's suggestion of Marv Wolfman as well, by virtue of ASM #200 alone, which sort of brought the whole "Burglar" story full cirle.

But i think we all agree That Stan & Steve set the Spider-Man bar so high no other creators will ever be able to match what they did with the character.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I do agree that Peter should've been more cautious going into a relationship with MJ (though they did wait over a year and half our time which would be when a real person started to maybe try and start getting in the game again) and he was hesitant 'til about #150 if he loved her but I do agree he should have been mroe bitter to that point (he was bitter for what 5, 6, 7 issues?) and upset about moving onw ith MJ, but let's remember that this was still the era directly after Lee and the point was to keep the stories directly happy for the core audience (children). Conaway definetly took things grimmer than Lee ever did but never forgot this. And I think it is a shame it wasn't handelled in a more mature fashion but for the time it was handelled quite well, so well that it is the pivotal point of the Spider-Man comics that most writers keep going back to (whether losing Gwen or getting with a deeper MJ).

And as I said this saw the time when Flash became a good friend and Harry started his dark descent. Both were heavily developed since then (screw Peter David and JMS for what they did to Flash) and Harry arguably has had the most change and growth (or downfall for that matter) of all the Spidey characters until his inevitable conclusion.

And again even if you do not like how the marriage has been written, would marriage not signify a huge step forward in the path of life for Peter Parker then?

 

[shinlyle]

I agree with all that...pretty much sums up my thinking on the subject.

Im also tempted to add ThemanofBat's suggestion of Marv Wolfman as well, by virtue of ASM #200 alone, which sort of brought the whole "Burglar" story full cirle.

But i think we all agree That Stan & Steve set the Spider-Man bar so high no other creators will ever be able to match what they did with the character.

True....ASM#200 is a classic...and still the best centenniel issue of ASM we've ever had!

 

[Chris Wallace]

im not sure what writer it was but whoever came up with "revelations" to end the clone saga has surely added something. Green Goblin is now considered almost undoubtedly the greatest SM villain and todd mcfarlane's venom too. i think you've just been overly harsh.
Spider-Man as one of earth's mightiest heroes has to be something that has added to his character. Its the greatest show of him being more than just street level. There has to be and is definitely more..

That would be Howard Mackie. Probably the last good thing he did.

 

[Themanofbat]

True....ASM#200 is a classic...and still the best centenniel issue of ASM we've ever had!

It's a proven fact that it is... t: t: t:

Spider-Man Elimination Game Round 27 (Best Spidey Centennial Issue)

 

[shinlyle]

It's a proven fact that it is... t: t: t:

Spider-Man Elimination Game Round 27 (Best Spidey Centennial Issue)

Damn straight!!!

 

[Themanofbat]

 

[stillanerd]

I think some of you might be missing Dragon's overall point. Take a closer look at his statements:

Sure, there have been some excellent stories/arcs. But there have been no characters, or development of existing characters that have been an actual evolutionary contribution to the mythos.

He's still too much like the kid he was in High School and College.

When Stan developed Spider-Man, he didn't simply create events. He created lasting change and as I mentioned evolutionary elements for Peter.

In other words, he's talking about CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, where, because of the events he was involved with, Spider-Man, as a character, changed either in terms of his attitude, outlook on life, how he dealt with others, or just becoming more mature, not so much physiologically, but mentally and emotionally.

For example, anyone remember the end of the Spider-Man animated series from the 1990s? Spider-Man tells Stan Lee that, despite everything that has happened to him, he still feels pretty good about himself and who he's become, to which Stan responds "Wow! That doesn't sound like the Spider-Man I've been writing about all these years," which was exactly the point. It showed that Spider-Man DEVELOPED as a human being. Likewise, during the first issues of Amazing Spider-Man, including his origin in Amazing Fantasy #15, Peter started out as a shy, bookish teenager who, while brillant and friendly, was never appreciated by people his own age; in fact, he quite resented them for always giving him the brush off. After getting his powers, he decides to capitalize on them by going into show business where he finds acceptance. With the exception of his Aunt and Uncle, Peter basically only cares about himself, saying that "the world can go hang for all I care," which comes to a head when he lets the burglar escape. But then, after his uncle is killed and Spidey learns that it was committed by the same burglar, he realizes it the most painful way possible that he should have used his powers to help others rather than for personal gain. At first, he tries this by STILL BEING AN ENTERTAINER to raise money for his recently widowed Aunt May; but when J. Jonah Jameson blasts him in the Bugle and Spidey can't get anymore gigs or cash his checks, it's then he tries to become a superhero--in order to get more entertainment gigs so he can get more money in order to help Aunt May. But when he's still blasted by Jameson after rescuing J.J.J.'s own son, and, when trying to join the Fantastic Four, realizes there's no profit in being a superhero, that he learns that the life of a hero doesn't necessarily mean adulation. Likewise, by battling various criminals and supervillains, learning how to fight, utilize his powers and equipment, and throw out snappy one liners, he grows in confidence as Peter Parker, is more outgoing, is able to stand up to guys like Flash and Jameson, ask girls like Betty Brant, Liz Allen, and Gwen Stacy out on a dates, and becomes more confident in himself. His encounters with supervillains make him understand that he can't always rely on his powers to save him or that he should throw in the towel when he's defeated. By the time "Spider-Man No More" happened, Peter was willing to give up the life of a superhero to regain some scene of normalcy in his life, but soon learned the the value of personal sacrifice for the sake of others. As he was a teenager becoming a young adult, graduating high school and going to college, he was also learning what it meant to be a man and LEARNED from his experiences.

But then, as Spider-Man became more popular, it seemed that there was a tendency for writers not have Spider-Man EMOTIONALLY grow up, evne though, ironically, they kept having him PHYSICALLY grow up. Even his powers developed more than he did emotionally, especially in the last couple of years. Sure, when Gwen Stacy died, he became darker until Mary Jane helped him to cope with his loss, but did he worry that his getting involved with another woman might lead to her suffering the same fate as Gwen? Not really. Sure he confronted the burglar years later and realized revenge wasn't the answer, but did he stop blaming himself for his Uncle's death? Not really. Sure his relationship with the Black Cat made him realize that his trust in people could be exploited, but did he learn to become a little more suspicious of others who flatter him...like Iron Man for instance? Not really. Sure his experiences with mystical spider totems (as well as other cosmic and supernatural enities) make him realize there is more "out there" than he may have realized, but has this made him see that there are things that science can't explain or that it's not always as reliable as he might think? Not really. He keeps repeating the same mistakes and having to relearn the same lessons.

Even though he's "aging"--and even though there are those who think that's a mistake in itself, especially with regards to his getting married and the possibility of him having kids--he's not "growing" as a character, perhaps because there is a certain "template," a particular characterization of Spider-Man that the comic book creators want readers to identify with, even though, in most fiction, characters are not emotionally static and learn from past experience. And whatever attempts have been made by writers like Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman, and Roger Stern to make developments in his character, there are other writers who retcon these developments away and end up having Spider-Man regress emotionally, which is why we get things like The Clone Saga, [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] or Spider-Man Unmasked where he seemingly acts out of character to conform with the demands of the story so that he can learn "valuable life lessons" that he has already learned time and time again. But, I guess that's the price one pays when dealing with a serial character in a non-finite series.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Y'know, one thing I keep thinking about is his marriage. You would think that having him marry a supermodel would hurt his whole "everyman" image. But it didn't. The only thing that really changed was that he now had someone to share in his struggles, joys & pains. He still had financial woes & everything else, but when he went home to lick his wounds, someone was there.
Then again, that's any marriage. At least it's mine. My wife makes my good days even better & my bad days easier to take.

 

[Themanofbat]

Even though he's "aging"--and even though there are those who think that's a mistake in itself, especially with regards to his getting married and the possibility of him having kids--he's not "growing" as a character, perhaps because there is a certain "template," a particular characterization of Spider-Man that the comic book creators want readers to identify with, even though, in most fiction, characters are not emotionally static and learn from past experience. And whatever attempts have been made by writers like Gerry Conway, Marv Wolfman, and Roger Stern to make developments in his character, there are other writers who retcon these developments away and end up having Spider-Man regress emotionally, which is why we get things like The Clone Saga,

Spoiler

Sins Past

or Spider-Man Unmasked where he seemingly acts out of character to conform with the demands of the story so that he can learn "valuable life lessons" that he has already learned time and time again. But, I guess that's the price one pays when dealing with a serial character in a non-finite series.

While perhaps no writer has ever really attributed to a character development with Spider-Man/Peter Parker, I'll stick to my guns with what Marv Wolfman did with the characterization of J.Jonah Jameson.

Unfortunately, Marvel took a Marvel-ous opportunity with what he did and let Dennis O'Neill throw it all away within the pages of ONE issue.

 

[stillanerd]

While perhaps no writer has ever really attributed to a character development with Spider-Man/Peter Parker, I'll stick to my guns with what Marv Wolfman did with the characterization of J.Jonah Jameson.

Unfortunately, Marvel took a Marvel-ous opportunity with what he did and let Dennis O'Neill throw it all away within the pages of ONE issue.

Well, reading those back issues, it's apparent that Marv Wolfman was going to have Jonas Harrow tie in somehow to Jameson's mental breakdown, but you're right. Rather than dealing with Jameson's recovery, we got a quick fix with the whole "It wasn't me! It was the mean machine!" solution. . Also, O'Neil threw away the other subplot Wolfman was working on with having Peter work for the Daily Globe and the whole K.J. identity. Denny O'Neil may have been one of the greatest Batman writers, but for Spider-Man? Sorry.

And Marv Wolfman's run also got crapped on in other way, in the sense that it was during his run where we got hints of Mary Jane's past and why she didn't want to marry Peter which wasn't dealt with after he left and Tom Deflaco did the writing chores--almost four to five years later.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I think some of you might be missing Dragon's overall point. Take a closer look at his statements:

In other words, he's talking about CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, where, because of the events he was involved with, Spider-Man, as a character, changed either in terms of his attitude, outlook on life, how he dealt with others, or just becoming more mature, not so much physiologically, but mentally and emotionally.

And The Clone Saga did those things. Peter stopped being Spider-Man and let Ben Reilly take the reigns, and Peter was about to become a father and we all saw what happened there.

 

[stillanerd]

And The Clone Saga did those things. Peter stopped being Spider-Man and let Ben Reilly take the reigns, and Peter was about to become a father and we all saw what happened there.

Ah, but in terms of LASTING DEVELOPMENT, the Clone Saga didn't have a lasting impact on Peter as a character (although it certainly did on the Spider-Man books and not in a good way). In part because it undermined all the previous development to Peter over the past 20 years by having a guy they claimed to be the real Spider-Man take his place (and act more in character than the current Spider-Man was at the time) and then undermine any development they had with Peter becoming a father by having Mary Jane have a miscarriage, insisting that if Peter was going to be Spider-Man, it would have been irresponsible of him to continue be a superhero and a father at the same time which was utter BS. I'd say it was a half-assed attempt at "developing" Spider-Man, but good example.

 

[DACrowe]

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. Many writers have made lasting contributions. How can anyone say that the death of Gwen Stacy is not a lasting contribution? No he did start dating again but it was his resilence to rebound. Now, he could have been weary of putting MJ, Deborha, BC or whoever in danger (actually he was weary of BC fighting with him as he was afraid she would get hurt) but that can be blamed on the writers keeping in their Lee-standards until well into the '80s. I mean Captain Stacy's death really didn't rock Peter to his core. Gwen Stacy did though.

And he has become more cynical since then and did "grow up." His confrontation with the burglar in #200 did show growth. And Conaway's development of Harry did deepen the character which later writers have exploited or explored (The Child Within and the Legacy storyline where he kdinaps his own family is rich and scary stuff) and his death was a great culmination.

And as stated numerous times you cannot flake off the marriage to MJ as a major step in his character. It is a lasting change which has changedh ow the character is preceieved and how he sees himself. He is more mature, adult and responsible now. He is no longer a swinging bachelor so much as a married man with worries and trying to balance his marriage with his other responsbilities and his love for MJ (if written well that is). And MJ has changed A LOT over the last several decade, undeniably so. She has developed and if the writing can be a bit clumsy in diologue we have gotten well into her psyche and it is a fascinating place in the '80s before the marriage and in the right hands has been interesting since.

Also as for Felica, while she definetly did not understand Peter Parker (at least when they were dating) and kind of ruined it for herself, how did she "use" Peter? She was in love with him and for a while he was with her (or at least infacuated). I mean she didn't manipulate him any, they just weren't very compatiable in the end though.

 

[stillanerd]

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. Many writers have made lasting contributions. How can anyone say that the death of Gwen Stacy is not a lasting contribution? No he did start dating again but it was his resilence to rebound. Now, he could have been weary of putting MJ, Deborha, BC or whoever in danger (actually he was weary of BC fighting with him as he was afraid she would get hurt) but that can be blamed on the writers keeping in their Lee-standards until well into the '80s. I mean Captain Stacy's death really didn't rock Peter to his core. Gwen Stacy did though.

"The Night Gwen Stacy Died" certainly had an effect on Spider-Man comics, and comics in general, for many years--no question. This, combined with placing Mary Jane as a person of greater importance to Peter's life certainly would make Gerry Conway someone who has contributed. Unfortunately, thanks to things like bringing Norman Osborn back and especially [blackout]Sins Past[/blackout] the overall impact of that story, thanks to other writers, has been somewhat diminished. As for Captain Stacy's death, one could say that was the first instance that someone Spider-Man cared about died because he was Spider-Man and that it also echoed Uncle Ben's death, plus it also reinforced Peter's notion that he couldn't tell Gwen he was Spider-Man out of fear that Gwen would blame him. But yes, Gwen's death proved to be far more earth-shattering.

And he has become more cynical since then and did "grow up." His confrontation with the burglar in #200 did show growth. And Conaway's development of Harry did deepen the character which later writers have exploited or explored (The Child Within and the Legacy storyline where he kdinaps his own family is rich and scary stuff) and his death was a great culmination.

Yes, I will agree that Harry certainly developed into an interesting character and would even argue he was a more fasinating Green Goblin than even his father.

And certainly Amazing #200 did offer some closure, but still Spider-Man retained his guilt over what happened, although to be fair that was something that shouldn't have changed. Except JMS has actually undermined that issue somewhat, first by retconning it so that Uncle Ben leaves the house after having a fight with Aunt May, even though it is essential for ASM #200 to work that both Aunt May and Uncle Ben to be together and for the burgular to confront them inside.

As for Spider-Man becoming more cynical? I don't really think so.

And as stated numerous times you cannot flake off the marriage to MJ as a major step in his character. It is a lasting change which has changedh ow the character is preceieved and how he sees himself. He is more mature, adult and responsible now. He is no longer a swinging bachelor so much as a married man with worries and trying to balance his marriage with his other responsbilities and his love for MJ (if written well that is). And MJ has changed A LOT over the last several decade, undeniably so. She has developed and if the writing can be a bit clumsy in diologue we have gotten well into her psyche and it is a fascinating place in the '80s before the marriage and in the right hands has been interesting since.

I agree 100% Problem is that Marvel, especially Joe Q, is afraid to take their marriage to the next level.

Also as for Felica, while she definetly did not understand Peter Parker (at least when they were dating) and kind of ruined it for herself, how did she "use" Peter? She was in love with him and for a while he was with her (or at least infacuated). I mean she didn't manipulate him any, they just weren't very compatiable in the end though.

I'd say Black Cat did manipulate Spidey in the beginning, what with her using her sex appeal to distract Spidey in getting away from robberies (not unlike what Catwoman did with Batman, mind you), and later faking that she was insane so Spidey wouldn't turn her into the cops. Another time, she even dated Flash Thompson to make Spidey jealous (only to, ironically, end up falling in love with Flash) Also, she only loved "Spider-Man" not Peter Parker (although that was somewhat of a retcon) in that she thought Spidey under the mask was some dashing, sophisticated hunk like Cary Grant, not some down-on-his-luck shumck like Woddy Allen who had to pay bills and take care of his Aunt. In some ways, even now, she still doesn't understand Spidey in that she wants him to be want she imagines him to be not who he really is.

 

[DACrowe]

Oh I agree she was in love with her romantic avenger Spider-Man and not her lover Peter Parker, but I don't think that was use. And to be fair the story of her stealing for him was actually set to create her as a love interest down the line and that is why they tried to retconn it only to fail and bring her back as a lover (and when Bill Mantlo wrote those comics a very interesting relationship it was).

As for her using sex appeal to distract him, yeah she did do that when they were "enemies" (he always handeled her with kid gloves in my opinion) and she did use Flash no doubts about that.

Flash is another character who until Peter David ****ed it up, was a great growing character. From jock, to budding rival and "friend" after the same girls, to former war hero (or I guess retconned to military service now) and then failed athlete who ruins all his relationships. In the end he is the one admiring what Peter has and is so good a friend he was Pete's best man. Haver ruining his relationship with Sha Shawn and ruining Betty's marriage before her death, he was pretty weak and miserable as a character and wanted what Pete and MJ have. He became an alcoholic and rebounded and was making something of himself again when Norman put him in a coma. It should've been a fascinating story that Jenkins started of him fighting his way back with his two only real friends (Peter and Liz) to help him back.

But no, he magically "healed" and is teaching at the school HE CRASHED INTO and has no recollection of the last 30 years of character development. Really SICKENING Marvel, really.

And for the record I agree it is time for the marriage to move on. I want to see them to have children. At least a daughter (I think though it would be a retread after May's death, a new daughter and a fresh start as I like it better for some reason than the FF/Superman route of having a son to pass the baton to). Something that could probably offer a good I dunno, 20 or 30 years worth of stories before she'd be even 10.

Why not? Oh that's right, Joey Q's a ***** afraid of development and wants to keep them in status quo while having SHOCKING EVENTS cover up the tedium of what writing in status quo will do.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I like what DeMatteis did, w/Kraven's Last Hunt & The Child Within. He gave some depth to a basically third-rate villain & expanded on Harry in a way no one ever had.

 

[Dragon]

That all sounds great Dragon Its a shame guys like you are not on the pay roll at Marvel right now

Thanks Doc, I wish the same thing

dragon, could you give an example of a few marvel characters that have evolved because a lot of them seem pretty static by your definition.

like wolverine now is pretty much like he's always been, same with cyclops, rogue, hulk, captain america etc.

I agree with you that Marvel in general kind of grinded to a halt character development-wise. In fact I was going to make my query about Marvel characters in general, but thought that would expand to far the raches of this discussion.

I haven't followed the bulk of Marvel's characters regularly in a long time. I think Peter David did alot of expanding of the Hulk's character during his run. Which of course was quickly undone once he left.

Again I think the real problem is that since the 70's the writers that have come up are comic book fans. And there's been in each generation a degrading of real writing skills in terms of character, concept, plotting and pacing.

I mean take as an example- It takes about 5 minutes to read a current comic book with a 22 page count. I was a few months back reading an issue of Master of Kung-fu from 1976. It took me about 20 minutes to read. And it had a 17 page count. Granted, Doug Moench had a very elaborate writing style and is kind of the exception, still that's a major difference.

I think Marvel really needs to develop a bible from which to work from, with extensive research on the characters, what they've experienced, and a comprehensive psychological profile on them so as to give the writers a jumping off point in developing the stories.

 

[Dragon]

But then, as Spider-Man became more popular, it seemed that there was a tendency for writers not have Spider-Man EMOTIONALLY grow up, evne though, ironically, they kept having him PHYSICALLY grow up. Even his powers developed more than he did emotionally, especially in the last couple of years. Sure, when Gwen Stacy died, he became darker until Mary Jane helped him to cope with his loss, but did he worry that his getting involved with another woman might lead to her suffering the same fate as Gwen? Not really. Sure he confronted the burglar years later and realized revenge wasn't the answer, but did he stop blaming himself for his Uncle's death? Not really. Sure his relationship with the Black Cat made him realize that his trust in people could be exploited, but did he learn to become a little more suspicious of others who flatter him...like Iron Man for instance? Not really. Sure his experiences with mystical spider totems (as well as other cosmic and supernatural enities) make him realize there is more "out there" than he may have realized, but has this made him see that there are things that science can't explain or that it's not always as reliable as he might think? Not really. He keeps repeating the same mistakes and having to relearn the same lessons.

Thank you stillanerd. Perfectly put. That's exactly my point.

 

[stillanerd]

Thank you stillanerd. Perfectly put. That's exactly my point.

Glad to be of help, Dragon. As for your idea of a "Marvel Bible" you would think that's what the Official Guides that they put out every year are supposed to be. Course having writers read back issues wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Dragon]

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. Many writers have made lasting contributions. How can anyone say that the death of Gwen Stacy is not a lasting contribution? No he did start dating again but it was his resilence to rebound. Now, he could have been weary of putting MJ, Deborha, BC or whoever in danger (actually he was weary of BC fighting with him as he was afraid she would get hurt) but that can be blamed on the writers keeping in their Lee-standards until well into the '80s. I mean Captain Stacy's death really didn't rock Peter to his core. Gwen Stacy did though.

Again- the loss of Gwen was lasting- but has never been actually dealt with. The only lasting thing about Gwen's death is the semi-annual reminiscences that so many of you wind up griping about.

Show me where Peter made decisions, took actions, made choices that he wouldn't have prior to Gwen's death? Gwen was murdered because a villain learned Peter's identity- yet Marvel has Peter unmasking in front of the world. Does that make sense for him?

MJ was nearly killed by Harry in ASM #136. A repeat of the events that took Gwen from him. How did Peter react? He went after Harry and tried to reason with him. Based on the trauma Peter had suffered from Gwen- it's more likely that Peter would have- seeing Harry in the costume of the murderer of his true love- pummelled him within an inch of his life. And yes- Peter would later have regretted it. And that's the point. He's human. He's affected by events and sometimes makes mistakes. But Marvel's creative staff never think that way. Only in terms of events. Never in terms of character. If Stan had handled Gwen's death, we likely would have seen Peter shattered to his foundations. Possibly an issue of two where he couldn't even put the costume back on. And there'd be a long time before he could even think of loving someone again. MJ would have had to literally pull him back together. And then- THEN they'd have the type of relationship that so many people attribute to them just because they've been together for a long time.

And he has become more cynical since then and did "grow up."

Where? When he got involved with Black Cat? A known criminal? Was that cynicism? When he helped free Norman Osborn from prison? Was that cynicism? When he let Tony Stark pull him by the nose into a press room to remove his mask?

And as stated numerous times you cannot flake off the marriage to MJ as a major step in his character.

Yes I can. It was just another event. Not a real step.

First, look at how it happened. not after the further development of Peter and MJ's relationship. It came out of left field, because of events in the newspaper strip.

It is a lasting change which has changedh ow the character is preceieved and how he sees himself. He is more mature, adult and responsible now. He is no longer a swinging bachelor so much as a married man with worries and trying to balance his marriage with his other responsbilities and his love for MJ (if written well that is). And MJ has changed A LOT over the last several decade, undeniably so. She has developed and if the writing can be a bit clumsy in diologue we have gotten well into her psyche and it is a fascinating place in the '80s before the marriage and in the right hands has been interesting since.

It isn't a lasting change. Peter is the same with or without MJ, except that he has a trophy wife there to present eye candy for virginal fanboys, and a female that fangirls can live vicariously through (And of course, vice-versa for the gay comic fan community ).

And the marriage as an entity needs to grow, as well as Peter and MJ within the marriage. Which it and they haven't. But then, the marriage was built on a shaky foundation.

Also as for Felica, while she definetly did not understand Peter Parker (at least when they were dating) and kind of ruined it for herself, how did she "use" Peter? She was in love with him and for a while he was with her (or at least infacuated). I mean she didn't manipulate him any, they just weren't very compatiable in the end though.

What Peter and Felicia experienced wasn't love. She- did not love him if she couldn't accept him for who he really is. And he did not love her if is perception of her was not clear enough to grasp her superficial fascination with him. And- the very fact that Peter, having experienced real love with both Gwen and MJ was too dumb to know the difference kills your point about Peter's passing into manhood after Gwen's death. He was even more naive than during Stan's run.

Peter should have known that his relationship with Felicia was merely a casual affair and took it as something he needed in absence of real love in his life. They certainly could have exploited BC's obsession with him because of her craziness and had him deal with that. And perhaps in doing so made him appreciate the idea of real love, and made him seek to move forward with MJ.
Not immediately propse, mind you- just move forward.

And again- did he grow in his marriage? Well, for one thing, he'd have been that much more anxious about his identity being protected. Was he? Nope. And, with the re-emergence of Norman Osborn, he'd likely have been that much more concerned with taking him down to protect MJ. Did that happen? Nope.

Not to mention the previoulsy discussed revelation of Norman being responsible for his daughter's death. HIS DAUGHTER'S DEATH. Is that a real reaction? A human reaction? Nope.

 

[farmernudie]

Show me where Peter made decisions, took actions, made choices that he wouldn't have prior to Gwen's death? Gwen was murdered because a villain learned Peter's identity- yet Marvel has Peter unmasking in front of the world. Does that make sense for him?

Thank you. Can't be better stated.

Great post!