Comics Contributions to the Spider-Man Mythos..

[DACrowe]

Dragon you make some good points but you are far too harsh on criticzing aspects of the character and do flake off interesting aspects. I see we totally disagree on the marriage and will argue 'till we're blue in the face on that one but suffice to say we agree to disaggree and that you think it is a shallow event and I think when it is well written is definetly a major step in teh character, the biggest since Lee left.

And I agree with you on the unmasking but I am speaking of before this point as I have never called that a good cntribution as, yes it is majroly out of character especially if he cares for MJ and Aunt May so much.

With the B lack Cat I did say he was infacuated with her and most likely her with him but they did profess they "loved" each other anyway. Peter realized it was otherwise and called the whole thing off. And don't tell me you haven't been in a relationship wher eit really didn't work but for a short time you thought it would now?

As for what you said about Gwen, I do believe he should have been more shattered and you are right about that. However, I think moving on the Lee standard (which was to keep things mostly upbeat, even if Pete was in the pits of dispair) they move quickly through the dark points (within 5 issues the death of Captain Stacy was talked about between Pete and Gwen matter of factly after the drug issues IMO) and so we had a shattered Pete who did hunt Norman down to kill him and did abandon his friend in desperate need on an LSD overdose and did say things like MJ wouldn't mourn her own mother's death. These of course were not true. And he did rebound unfortunately it took what about 6 months for him to put his feet back in the water and about 15 before he dove in head first. However that was the writing style of the time but the event has never been much of a forgotten joke. Peter does reminece. And I like them when well done (DeMathiss's The Kiss and Spider-Man: Blue) however when they essientially say he loved Gwen more than MJ, I find it a bit of a joke as he is happily married and essientially said it was time to let that go in the wedding issue (again Spider-Man: Blue and the horrid Sins Past).

And though Peter should have been on a rampage after Norman returned (a second time, he kind of "killed" Norman after Ben died) for his daughter's sake (which is something I AGREE with you on is a major point of plot that should be handelled a lot but I have only seen him mourn her in several issues in the late '90s and never again) but they tried to sweep that under the carpet unfortunately. Though when Jenkins wrote GG stories he made it far more personal than Mackie did (who knew how to write a decent Norman but not much else) as with Trick of Light where the mention of his daughter, MJ and "that stupid blonde girl" caused Peter to try and beat Norman to death and in Death in the Family where he essientially sentences Norman to "life as yourself" in Gwen's name which was so poignant a moment I was personally hoping that that would be the last GG story.

But you do have a point there though.

 

[Dragon]

Dragon you make some good points but you are far too harsh on criticzing aspects of the character and do flake off interesting aspects. I see we totally disagree on the marriage and will argue 'till we're blue in the face on that one but suffice to say we agree to disaggree and that you think it is a shallow event and I think when it is well written is definetly a major step in teh character, the biggest since Lee left.

I'd be happy to agree with you if you'd provide something to back up your assertion.

With the B lack Cat I did say he was infacuated with her and most likely her with him but they did profess they "loved" each other anyway. Peter realized it was otherwise and called the whole thing off. And don't tell me you haven't been in a relationship wher eit really didn't work but for a short time you thought it would now?

If the woman I'm dating flashes a switchblade at the drop of hat, kicks people's asses as part of her Saturday night routine, and spends Sunday morning with her head over the toilet bowl puking her guts out, I'd pretty much know we weren't headed for white picket fences. And yes, I have had such relationships

Peter- especially if he's more cynical as you mention, should have easily spotted his relationship with BC as having a short shelf life. And that's fine. not every relationship can or should be about marriage and kids. Especially in a high-stress life like Peter's.

As for what you said about Gwen, I do believe he should have been more shattered and you are right about that. However, I think moving on the Lee standard (which was to keep things mostly upbeat, even if Pete was in the pits of dispair) they move quickly through the dark points (within 5 issues the death of Captain Stacy was talked about between Pete and Gwen matter of factly after the drug issues IMO)

Captain Stacy's death resonated in ASM for 8 months (our time) and continued to affect Peter's life long after. That was still his chief reason for not revealing his secret to Gwen.

and so we had a shattered Pete who did hunt Norman down to kill him and did abandon his friend in desperate need on an LSD overdose and did say things like MJ wouldn't mourn her own mother's death. These of course were not true.

That all happened in one issue. Hardly a lasting effect.

And he did rebound unfortunately it took what about 6 months for him to put his feet back in the water and about 15 before he dove in head first.However that was the writing style of the time but the event has never been much of a forgotten joke.

5 months actually. MJ being dropped by the Vulture in ASM #127 gave Spidey a Gwen flashback. Even less time than the mourning period for Gwen's dad.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Not to mention the previoulsy discussed revelation of Norman being responsible for his daughter's death. HIS DAUGHTER'S DEATH. Is that a real reaction? A human reaction? Nope.

I have severe breaks in my Spidey mythos.....25+ year hiatus will do that to you ......when did Pete discover that Norman was responsible for the death of his daughter?...All I seem to remember is Pete believing May was alive and being held by Osborn....only to find out it was Aunt May?...did I speed read through something?

 

[Chris Wallace]

Baby May's death has never been confirmed.

 

[Dragon]

It was according to MKSM #9. The Scorpion says to Peter that Osborn murdered his daughter- and says it as though Peter would have already known.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Baby May's death has never been confirmed.

That's what I thought....I think I just misunderstood Dragon....I know Norman threw an "I killed your baby" in Parker's face.....but as of right now in continuity....Peter believes MJ miscarried....am I right?

 

[Norman Osborn]

It was according to MKSM #9. The Scorpion says to Peter that Osborn murdered his daughter- and says it as though Peter would have already known.

Don't have the Marvel Knight set....but wow...just friggin wow!!....was this ever resolved?....or was this an editorial mistake...ie someone didn't bother to check on the status of Baby May's ?...I'm absolutely blown away

 

[Dragon]

Gargan (while at a lunch table with Pete): "You get a costume. He gets a costume. He kills your unborn child. You kill his son."

Peter: "I didn't kill Harry."

Gargan: "Whatever."

And that's Peter's reaction to the mention of his child being killed.

 

[The Joker]

Marvel Knights sucked. Nothing good came from it, except Electro being re-established as a genuine threat.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Gargan (while at a lunch table with Pete): "You get a costume. He gets a costume. He kills your unborn child. You kill his son."

Peter: "I didn't kill Harry."

Gargan: "Whatever."

And that's Peter's reaction to the mention of his child being killed.

Wow...just wow!!....and he later breaks Osborn out?..(read it at spiderfan after reading your post on the issue #)

As I've said, I've never read the arc but just from those two plot points, I'm amazed the "Last Stand" arc gets the praise it does!

 

[Dragon]

Marvel Knights sucked. Nothing good came from it, except Electro being re-established as a genuine threat.

So true. Peter outting John Jr. as Spider-Man was one of the particular low points.

 

[stillanerd]

So true. Peter outting John Jr. as Spider-Man was one of the particular low points.

No kidding. Not to mention a promising fight between the Green Goblin and Doc Ock being ended by a random bolt of lightning--literally.

Wow...just wow!!....and he later breaks Osborn out?..(read it at spiderfan after reading your post on the issue #)

As I've said, I've never read the arc but just from those two plot points, I'm amazed the "Last Stand" arc gets the praise it does!

Basically, it was the last five issues of Millar's run on Marvel Knights is when everything started going downhill. Then Reggie Hudlin made it worse. Such as the Absorbing Man becoming crack cocaine and users gaining his powers after they snorted him, for instance.

 

[freemadison]

Mmmmm....power crack

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Then Reggie Hudlin made it worse. Such as the Absorbing Man becoming crack cocaine and users gaining his powers after they snorted him, for instance.

Really? I thought that was a particularly brilliant way of dealing with The Absorbing Man.

Different strokes, i guess.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I liked it. What I didn't like was Virtue.

 

[DACrowe]

HOnestly from a continuity stand point Mark MIllar's run on Marvel Knights was slightly disappointing as it ruined in many respects Death in the Family, the second best original Green Goblin story ever written in my opinion and continued the tarnishing of the Lizard's character and as stated the rather cynical and cold reaction to the mention of his daughter's death.

But it was SO well written and the 11 issues of the 12 Dodson drew were gorgeous. I thought it was the best one to handle Black Cat since her disappearence after Pete dumped her in the '80s (I hated how michilline wrote her and until Smith's which was just meh/okay, she was nothing more than a ****ty team up after that). And I really enjoyed aspects like Norman forcing Pete to break him out of jail.

In fact I think if some interesting plot points were changed that instead of losing a fight after the Death in the Family storyline Norman outs himself only so he can take the game out of "stalemate" and confesses and puts himself in prison only so Peter can break him out, just to shatter Peter's moral high ground would've been great. And as I said I really liked how MJ in this story took the iniative over Peter and called the Avengers and FF and more apporpiately shot Norman Osborn with a gun (I think it would have been bemusing if MJ shot Osborn on top of the bridge where Gwen died since Peter never got hte salt to kill Osborn himself)....

so I enjoy the run but considering how certain characters were handeled (e.g. Lizard, Venom and arguably GG at the beginning) was dsappointing. I also thoroughly enjoyed the first four issues where Electro rapes Spidey and Vulture shows himself to be a caring grandparent who can't recognize Peter Parker after kidnapping him and being defeated and mutilated by Black Cat. Just a great storyline there though.

 

[Dragon]

HOnestly from a continuity stand point Mark MIllar's run on Marvel Knights was slightly disappointing as it ruined in many respects Death in the Family, the second best original Green Goblin story ever written in my opinion and continued the tarnishing of the Lizard's character and as stated the rather cynical and cold reaction to the mention of his daughter's death.

But it was SO well written and the 11 issues of the 12 Dodson drew were gorgeous. I thought it was the best one to handle Black Cat since her disappearence after Pete dumped her in the '80s (I hated how michilline wrote her and until Smith's which was just meh/okay, she was nothing more than a ****ty team up after that). And I really enjoyed aspects like Norman forcing Pete to break him out of jail.

In fact I think if some interesting plot points were changed that instead of losing a fight after the Death in the Family storyline Norman outs himself only so he can take the game out of "stalemate" and confesses and puts himself in prison only so Peter can break him out, just to shatter Peter's moral high ground would've been great. And as I said I really liked how MJ in this story took the iniative over Peter and called the Avengers and FF and more apporpiately shot Norman Osborn with a gun (I think it would have been bemusing if MJ shot Osborn on top of the bridge where Gwen died since Peter never got hte salt to kill Osborn himself)....

so I enjoy the run but considering how certain characters were handeled (e.g. Lizard, Venom and arguably GG at the beginning) was dsappointing. I also thoroughly enjoyed the first four issues where Electro rapes Spidey and Vulture shows himself to be a caring grandparent who can't recognize Peter Parker after kidnapping him and being defeated and mutilated by Black Cat. Just a great storyline there though.

I'm curious about where it was well-written. Pretty much everyone's characterization is off. Reactions are fake and contrived. Doc Ock is rendered to an automaton. Peter continues to be a wuss and an idiot. The symbiote, by its nature can't be "given" to someone else. It has to accept them. Scorpion becomes just another Venom, rather than a new, interesting amalgam of Venom and scorpion. Black Cat, with no super powers handling the Vulture easier than Spidey with super powers ever has. Ock vs. the Goblin ends in a silly cop-out. Yet another tiresome revisiting of The Bridge. Oh and the silly villain conspiracy.

It's this type of mishandling that inspired me to start this thread.

 

[gildea]

Personally I thought the characterization was great.

Nothing fake about the reactions either. (any examples of that?)

Ock was supposed to be an automaton.

Peter was hardly a wuss, he had some incredibly brutal fights and even in his peter persona he was a lot more forthright (in the school renuion and so on)

For all we know the symbiote had agreed to this with brock.

scorpion was an amalgam of venom and scorpion, his entire schtick was how he felt inferior and spidey even picked up on this which was gargans thing from the very beginning.

vulture is an old man in a suit. never understood why isn't a more comedy villain.

 

[Dragon]

Personally I thought the characterization was great.

Nothing fake about the reactions either. (any examples of that?)

Jameson somehow forgetting that he's seen Spidey and John fight right in front of him, thus making John's outting being impossible.

My previously mentioned reaction from Peter to his daughter's murder by Osborn. Peter's reaction to Osborn bringing MJ to the bridge to kill her.
Peter releasing Osborn from prison.

Peter is supposed to bust up Osborn. He's supposed to outsmart him and leave him crushed. He's supposed to foil his plans and free May himself. Not be Osborn's (Or Starks, or whomever else) tool.

Ock was supposed to be an automaton.

Ock's supposed to be a scientific genius with a terrible mean streak who goes for blood when prompted. He was made an automaton so that the fight with the Goblin would result in no one winning.

Peter was hardly a wuss, he had some incredibly brutal fights and even in his peter persona he was a lot more forthright (in the school renuion and so on)

Peter got his ass kicked throughout. He didn't win a single decisive victory.

For all we know the symbiote had agreed to this with brock.

The symbiote does its own bidding. The symbiote is a creature that exists on emotion. It linked with Peter because it loved him. It linked with Brock because Brock hated Spider-Man and at that point so did the symbiote. If you will you could consider that the symbiote expresses its connection with its host the way a woman expresses her love. The symbiote wouldn't allow itself to be sold to the highest bidder. It needs the emotinal connection to function.

scorpion was an amalgam of venom and scorpion, his entire schtick was how he felt inferior and spidey even picked up on this which was gargans thing from the very beginning.

When I say amalgam, I mean that he should have still been the Scorpion, with the tail and so forth- but with his strength, agility and so forth enhanced by the suit. It shouldn't have made another Spider-Man. It should have made a deadlier Scorpion.

vulture is an old man in a suit. never understood why isn't a more comedy villain.

Yeah? Read his earlier appearances. He wasn't meant to be "an old man in a suit". He was meant to be feared. And regardless he still always gave Spidey a tougher run than he gave BC. And for that matter, BC was kicking the Lizard around as well. Is Liz supposed to be an overgrown salamander?

 

[gildea]

Jameson somehow forgetting that he's seen Spidey and John fight right in front of him, thus making John's outting being impossible.

Given the times jonahs claimed someone is spidey despite seeing them together I can swallow that pretty easily.

My previously mentioned reaction from Peter to his daughter's murder by Osborn.

How should he have reacted? He was in a public place and already told he couldn't hurt gargan. There is no specific reaction to that thing. Ignoring it and not rising to it seems fairly sensible to me.

Peter's reaction to Osborn bringing MJ to the bridge to kill her.
Peter releasing Osborn from prison.

All of them motivated by story and in character in an impossible situation

Peter is supposed to bust up Osborn. He's supposed to outsmart him and leave him crushed. He's supposed to foil his plans and free May himself. Not be Osborn's (Or Starks, or whomever else) tool.

He did.
Its not the first time he's went along with a villains plan before winning the day either.

Ock's supposed to be a scientific genius with a terrible mean streak who goes for blood when prompted. He was made an automaton so that the fight with the Goblin would result in no one winning.

They made him an automoton so he would fight osborn. He was under mind control remember?

Peter got his ass kicked throughout. He didn't win a single decisive victory.

Factually wrong. He skelped venom.

The symbiote does its own bidding. The symbiote is a creature that exists on emotion. It linked with Peter because it loved him. It linked with Brock because Brock hated Spider-Man and at that point so did the symbiote. If you will you could consider that the symbiote expresses its connection with its host the way a woman expresses her love. The symbiote wouldn't allow itself to be sold to the highest bidder. It needs the emotinal connection to function.

As i said this may have been something it agreed to with brock. As you seen during the story it changed its mind principally because of the lack of venom or emotion in the kid.
You have no special insight in the suit that allows you to claim what it would and wouldn't do.

Yeah? Read his earlier appearances. He wasn't meant to be "an old man in a suit". He was meant to be feared.

Regardless of what he was "meant to be" he was and is only ever an old man in a suit.

And regardless he still always gave Spidey a tougher run than he gave BC. And for that matter, BC was kicking the Lizard around as well. Is Liz supposed to be an overgrown salamander?

Yeah she shouldn't kick lizard around.

 

[Dragon]

Given the times jonahs claimed someone is spidey despite seeing them together I can swallow that pretty easily.

Like who? And did he see the person he accused transform from a werewolf into his son while spider-Man was standing right there? Did he see the person in gigantic mutated form, and then seconds later Spider-Man at his normal size? Did the person save himself while by landing atop a space capsule, while he was shown to be inside the same space capsule trapped?

And considering his out and out hatred of Spider-Man JJJ would never accept that his beloved hero astronaut son was the same person he hated. Not without stronger proof than photos which could easily have been (and were) doctored.

How should he have reacted? He was in a public place and already told he couldn't hurt gargan. There is no specific reaction to that thing. Ignoring it and not rising to it seems fairly sensible to me.

He should have, would have told Gargan to go screw himself, and trusted that he could find a way to save May in time.

All of them motivated by story and in character in an impossible situation

He's been in impossible situations all his life. No matter what, he'd never trust Osborn, knowing what he was capable of.

He did.
Its not the first time he's went along with a villains plan before winning the day either.

Going along with the plan to later thwart their ultimate plan is one thing. Peter didn't thwart Osborn's plan. And where did he win? Was there an issue I missed? I saw him, MJ and May survive by luck.

They made him an automoton so he would fight osborn. He was under mind control remember?

Exactly. Ock wouldn't be that easily controlled. and in a well-written story, he would have been presented with this wits intact, so that it would be a real battle, no just a placeholder.

Factually wrong. He skelped venom.

He buried Venom in a building and ran. You know something like that wouldn't stop Venom. So that's not a decisive victory. and if, out of all the fights Peter had in that run, that's the only win you can come up with, you've proven my point.

As i said this may have been something it agreed to with brock. As you seen during the story it changed its mind principally because of the lack of venom or emotion in the kid.
You have no special insight in the suit that allows you to claim what it would and wouldn't do.

Sure I do. It's being able to read. And your point is nothing but your attempt to fill in the blanks to justify the unjustifiable. Your insight isn't particularly valid either.

Regardless of what he was "meant to be" he was and is only ever an old man in a suit.

A Peter is a skinny punk in tights. And Venom is a guy surrounded in goo.

Yeah she shouldn't kick lizard around.

Yep.

The fact that you're willing to accept bad writing at face value doesn't make the story any good.

 

[gildea]

He buried Venom in a building and ran. You know something like that wouldn't stop Venom. So that's not a decisive victory. and if, out of all the fights Peter had in that run, that's the only win you can come up with, you've proven my point.

I was referring to the kid venom actually.
I could also have mentioned osborn in the first issue btw.
And giving an example that direct counter acts your point hardly proves it.

Ock wouldn't be that easily controlled.

I didn't know you were an expert on mind control. The experiments on him weren't described in enough detail for someone to claim "they couldn't do that" I would think.

It was also hardly easy given that he actually broke away from them issues earlier.

nd your point is nothing but your attempt to fill in the blanks to justify the unjustifiable.

Hardly. Its a simple inference from venoms prior appearances and the course the story goes.

The fact that you're willing to accept bad writing at face value doesn't make the story any good.

One thing I disagree with doesn't ruin a story. Particuarly something as trivial as black cat being effective on someone stronger than her.

Otherwise I wouldn't be reading comics.

He should have, would have told Gargan to go screw himself, and trusted that he could find a way to save May in time.

Why?


Your insistance on absolutes without any real evidence and continuing sweeping generalisations is rather weak I must say.

Anyhoo I'm done.

 

[Dragon]

I was referring to the kid venom actually.
I could also have mentioned osborn in the first issue btw.
And giving an example that direct counter acts your point hardly proves it.

Even worse. Beating a pushover is your idea of a victory? I'll bet if Spidey tried really hard, he could kick the walker from under a little old lady, too. And yeah, if your point does nothing to reinforce your argument, but substantiates mine by proving that you can't name a decisive victory of Spidey's during that run, then you prove my point. Not that hard a concept to grasp.

I didn't know you were an expert on mind control. The experiments on him weren't described in enough detail for someone to claim "they couldn't do that" I would think.

Oh please. The point that seems to escpae you is that writing Ock at his most dangerous would have taken skill. Just another example of the failings of this poorly written arc.

Hardly. Its a simple inference from venoms prior appearances and the course the story goes.

What inferences are those? Give actual examples please.

One thing I disagree with doesn't ruin a story. Particuarly something as trivial as black cat being effective on someone stronger than her.

Trivial? Making Spidey out to be a total wuss is trivial? Because yes, to show someone who doesn't have a tenth of his power tearing apart someone who gave him a hard fight repeatedly is a wussifying.

Why?

Okay- if someone just bragged to you that his partner murdered your child- would YOU be merely correcting his description of the events? Or would you kick his ass? Do you understand the concept of real human emotion? Or do you think it works this way in real life?

Your insistance on absolutes without any real evidence and continuing sweeping generalisations is rather weak I must say.

You mean like the way you dance around every challenge I make to your points by addressing something else? Yeah, I guess so. And I have been presenting evidence in the form of actual story points. You, with "Given the times jonahs claimed someone is spidey despite seeing them together I can swallow that pretty easily." without being able to point out an actual story or anything where this happnes are dealing in generalizations.

Anyhoo I'm done.

You haven't even begun. Goodnight.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I don't think it got Peter entirely wrong but the May moment was terrible. And I think if Norman was written better at the beginning (he willingly lets himself be arrested just so he can make Peter break him out and end the stalemate) it woulda' been better. And I agree though that the Lizard sucked (though due to Jenkins raping of the character) as did Venom.

I actually as said enjoyed Black Cat's treatment in this run and think Vulture was done very well. Here is a guy who actually has some depth FOR ONCE and you can see just how pissed he is when he attacks Parker in the hospital and Black Cat defeating him isn't that unfathomable (kicking Lizard and not breaking her leg is). And Electro was treated very well in this run as was the Owl. And the high school reunion was a nice touch. And as I said the first four issues were gold.

I also didn't mind Ock as he was brainwashed in this run and not himself. I think it is a bit okay as we have the Jenkins run that gave us the best GG, Doc Ock and Venom stories in years (albeit very ****ty interpretations of Lizard and Sandman though).

 

[The Joker]

I also didn't mind Ock as he was brainwashed in this run and not himself. I think it is a bit okay as we have the Jenkins run that gave us the best GG, Doc Ock and Venom stories in years (albeit very ****ty interpretations of Lizard and Sandman though).

Are you saying that just because a writer wrote decent stories for the villains in one title, its ok for another writer to write them like crap in another title??

Btw Dragon, your PM box is maxed out AGAIN!!