Cosplayer called 'racist' for dressing as black character

Jesus Christ...Projection much? I've met plenty of Germans, and because I'm not a lazy ***hole I don't stereotype them and sit back wondering if he's going to start goose-stepping and trying to gas me. This says a lot about you, is the first thing you think of when you meet a German "Oh God, dude's probably going to start carving swastikas into my furniture..."?

Miraculously, when I meet a German in 2014 I don't assume he's a Nazi from 1939. I also don't meet a black guy and assume he's a thief. I don't meet an Asian and wonder if they're smart and bad drivers. I don't meet a Muslim and assume he's a jihadist. What I do do though, and what I would implore other people to do is treat whoever you come into contact with on a case by case basis.

How ****ing ridiculous would it be if everyone was held responsible for the historical crimes of their ancestors? Come on man, I advocate historical sensitivity and thinking things through, but trying to claim "WE as whites? What gives you the right to stipulate what people should or shouldn't feel responsible for?

When did I say that I got terrified? When I hear that someone is German, the reflexive thought in my head is "Holocaust". That's my association with Germany. I don't automatically assume every German I meet is a ****ing Nazi, nor do I assume anything about most people that I meet. In fact, when I find myself making those reflexive judgments, I call myself out on it because I try very hard not to be a racist *******.

All I am trying to say is that "white" is associated with a LOT of oppression, even as recently as the 1960s (as far as explicit and very visible oppression and discrimination goes) here in the US. That's just how it is; that's how it's going to be. The biggest impact your ethnicity or race or nationality or WHATEVER has had on other people is what they are going to think of FIRST, and it takes getting to know individuals or educating yourself on others or other aspects of their history, or at least being open-minded and realizing that not everyone fits the stereotype or association you have before people can see past those things.

I don't fault anyone for being cautious to trust or listen to people who have systematically been the oppressors.

I as an individual know what I advocate for and who I advocate for, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize and acknowledge that people like me have been responsible for some pretty reprehensible things done to other people, and that we create these quick-judgment walls as a way of protecting ourselves from the possible "bad apples". But yeah, absolutely, we have to be open-minded enough to know that "not all _____" are the same, and to judge individuals individually.

You don't fault someone for not being able to pick out the poisonous M&M in a jar though.
 
And I am mad about those things, and I do keep up on issues like that. But this thread is not about those things either. Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive. Why can't I be more angry about the things that you mentioned, but still frustrated or upset about this? Why does all of my anger or frustration have to be in the direction of the big issues without being able to be frustrated by smaller issues? Because you say so? Because you think it's a ridiculous thing for people to be upset about? It's not up for you to judge what anyone should or shouldn't be passionate about, or what subject is too small or too large for them to care about. It's up to them. You know next to nothing about me, you have no idea what kinds of discussions I have or activism I do or anything.

All you have seen from me is response to an on-topic thread that is about a very narrow, one subject issue. I am allowed to be upset and angry about this if I want to be, I am allowed to be objective or subjective if I want to be, I am allowed to side with whomever I want, and to exercise my right to an opinion.
And I can say your opinion is silly.

While I agree that cosplay is an art, and that human skin can be a canvas, there is a difference between painting on a human canvas, and creating a work of art, and painting yourself to have a different skin color. Surely you can see that.
No, I can not. And if you're an artist you'd understand. Canvas matters not. Intent and content does.
I have tattoos. I consider them art. They are art on the canvas that is my body and my skin. But they are decorative, and they are well thought out. I don't care how "avant-garde" you think a piece is, painting an entire canvas with one color is not an art piece.
Nevermind, you're not an artist. Are you seriously trying to say she just smeared black paint randomly over her face, or have you ever painted anything ever?

You have tattoos so I should consider you an artist?

And painting a canvas with the intent to imitate another canvas is called plagiarism and art theft, and it's wrong. So if you're going to keep using the art metaphor, then that's my argument against that.
And now you're just sad. So when comic artists try to make their drawings look like RDJr they're plagiarising? Hilarious.

Oh, and it's called an homage.
 
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I'm a white South African, there is no country in the world that has had more discussions and struggles with emerging from an entrenched racist society as South Africa.
Well... except America.

Essentially completely removing somebody's personal history or individual experience and reducing their importance in the discussion to the color of their skin.
I think it's so hilarious that you think this is what's happening to white people, because this is exactly what happens to black people when they are represented by blackface. Unintentially the cosplayer took everything that was interesting about that character (I don't even know who the character is!) and reduced her down to 1 pound of bad makeup, a ratty wig and an offensive looking nose. It was a bad imitation of blackness and this is why blackface/yellowface/whiteface is never a good idea.

It just comes down to that some white people want to treat the discrimination of not so long ago like it's such old news, we should forget it. And those racist monsters of the past - not their relatives, so they're wiping their hands of it. But when a minority person wants to express deep connections about something related to that same racism, the white people feel their opinion should be counted as just as equal as the black person's even though the white person said "it's just the past" to them. Wait, you don't think this kind of racism is a big deal, you think the major discrimination is purely in the past, yet you have strong opinions on how people of color whose still feel the oppression should not have an opinion on it??? Educate yourself or listen to the people who have actually researched and cared about the issue.
 
And painting a canvas with the intent to imitate another canvas is called plagiarism and art theft, and it's wrong. So if you're going to keep using the art metaphor, then that's my argument against that.

So now imitative fan art is wrong, everyone. Doesn't matter if you're making a profit from it or not. It's just wrong.

Sorry.
 
I think there are dismissive people on both sides.

Definitely, I'd agree. The prevailing trend though seems to be that any white person who offers their opinion is removed from the discussion - for being white. Between approximately 1200-1600 there were Malian slaves as well as captured Christians used by Muslims from what is now Sudan. I'm assuming if a Muslim guy cosplays as Shaft and paints himself black he isn't going to be branded a racist and have allegories of American slavery thrown in his face? I understand the history of African Americans with slavery is far more recent, and I can understand people disliking what the girl did (I'm not a fan of it either, for the reasons people have already mentioned) but it seems ridiculous to stumble through conversations labeling what she's done as being racist and condoning racism.

Another reason I find this odd is because if a guy dresses as female character for cosplay because he likes the character, or as a joke, they're not suddenly turned into pariahs and called sexists even though the subjugation of women by men is historically far more apparent than any single race subjugating another. Like the Gamergate thing this whole story will degenerate into ****-slinging from both sides, instead of people considering this matter on its own merits and applying logic to it.
 
How is RDJ a canvas? If you paint something that is supposed to look like or very close to some other PAINTING (like, say, you decide you're going to paint Vincent van Gogh's Starry Night and pass it off as your own original art), then that is definitely theft, and it's wrong.

And sorry, but if someone were to paint their body one whole color, I wouldn't call it art. No matter the color. And especially not if it's to imitate someone else's skin color. The same way I wouldn't call a canvas painted all one color "art". I guess we have subjective ideas on what "art" is. And we're allowed to.

I suppose maybe I should just say that I guess the opinion on whether or not this is racist is subjective, and that we're never going to agree.

So in that vein, thanks for the debate, sorry if I ruffled feathers or pissed people off in the expressing of my opinion. I gotta head home from work.

I do agree that intent and content matters, absolutely. I will 100% agree with that, and a couple pages back even said something to that affect. I still think it's tasteless, tacky, and a bit racist to paint yourself to look like a different race, regardless of intent, but that's the point of contention. You don't, and that's cool too. We can move on with our lives knowing we won't change the opinions of the other side.
 
How is RDJ a canvas?
You clearly don't know how acting and directing work.
If you paint something that is supposed to look like or very close to some other PAINTING (like, say, you decide you're going to paint Vincent van Gogh's Starry Night and pass it off as your own original art), then that is definitely theft, and it's wrong.
Not if I change it enough and make it my own.

And sorry, but if someone were to paint their body one whole color, I wouldn't call it art. No matter the color. And especially not if it's to imitate someone else's skin color. The same way I wouldn't call a canvas painted all one color "art". I guess we have subjective ideas on what "art" is. And we're allowed to.
That isn't what we're talking about, is it? you're melting down.

I suppose maybe I should just say that I guess the opinion on whether or not this is racist is subjective, and that we're never going to agree.

So in that vein, thanks for the debate, sorry if I ruffled feathers or pissed people off in the expressing of my opinion. I gotta head home from work.

I do agree that intent and content matters, absolutely. I will 100% agree with that, and a couple pages back even said something to that affect. I still think it's tasteless, tacky, and a bit racist to paint yourself to look like a different race, regardless of intent, but that's the point of contention. You don't, and that's cool too. We can move on with our lives knowing we won't change the opinions of the other side.
If intent and content doesn't matter, then really the only solution is segregation. As opposed to we're all allowed to laugh at each other and AGAIN...This girl was idolizing this character and trying to be her. How is that racist? Seriously? How?
 
When did I say that I got terrified? When I hear that someone is German, the reflexive thought in my head is "Holocaust". That's my association with Germany. I don't automatically assume every German I meet is a ****ing Nazi, nor do I assume anything about most people that I meet. In fact, when I find myself making those reflexive judgments, I call myself out on it because I try very hard not to be a racist *******.

That's so strange, because by asking me that question you were trying to imply (and project) that I should have a similar reaction. What's weird, is people have idiosyncrasies.
All I am trying to say is that "white" is associated with a LOT of oppression, even as recently as the 1960s (as far as explicit and very visible oppression and discrimination goes) here in the US. That's just how it is; that's how it's going to be. The biggest impact your ethnicity or race or nationality or WHATEVER has had on other people is what they are going to think of FIRST, and it takes getting to know individuals or educating yourself on others or other aspects of their history, or at least being open-minded and realizing that not everyone fits the stereotype or association you have before people can see past those things.

Ah ok. So because people have negative associations with my race, I must internalize and apologize for those associations? At what point is the fact that somebody is white taken out of their hands and not seen as a memetic reproduction of prejudice?

I don't fault anyone for being cautious to trust or listen to people who have systematically been the oppressors.

I as an individual know what I advocate for and who I advocate for, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize and acknowledge that people like me have been responsible for some pretty reprehensible things done to other people, and that we create these quick-judgment walls as a way of protecting ourselves from the possible "bad apples". But yeah, absolutely, we have to be open-minded enough to know that "not all _____" are the same, and to judge individuals individually.

You don't fault someone for not being able to pick out the poisonous M&M in a jar though.

"People like you"?

Ok, all bull**** arguments aside, you need to seriously consider that statement. I feel incredibly sorry for you if you think there is any similarity or unseen link between you and whites who have persecuted other races purely because you share a skin color.

There is no difference between you believing that about yourself or you believing any other negative stereotype about another race. The sooner you stop thinking of all white people as a hegemonic and many-headed "we" the better. You share no traits with historical racists, and the sooner you stop insinuating you or other whites do or feel any link to them whatsoever, the better.

Well... except America.

I've been to America, I lived there for 4 years. Race is still taboo there, and the discussions are hushed and shied away from. Come here for a few weeks, see how it compares.

I think it's so hilarious that you think this is what's happening to white people, because this is exactly what happens to black people when they are represented by blackface. Unintentially the cosplayer took everything that was interesting about that character (I don't even know who the character is!) and reduced her down to 1 pound of bad makeup, a ratty wig and an offensive looking nose. It was a bad imitation of blackness and this is why blackface/yellowface/whiteface is never a good idea.

It just comes down to that some white people want to treat the discrimination of not so long ago like it's such old news, we should forget it. And those racist monsters of the past - not their relatives, so they're wiping their hands of it. But when a minority person wants to express deep connections about something related to that same racism, the white people feel their opinion should be counted as just as equal as the black person's even though the white person said "it's just the past" to them. Wait, you don't think this kind of racism is a big deal, you think the major discrimination is purely in the past, yet you have strong opinions on how people of color whose still feel the oppression should not have an opinion on it??? Educate yourself or listen to the people who have actually researched and cared about the issue.

So now we're going to play a game of "Who's suffered more?" to see whose opinion is more legitimate? Further solidifying the trend in here that people are nothing more than the ideological categories that they embody. Gotcha.

At no point did I say anyone's opinion is more important, just that everybody should legitimately be able to express it without having their race disqualify them from participating. "Educate myself"? Gosh...I'll try. I also like your insinuation that I don't "actually care about the issue". Thanks man, it's nice when people don't assume I'm a racist ***hole that doesn't have sympathy and understanding for people outside my own race :cwink:
 
If Michonne is her favorite character, I don't really see her as racist...

I'm agreeing with this, but I also see Evo's point, if only for the fact I feel like she should know what black face is.
 
I think it looked well done but maybe she should have asked around first.
 
Asked around if painting your skin like that would cause any... issues. :p
 
Asked around if painting your skin like that would cause any... issues. :p
I don't think it created a series of comic book issues. Just angry people who think white people don't get to paint black people.

Which is absurd.
 
Asked around if painting your skin like that would cause any... issues. :p

The weird thing is I would bet if she went to other cosplayers, fans and people with African heritage and asked they probably wouldn't have told her not to do it or claim that she's racist for wanting to accurately depict an African character.
 
My coworker from Senegal thought it was in pretty poor taste and agreed she would have been able to recognize her as that character if she'd chosen not to paint herself.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQXP6TDtW0w

watch
 
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[YT]https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AslBZoDYng2pQziNTgTYMC6bvZx4?p=pearl+jam&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-703&fp=1[/YT]

Pearl jam? I don't get it. Also, were you trying to play a video?
 
How is basing things purely on race and not in context not racist as hell?
 
This clearly isn't racist; it's one individual paying homage to another individual's portrayal of a character. The only fair accusation toward the cosplayer would be naivety of mostly-bygone, tasteless practice and how the cosplay might be viewed as such.
 
All I've taken away from this thread is that America needs to calm down, and not project its messed up history and the taboos that resulted from said history onto others.
 
It's sad that you can't do it.

And I don't mean that in a 'Oh god, those people are just so unreasonable for being so sensitive' way. I mean it in a 'It sucks that there has been such a history of this kind of thing being associated with completely disrespectful and racist behaviour.'

A friend of mine at university 'blacked up' before we went to see Tropic Thunder. We met him in town, and he had given us now warning. It was INCREDIBLY awkward, despite the fact that he was just a bit 'innocent' and not the smartest guy when it came to social behaviour. He just thought it was cool to dress up for the movie, and didn't think about all the horrible looks we got walking to the cinema.

Speaking of Tropic Thunder tho... did RDJ get much **** for that?
 
It's sad that you can't do it.

And I don't mean that in a 'Oh god, those people are just so unreasonable for being so sensitive' way. I mean it in a 'It sucks that there has been such a history of this kind of thing being associated with completely disrespectful and racist behaviour.'

A friend of mine at university 'blacked up' before we went to see Tropic Thunder. We met him in town, and he had given us now warning. It was INCREDIBLY awkward, despite the fact that he was just a bit 'innocent' and not the smartest guy when it came to social behaviour. He just thought it was cool to dress up for the movie, and didn't think about all the horrible looks we got walking to the cinema.

Speaking of Tropic Thunder tho... did RDJ get much **** for that?

If by **** you mean an Academy Award nomination for the role with minimal controversy, then yeah.
 
Context plays a huge part in this type of situation. A few years back there was a famous rugby player of Fijian heritage playing in our national team, dark skinned man who wore a huge afro, he developed a big following for that afro and his physical playing style. Anyway, some young white kid who was a massive fan one day went to see him play in a match and dressed up in costume like this player, the kid wore the jersey with the name and number on the back, a big afro wig and painted his skin dark. The player noticed this kid in costume and after the match invited him and the kids dad to meet the team afterwards. The young fan got a bunch of photographs with that player and the rest of the team. When photos got published on Facebook is when the trouble began with people brandishing that kids costume as being racist, such was the backlash the player himself had to come to the kid and the fathers defence saying he wasn't offended at all and the reason he invited the kids to the dressing rooms was because he loved the costume. The thing is if a person of one race has some affinity to a character of a different race and wants to cosplay as them then isn't that a good thing? Why are we trying to place archaic mentalities to the modern world? Yeah stuffed happened decades ago that should be condemned but this situation is not someone trying to offend anyone and to belittle a race of people, she's trying to celebrate this character in the artistic way she knows best, and cosplaying is just the ultimate form of fan art.
 

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