Could BND have been done with a Married Spidey?

[stillanerd]

Best explination I've ever heard as to why OMD is a massive retcon. Take away an aspect, get a different result. So I guess that argument is over.

I was just thinking the same thing, Moraldeficiency, although I was a bit slow on the uptake.

Joe Quesada, Tom Breevort, Steve Wacker, the Braintrust--including Dan Slott--over at Marvel have stated repeatedly that "all the stories still count, except for the marriage." That Peter and MJ "still had a loving relationship and lived together but never married." Well, according to Dan Slott's own logic, all those stories from the past 20 years are no longer the same stories but different stories.

Take "Kraven's Last Hunt" in which Spider-Man, motivated by a desire to be reunited with his newlywed wife, bursts out of the grave Kraven buried him in for two weeks. But, thanks to One More Day/Brand New Day, MJ in that story was his new live-in girlfriend. So, according to Dan, it's no longer the same story and is now a different story.

Or how about Zeb Well's Tangled Web story about Jameson relationship with his father, a alcholic and abusive ex-vet. And yet Mark Waid's recent story in which he reveals a "J. Jonah Jameson Sr." as being Jameson's real father and that "David Jameson" was Jonah's stepfather. According to Dan, that's a different story too.

Or how about MJ getting pregnant during the Clone Saga? According to Joe Quesada, as far as he's concerned, that never happened. So, according to Dan, those are all different stories now.

Or what about Sins Past, in which we find out Gwen Stacy was killed because she threated to expose Norman Osborn about being the father of her twins. Doesn't that make all of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" a different story then because we didn't have that "information"?

Furthermore, Mr. Slott also says that what's done is done when it comes to stories and that we can't play this game of "what if?" Maybe, Mr. Slott, you guys at Marvel should follow your own advice because you do that all the time by going back to prior stories and "retconning" certain stories in order to make your own stories work. And that includes One More Day and Brand New Day.

So the question is then is for Mr. Slott, how can all those stories over the past 20 years still count when, by your own logic, they are no longer the same stories?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You guys are totally gonna chase Dan away completely.

 

[stillanerd]

You guys are totally gonna chase Dan away completely.

He hasn't ducked away from a challenge so far, especially from mere message board posters like us.

 

[moraldeficiency]

well put.

 

[moraldeficiency]

as long as we're civil and rational, I don't see too much of a problem. The problem is keeping the less mannered OMD haters from foaming at the mouth, which is a problem, but every side has its nuts.

 

[Themanofbat]

I was just thinking the same thing, Moraldeficiency, although I was a bit slow on the uptake.

Joe Quesada, Tom Breevort, Steve Wacker, the Braintrust--including Dan Slott--over at Marvel have stated repeatedly that "all the stories still count, except for the marriage." That Peter and MJ "still had a loving relationship and lived together but never married." Well, according to Dan Slott's own logic, all those stories from the past 20 years are no longer the same stories but different stories.

Take "Kraven's Last Hunt" in which Spider-Man, motivated by a desire to be reunited with his newlywed wife, bursts out of the grave Kraven buried him in for two weeks. But, thanks to One More Day/Brand New Day, MJ in that story was his new live-in girlfriend. So, according to Dan, it's no longer the same story and is now a different story.

Or how about Zeb Well's Tangled Web story about Jameson relationship with his father, a alcholic and abusive ex-vet. And yet Mark Waid's recent story in which he reveals a "J. Jonah Jameson Sr." as being Jameson's real father and that "David Jameson" was Jonah's stepfather. According to Dan, that's a different story too.

Or how about MJ getting pregnant during the Clone Saga? According to Joe Quesada, as far as he's concerned, that never happened. So, according to Dan, those are all different stories now.

Or what about Sins Past, in which we find out Gwen Stacy was killed because she threated to expose Norman Osborn about being the father of her twins. Doesn't that make all of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" a different story then because we didn't have that "information"?

Furthermore, Mr. Slott also says that what's done is done when it comes to stories and that we can't play this game of "what if?" Maybe, Mr. Slott, you guys at Marvel should follow your own advice because you do that all the time by going back to prior stories and "retconning" certain stories in order to make your own stories work. And that includes One More Day and Brand New Day.

So the question is then is for Mr. Slott, how can all those stories over the past 20 years still count when, by your own logic, they are no longer the same stories?

I think at the end of the day, they will count inasmuch as to what happened...

If Spider-Man encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302 (after the marriage), then he still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit... you can nitpick anuthing in that issue that is a result of Peter & MJ being married, but according to the new dogma, Spider-Man still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302... that doesn't change...

And yes, according to Dan's logic, it makes them "different"... and so what? Because Marvel says that Spider-Man encounters the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302 still happened, but upon reading the issue, it's slightly different because he was never married, but at the end of the day, he still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302, so you can see where the line" nothing has changed" is still in effect... but you guys want to argue infinite details about those 20 years worth of stories... sheesh...



Anyhoo, this is where my lover, fifthfiend will come in and make sarcastic rebuttals of what I just said...

Gosh, I love a good stalker...

Cheers...

 

[Themanofbat]

as long as we're civil and rational, I don't see too much of a problem. The problem is keeping the less mannered OMD haters from foaming at the mouth, which is a problem, but every side has its nuts.

Sometimes you feel like a but... sometimes you don't... t: t: t:

 

[Themanofbat]

But the one thing, the most important thing, I believe, is that he also has hope. The hope that, one day, when all is said and done, what he's doing will be worthwhile, that tommorrow will be better than it was yesterday, and that knowing that keeps him smiling and laughing in the face of adversity and whatever evil comes his way.

And to some extent, Mary Jane symbolizes that hope. That she can be the light at the end of the tunnel. That when the memory of his Uncle makes him remember his past, and his Aunt May reminds him of what he must protect and preserve, MJ offers him hope for a brighter future. Unlike Batman, who knows instinctively he will forever be locked into a neverending war on crime and that all chance for a normal life and happiness he sacrificed long ago for the good of others, Spider-Man still has the hope and the optimism that he can still have the happiness that a normal life provides, including marriage and a family of his own. MJ, while she didn't start out that way, has come to symbolize this when they were dating and when they were married.

I will not disagree with you on any of these fine points, because they are valid and I agree with them... Mary Jane did indeed become a symbol of hope in Peter's life....

But in my opinion, Peter has been the guy that defies all odds in spite of the fact that the situations look hopeless... so when you have that "constant hope" waiting for you in the bed at the end of the day, nothing really seems "hopeless" anymore, so you've taken that dynamic away from Spider-Man...

And I'm glad that they just didn't "kill her off" because like many of Spidey's old supporting cast members, she's a very important one, and you just can't go around killing them off because they are very difficult to replace, imo.

OMD was a terrible story, imo... but I am really enjoying the new direction thus far, and if promises to explain continuity are coming, then I'll be a very happy Spider-Man reader.

 

[Themanofbat]

What are you, six? At least try using some wit when you insult somebody.

I'm trying to respond at his level...



... besides, here's the proof that he is indeed "in love" with me...

What are you talking about? All my friendships are based on open, venomous hatred.

 

[stillanerd]

I think at the end of the day, they will count inasmuch as to what happened...

If Spider-Man encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302 (after the marriage), then he still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit... you can nitpick anuthing in that issue that is a result of Peter & MJ being married, but according to the new dogma, Spider-Man still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302... that doesn't change...

And yes, according to Dan's logic, it makes them "different"... and so what? Because Marvel says that Spider-Man encounters the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302 still happened, but upon reading the issue, it's slightly different because he was never married, but at the end of the day, he still encountered the guy who was bitten by the radioactive rabbit in ASM #302, so you can see where the line" nothing has changed" is still in effect... but you guys want to argue infinite details about those 20 years worth of stories... sheesh...

Ah, but that's the thing TMOB. The topic is "Could Brand New Day have been done with a Married Spidey?" Dan Slott's own response was:

Quick answer: No.

Long answer: No, but...
...like any comic, you can ask hypothetical questions like:
If they did "x" this way, then why couldn't they have done "y" instead?

And you can ask questions like that till you're blue in the face. But at the end of the day, every story is done a specific way for a specific reason-- and if you're going to keep throwing one hypothetical question after the other-- "Could you tell a story where Captain America was secretly Daredevil's Great Grampa from the war?" "Could you tell a story where Werewolf by Night was actually a mutant?" "Could you tell a story where Hulk has been super-smart all along and playing us for suckers?" Well, sure you can. And that's called fanfic.

So, as Moraldeficiency pointedly observed, that's what One More Day and Brand New Day themselves have done. They changed "one little thing" to Peter and MJ being a married couple to a live-in couple. So according to Dan Slott, that single change is enough to make them different stories rather than the same stories. By his own definition, One More Day and Brand New Day ARE essentially "fanfics."

Anyhoo, this is where my lover, fifthfiend will come in and make sarcastic rebuttals of what I just said...

Gosh, I love a good stalker...

Cheers...

t:

 

[stillanerd]

I will not disagree with you on any of these fine points, because they are valid and I agree with them... Mary Jane did indeed become a symbol of hope in Peter's life....

But in my opinion, Peter has been the guy that defies all odds in spite of the fact that the situations look hopeless... so when you have that "constant hope" waiting for you in the bed at the end of the day, nothing really seems "hopeless" anymore, so you've taken that dynamic away from Spider-Man...

And I'm glad that they just didn't "kill her off" because like many of Spidey's old supporting cast members, she's a very important one, and you just can't go around killing them off because they are very difficult to replace, imo.

OMD was a terrible story, imo... but I am really enjoying the new direction thus far, and if promises to explain continuity are coming, then I'll be a very happy Spider-Man reader.

Understood. I'm just saying that Spider-Man's world can't be completely hopeless and he should be able to win once in awhile. Of course, an ideal would be that if he's successful in his life as Peter Parker, then his life as Spider-Man should go through hell. And if he's more successful as Spider-Man, then his life as Peter Parker ends up going to the dogs.

And yeah, although I couldn't stand OMD, either. But also agree it was wise for Marvel not to kill off MJ. After all, look at what happened when Mackie tried to do that during the reboot years.

 

[fifthfiend]

Anyhoo, this is where my lover, fifthfiend will come in and make sarcastic rebuttals of what I just said...

Gosh, I love a good stalker...

Oh man so I came back to this thread to find out you're still in here talking about me? But no the best part

... besides, here's the proof that he is indeed "in love" with me...

is where you're apparently going through my posts in every other forum here, just so you know what I'm up tot:! Wow Mobbles, projection much? (helpful link in case those "big words" are still giving you problems.)

Anyway Corp said I have to leave you alone from now on because I guess I was hurting your little-girl feelings or something. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eesh, I try to keep the peace and this is the thanks I get?

 

[Themanofbat]

Oh man so I came back to this thread to find out you're still in here talking about me?

Maybe I have a crush on you...

But no the best part

is where you're apparently going through my posts in every other forum here, just so you know what I'm up tot:! Wow Mobbles, projection much? (helpful link in case those "big words" are still giving you problems.)

Truth be told, I'm curious to fan reaction of RIP and just came across that post... I hope this doesn't change your lust for me.

Anyway Corp said I have to leave you alone from now on because I guess I was hurting your little-girl feelings or something. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

I think you're making Corps' little girl feelings a bit envious... my little girl feelings are fine.

But you're right... our fling was fun.

Cheers...

 

[Themanofbat]

Eesh, I try to keep the peace and this is the thanks I get?

I still love you.

Our little girl feelings just gives that much more in common...

 

[random_havoc]

You two frighten me.

 

[Themanofbat]

You two frighten me.

It's your little girl feelings that are wreaking havok with your head...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

What's Alex Summers doing in his head?

 

[Themanofbat]

What's Alex Summers doing in his head?

t: t: t:

 

[fifthfiend]

Eesh, I try to keep the peace and this is the thanks I get?

You're an internet forum moderator; I assumed that feeding your undoubtedly relentless masochism was what you'd consider thanks.

 

[kguillou]

Jesus, i was about to enter the conversation but it looks brutal around here.t:

 

[farmernudie]

My personal two cents...

I am just reading this entire thread....so i am just catching up on it.

I agree with what others said, that even with Dan's own opinion and definition...he is inadvertantly agreeing with the point that this reboot makes the past twenty years of stories "different" ones.

They are no longer the same.

I've pointed out in many other posts many SPECIFICS that could NOT have happened the same, and NO LONGER make LOGICAL SENSE in this alternate spidey world created by a deal between the devil and Pete.

I know the nay-sayers have never have a true anseer to even ONE of them...except to WAIT AND SEE....and IT"S MAGIC.

Or...the third, which is most intellectually insulting is...IT"S ALL THE SAME.

Joe himself in one quote said he wanted Spidey to be more like Charlie Brown.

He is now.

Instead of always missing the football....he will alsways miss the girl now.

Woowee.

There will be no follow up to their own METHOD of REBOOT.

Dan, will you write the story where Aunt May finds out she owes her life to Satan??????

Why has NO ONE on the entire planet commented in ANY issue anywhere about their parital mindwipes and memory gaps?? We've got a planet full of swiss cheesed, brain damged heroes, villians, and civilians. ANd no one cares about their mental issues.

How did Avengers Tower happen?

Do all the avengers have memories of blurry faced old ladies and blurry faced girl friends and or wives or whatever we now say that happened or didn't happen??

I mean, if the reboot writing (not Dan's) wasn't so sloppy...there would be no need to PATCH THE JEANS that are now so heavily ripped with holes everywhere.

The reboot was lazy in the METHOD....it was MAGICAL WHITE OUT.
An agenda, an editorial mandate...not a "story".

I commend the team for getting issues out on time. THat does indeed take work.

The thing is...i am a long time CUSTOMER...fromt he start, of spidey comics...of all titles. My boxes and boxes take up lots space let me tell you!

However, the CUSTOMER is suddenly wrong here, and also insulted. (Not by Dan) but by some others since this DEVISIVE reboot took place.

There are many writers, high ups, that can't even ACKNOWLEDGE our OPINION or POINTS....US...the LOYAL CUSOTMERS.

FACT IS...this would be SO VERY PROFITABLE if they hadn't made it DEVISIVE. The split their customer base...and then told fans that their opinions don't count if ....A) We own computers and know how to type ONLINE....and B.) We are catagorized of our sexual gay issue stances based upon our support of the reboot.

HAs even ONE person shot down these statements?? Not that i know of.

Do they acknowledge much of anything we say? Not really.

I felt Stillanerd made SOUND, logical points....only to be shot down, per say, by Dan, (who i think is great,... and respect him for posting nicely.)

However, i personally felt all his actual points could EASILY be used on our side of the coin too.

 

[javi1024]

^that felt more like 10 or 20 cents, farmer, but nevertheless i agree with what you say.

 

[stillanerd]

I felt Stillanerd made SOUND, logical points....only to be shot down, per say, by Dan, (who i think is great,... and respect him for posting nicely.)

However, i personally felt all his actual points could EASILY be used on our side of the coin too.

Yeah, Farmer, I will admit that Mr. Slott made some pretty cogent, and very cordial, counter-arguments to my points and backed them up quite well--and since he is the writer for Amazing Spider-Man, he does have a distinct advantage. However, even though some of the stories might require Spider-Man to be single in order to work, it still could be argued that not every single story we've gotten out of Brand New Day demanded Spider-Man had to be single for those stories to work. For example, the Flash Thompson in Iraq story could have easily been told regardless of Peter's marital status. Same goes for Wells Punisher team-up one shot.

Also, while he has a point about changing details of a story could make it a different story, does that apply in every case? What about adaptations of various other stories? How many versions of Shakespeare's plays and various films of novels and remakes have there been? Are those, by definition, different stories even though they use, for the most part, the same characters, plots, and themes. And, like moraldeficiency, myself, and other later point out, doesn't Mr. Slott's own argument undermine One More Day and Brand New Day, because it "changed" key details of past stories, as nothing more than "fanfic" according to his definition of "fanfic"?

 

[Themanofbat]

Again, using the "Spider-Man encounters a guy bitten by radioactive rabbit" argument, the marital status doesn't affect the fact that Spider-Man encountered a guy bitten by radioactive rabbit... yes, the story is "different", but yet the same...

It comes down to semantics, and you guys are going to the nth degree with the "nothing changes" comment... yes, using Dan's argument, the stories are "different", but the main facts of the story are the villains that Spidey fought and that he was living with Mary Jane... those main facets of the story are basically the same, which is what Marvel means... sheesh... it's like arguing with your wife... you know you'll never win because they always have something to counter with, no matter how ridiculous you may deem it to be...



And this is not some pathetic bad comment against wives/women in general (I just know that someone will jump all over me for this... )... I love my wife, but at times, like any normal couple, we get into disagreements... most times over the silliest of things... similarly to what's happening in this very thread.