Cyclops fans we lost, my 2 cents

[Kurosawa]

Wolverine is clearly the main character in the movies and they clearly want the audience to follow his story.

That's true. How about that?

Which means they're not movies about a team, they're movies about an individual and the team is just part of his story.

Nope, that's just your interpretation of things. I don't see Wolverine seeking to control the team at all.

He didn't want to be there at first, but once he's there he definately does not want to take orders from Scott. That's in character-he's been an ******* in the comics from day one-but what makes X3 suck is that he actually DOES get his wish. Why? BECAUSE THEY KILL CYCLOPS!

These are ensemble films. You care about the characters if you like them. Hell, even Wolverine hasn't really been developed that much. Simple fact is, the writers simply do not have time to "develop" every single one of them. These are story-driven films, not so much character-driven ones. Are you still pretending that nothing about Scott has been explored?

Scott has no background given, no discussions of who he is or what he is about. He's presented as nothing byt a preppie boyscout who kisses Xavier's ass. This of course makes him less appealing to the audience than the tough, bad-ass Wolverine.

Is this similar to the way Xavier is the one everyone wants to see Magneto overcome because he's an obstacle? Wow.

The difference being that Magneto is a villian. The audience shouldn't be manipulated into disliking Scott. But there's lots of little touches (the preppy clothes, the ass-kissing attitude, the complete ineptitude, N'Sync on the car radio) that subtly reminds the audience...Cyclops is a loser and a dick.

-Was instrumental in saving Wolverine and Rogue.
-Saved Jean
-Planned the X-Men's strike on Liberty Island
-Led the X-Men into battle
-Spotted the method of Magneto's threat
-Got rid of Sabertooth via optic blasts
-Was instrumental in saving the day at Liberty Island
-Was the bigger man in numerous confrontations with Wolverine
-Expressed a desire to carry on if Xavier was taken out of action
-Provided emotional support to Jean when she was distressed in X2
I don't consider that "hardly doing anything right".

Yet with all of that, many people came off with the attitude that he was a punk and a loser. Why? Because of all his screw-ups, which were much more noticable.

Of course Wolverine kicks tons of ass. That's what he does. Are you whining because Scott hasn't had as many two-minute long fight scenes? That's not Scott's character. Scott blasts things, and figures things out. Wolverine kicks ass.

**** Wolverine. The only scene I want to see with him is a 20 minute torture sequence followed by his bloody death and dismemberment.

"Wolverine always wins"? Odd, I seem to remember that in X-MEN,he got his ass handed to him by Sabertooth, Magneto AND Mystique, effectively LOSING in each confrontation. I could be wrong, though. You could have actually watched these movies and remembered them accurately. Doubt it though. Hmm, seems like you're wrong. Again.

But he won in the rematches except against Magneto, who it takes a team to beat.

Weak in the field how? Examples please? Are you referring to when he gives strong orders without a moment' shesitation like "Storm, fry him", and even smacks down Wolverine's ideas about things, and makes the final call on his own to blast the machine? Or when he questions his commander, Xavier? Of his calm under pressure? Doesn't strike me as "weak", to me.

You mean stupid orders like "Storm, fry him" when their inside a huge metal conductor. He comes off like the coach's son who's given command just because he sucks up. He's not given any respect at all.
Which "idiotic decisions" has he made? And be specific, please.

So he excites her. As I said before, god forbid a redblooded woman is excited by a handsome, rugged man. And a woman sticking with a man she loves because he is dependable is bad, because...

You are such an apologist that it's not even funny. Anyone knows those scenes make Scott look like less of a man than Wolverine.

Why? Because there's no sex scene between Jean and Scott? So there couldn't be? Just because you don't see any? You're an idiot, friend. With a complete lack of imagination.

There hasn't been any such scenes, have there? And guess what, smart-ass, there WON'T be any now because your LORD and MASTER Tom Rothman f'n KILLED CYclops off in this movie that you're kissing the ass of, like a good little slave. Imagine THAT, punk.

Oh, no. I'm being cursed at. Know why I made that comment? Because with NO INDICATION that I have any scorn or hatred for the character of Cyclops, you choose to assume I do, and outright called me a liar in the process. I tire of your ignorance. People like you make this world dumber.

You accept them killing off the character in X3 without question. That alone shows me disrespect. No other Cyclops fan is rolling over and taking it like you are. So your respect for the character cannot be that great, now can it? And as long as you make personal insults, I'm happy to throw them right back at you. All I know is that if the world was made up of people like you, we'd still be British Colonies. Because you just take crap and in fact you defend the establishment.

You could, but you'd be wrong. I'm not sitting here calling you a liar based on things you haven't said. I'm not blindly accepting and defending what the studio does. I'm explaining it. There is a huge difference. I'm defending the writers, yes. Writing is not easy.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, you ARE defending it blindly!!! And THEN you claim to be a Cyclops fan?? You are a tool. A complete and total tool.

Then quit acting like they are. There are more important thingsin life. Like learning to interpret things in context without extreme bias. And learning that the world isn't always black and white.

If they're so unimportant, they why are you making extremenly long posts defending them? If it doesn't matter so much to you, then why are you spending all this time making excuses for them? And never tell me how to live my life. I'll live it however I damn well please.

He has far more screentime than Wedge, and more dramatic screentime, too, for the most part. Definitely in Lando realm. I love how you think getting your ass kicked or captured is neccessarily a bad thing for a character. It's called "conflict". Look it up.

Nowhere near as good screentime as Lando. Not even close. Probably about like Piett.

This isn't STAR WARS, though, is it? Not remotely the same writing approach. What's your point? That Cyclops and Wolverine could have been balanced better? I agree. They could have been (and there would have been some tradeoff, either less Magneto, or less Xavier, or no Storm or something along those lines). But simply because it could have been done better is no reason to piss all over what HAS been done with Cyclops.

The trade off would have been less Wolverine, not less Storm, Xavier or Magneto. Not everything has to be done to serve the almighty Wolverine, you know.

Why? If anything, it makes him look stronger, because he doesn't whine about it or fight Wolverine over it. Should I panic when my girlfriend thinks an attractive man is attractive? Should I act like a baby and go fight him because I'm insecure about the situation? It's not like Jean left him for Wolverine. There's no cuckolding or anything along those lines.

Him standing there and just letting it happen makes him look weak. It's like he doesn't stand up for himself because he knows he'll lose. And that's why the audience doesn't respect him.

And a love letter to fans of THE X-MEN.

Oh, God, now THAT is rich!!!!!!! A love letter to fans of ONE X-Man-Wolverine.

Why? Details, please. Though I think I've already pointed out why he's competent. YOU JUST COMPLETELY IGNORE IT BECAUSE IT INVALIDATES YOUR ARGUMENT. Classic fanboy bickering strategy.

Apologist idiot. You see what your masters at FOX want you to see.

True, except in the development of his and Jean Grey's relationship, and the set up it provides for X3. And his scenes rock.

What few scenes he had in X2 did very little for him. Even on his big scene after Jean died, the camera is 100% on who? We know who.

A fan who doesn't see everything in "I want it this way, so it should be this way". A fan who knows a damn sight more than you do about writing, and about what happened behind the scenes at FOX and WB during X3/SUPERMAN RETURNS.

I doubt you know more than I do about writing. And you damn sure don't know more than I do about comics. But nice try, boy.

It's also in line with what has happened in the comics in the various Phoenix stories.

Except that the male lead is dead and replaced with his rival. And you actually defend that. Pathetic.

So are superheroes and villains and dealing with powers as curses/gifts. So is life, at this point. What's your point?

That's a lame comeback. But anything to defend your masters, I suppose.

So...he's "weak" because "he doesn't get payback" (when it's not possible because he's bothering to save Jean's life and focus on the mission rather than go hunt Toad (who is already dead/injured by Storm) and he's more interested in saving Jean and joining the X-Men again (and Wolverine has dispatched Deathstrike). WOW. So...unless you get payback...you're weak? That weak-ass Jesus. What the hell was he thinking, turning the other cheek and not seeking out revenge at every turn? Maybe, just maybe, Cyclops isn't interested in payback...he's interested in getting the job done.

He's weak because he's beaten so easily in the first place.

Wait...Wolverine never gets payback EITHER.

No, because most of the time he wins in the first place. But whenever's he's personally beaten, he comes back and wins. Only Magneto gets much respect against him, but even the dumbed down movie audiences know he has no shot vs Magneto.

Why is it stupid thinking? They are in a tight spot, and it stops Magneto's plan, and btw, they're not guaranteed to die. He says "Fry him", not "fry the statue", and Storm used localized lightning on Sabertooth earlier in the film. So, be specific, what's stupid about it? What would YOU do in that situation? I know what I'd do. Open my eyes and BLAST at the sound of Magneto's voice. So no fair taking that one. What would you do?

That scene was written for the express reason of making it clear that Cyclops was stupid and inept. First thing should have been to try to free the entire team.

Oh no. A mutant is visible in public. I don't recall it being an issue.

He blew their cover, which made him come off as inept.

Toad kicked everyone's ass. Via surprise. What's your point? You know what I DID see? Cyclops GETTING UP from Toad's attack, blasting, and ready to go, and saving his friend/lover.

Cyke getting beat would be okay if he ever won.

See, you just ASSUME the team would have been fried. That's not neccessarily the case. Again, Storm had used localized lightning on Sabertooth. Just because Magneto implies it doesn't make it true.

Yeah and that's why that line was in the script? Oh, but wait, i thought you knew more about writing than me.

Deathstrike. DEATHSTRIKE. DEATHSTRIKE! Who handed WOLVERINE his ass until he fought dirty.

And if he had given her a decnet fight, and THEN Wolverine would have had to fight dirty to beat her, this would be the audience's reaction: damn, she beat Cyclops, and the only reason Wolverine beat her was because he cheated and fought dirty. SO let's see, if they'd let Cyke put up a good fight, it would have 1) made Cyke look good. 2) Made Deathstryke look even better because she managed to beat Cyke aND 3) Made Wolverine look clever and resourceful. So all three characters could have benefited. See? THAT'S how you write such a sequence-so the earlier scene pays off later. Oh, but wait, you know SOOOOO much about writing.

You still haven't given me a single valid reason why. Not one. "Failing temporarily" or "not being perfect" does not equal incompetent. Otherwise, every single CHARACTER in these films would be incompetent. And in every OTHER film. It's called CONFLICT. Perfect characters are BORING.

You're right-Wolverine is pretty boring. I agree.

Impossible to stop? Then how does he get stopped THREE TIMES in X-MEN?

And he comes right back. Which is okay, it is his character. I have less of a problem with how they've portrayed Wolvering and more of a problem with the way all the other characters have suffered because way too much of the focus has been on him.

Uh, ditto Cyclops, who gets back up after Toad's attack. And he shakes off mind control pretty fast.

Still makes him look bad.

 

[x-dvn]

wow

 

[Kurosawa]

And when he infiltrates Liberty Island in a jet without the X-Men being detected by patrols? When he saves Jean? Spots the machine? Comes up with the best PLAN to stop the machine? These are SUCCESSES.

Apparently it's lost on you that Jean and Storm helped, too. As in "teamwork". In the final sequence, Wolverine is not the only reason for success. It is Cyclops who essentially tells Wolverine his plan sucks, and then comes up with the plan that works.



I would call destroying a dam with just the snapback from your optic blasts ptretty competent. I would also call dispatching several guards competent. He did fail once in X2, when he was captured and brainwashed. However, he succeeded as a character in his arc with Jean, and he hasn't been portrayed as an incompetent character overall.

Actually he beat up a guard and shot a guard. Who cares if he had to push for the scene? It's in the movie. For someone who doesn't want "politics" to affect his view of things, you're certainly letting them when it suits you.
I'm still waiting for you to tell me if Xavier is incompetent because he got gassed.

Wow, two whole guards.

No, if I truly loved the character, I would PREFER something else. Which I do. I would love to see Scott get more screentime in X3, and see his arc with Jean/Phoenix resolved in a better way. There is no really "unacceptable" aspect to me when it comes to adaptions, within reason. As long as the characters stay in character and resemble themselves, I can handle change to the mythos.
If YOU really found it unacceptable, you'd do something about it, like firebomb FOX or sabotage X3's release. Otherwise, in a way, you're kind of accepting it, aren't you?

Oh good lord. I'm just a pissed off comic book fan, not a freaking terrorist. All I can do is ***** and kevetch.

I HAVE a problem with that aspect of it. But I'm still going to enjoy the movie, and Marsden's role in it, because there are lots of other fantastic elements in X3 besides Cyclops part, and I can't sit there and ***** about "what should have been" when I have no control over it. Most people aren't as forgiving as I am. I.E, most people are more anal. And most people are sheep, and afraid to have a differing opinion on the Cyclops situation.

The sheepish way is to just accept it and still support the movie. The character matters too much to me. I'd be so pissed after his death that the rest of the movie couldn't make up for it.

One of most rushed movies ever done? Could you BE any more hyperbolic? Do you know how long it took Joel Schumacher to make TIGERLAND? PHONE BOOTH? X3 may have been rushed, but they had time to make a good film. And they appear to have done so. They wanted to get started, in part because they didn't want to compete with SUPERMAN RETURNS and SPIDER-MAN 3 (wise, wise decisions on both counts), and in part because it had been several years since X2, and they felt they might be losing their window for a sequel. This proposed "feud" with SUPERMAN RETURNS and Singer is just window dressing for fan and critical complaints. It has no real truth to it beyond the basics: Singer left as development was beginning, and they needed a new director to replace him. Had Singer been there, X3 would have been coming this Summer anyway, from what I hear.

Comparing this movie to Schumacher movies is a very good comparision.

No, it proves that they have chosen not to make that a focal point of their mythology. There are plenty of examples of how they HAVE shown respect for the comics and comics fans.

Yes, they've shown tons of respect to Wolverine comics and his fans.

Yes, he's the main character of this franchise. It's been that way for two films, and will be that way for three? What's your point? That it should have been different? It WASN'T. And ISN'T. And whining about it is not going to change that. Every movie has main and supporting characters. Even the comic books put characters in supporting roles, depending on the storyline. Wolverine, Xavier, and Magneto have made fantastic main characters with much to offer cinematically.

It shouldn't have ever been that way. And I hate Wolverine with a passion personally. He's my most hated character of all time. See, I actually remember the X-Men BEFORE Wolverine. When it was a cult comic, not a commercial comic.

But you can't glean similar meaning from Cyclops's scenes. This I don't particularly understand.

Because I felt that Nightcrawler was written with more respect than Cyclops.

Cyclops HAS been accurate to his comic book self, in the context of a more realistic movie. What do you want to see that you haven't seen elements of?

How about a scene or two regarding his background? Just a few short dialogue scenes referecing the loss of his parents and his situation in the orphanage would do a lot for the character. We as comic fans know it, but movie audiences have no idea why Scott is the way he is. If they knew just a little about him, they'd care more. And it wouldn't eat up that much screentime. I think Storm could use that as well.

Rogue best represents the concept of power being a curse or gift, depending on how you deal with it. She has an arc with Bobby, and clearly an arc with Wolverine. Bobby represents the decision to use powers for good, rather than evil, or not using them at all, despite it being easier to do so. Pyro is his foil, and represents the opposite, the decision to hate because of an inability to achieve a certain lifestyle. Bobby has an arc with Rogue, and in X3 clearly has more to do, and an arc with Kitty. He also has an arc with Pyro, and we saw a bit of his home life and feelings on the school, allowing a glimpse into the mutant lifestyle. He's far more than "Wolverine's sidekick".

They're all Wolverine sidekicks, but it has helped them in getting screentime and development.

Jean represents the concept of evolution/power and the curse/gift of it in the franchise. She has done far more than be "the love interest".

Yeah, she serves two purposes. She and Scott should have been the focal point of X3.

Storm has been power personified in X-MEN and X2. The nature of fear/anger and their intersection with bias and bigotry has been explored through her character.

Yeah, they explored Storm so much that Halle threatened to walk unless she got more screentime.

He has been, yes. That doesn'tmean he hasn't been used to explore any concepts.

But the point is that Scott shouldn't be a background character.

I think they're eprobably about equal. Mystique had hardly any screentime in X-MEN, and Scott had much more in X-MEN. I wouldn't remotely call Mystique's screentime better. As of X2, she had yet to have a truly emotional scene, whereas Scott had several, and his power usage was far more impressive.

The X-Men's leader should not have the same amount of screentime as the villians top henchwoman.

I never said that wasn't the case. Absolutely some characters are being given less screentime and development because Wolverine has so much. Ditto Magneto's screentime in each film having a same effect. And Xavier's. And Jean's, come to think of it. I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up, as this is not a point I've ever contended, and the point you've quoted me saying has nothing to do with this concept.

The fact that you defend it is what I have a problem with.

I made a simple statement about the nature of the word "explore". I never said anything about the importance of Cyclops and Scarecrow. I wasn't comparing them.

I suppose this is similar to my Han/Luke analogy. Except my analogy was dealing with the characters personalities.

 

[taintedFB]

because her sunconcious mind is not giving him the full whack, so she in reality allows him top kill her, thereby making a similar (though not identical) noble and heroic sacrifice to the one she made in the Original story

If this is the case, then Cyclops is alive somewhere around Alkali Lake.

 

[logansoldcigar]

Why? when she is initially resurrected, she doesnt resaise what she is to become. later on, she knows what she is becoming, and in a moment when her old self asserts control, she allows herself to be killed.its still heroic, and its still noble.

 

[logansoldcigar]

Kurosawa, i have to ask this:
you remember Xmen before wolverine, and yet "And I hate Wolverine with a passion personally" ..........a fictional character?
and surely you dont seriously believe that David Hayter, Dan Harris, Michael Doherty , Joss Whedon and all the others that have been involved in the writing of these movies have been all been out to make cyclops look bad in some secret conspiracy? Cos if you do, and you are as old as you are saying, then you really ought to start acting your age, not your shoe size

 

[Kurosawa]

Kurosawa, i have to ask this:
you remember Xmen before wolverine, and yet "And I hate Wolverine with a passion personally" ..........a fictional character?
and surely you dont seriously believe that David Hayter, Dan Harris, Michael Doherty , Joss Whedon and all the others that have been involved in the writing of these movies have been all been out to make cyclops look bad in some secret conspiracy? Cos if you do, and you are as old as you are saying, then you really ought to start acting your age, not your shoe size

I've thought Wolverine was a crap character since Hulk #181. I started really disliking him because they killed Thunderbird and not him in Uncanny X-Men #95. Thunderbird was the first (of many) characters to suffer so they could build up Wolverine. It's not JUST because of Cyclops I hate Wolverine. Almost every MArvel character he's come in contact with, he's been made to look superior to-Daredevil, Punisher, Captain America, etc. And of course almost all of the female Marvel characters have wanted him or have slept with him. He was a "Gary Stu" character for John Byrne, and he's become the single most overrated character of all time. Batman had 50+ years of history before DC started ramming him down everyone's throat. And at least until Post-Crisis, he was portrayed as equal to but not superior to all the other heroes.

 

[ginny_weasley]

If this is the case, then Cyclops is alive somewhere around Alkali Lake.

Yeah I thought of that too....

If Cyke is dead, I guess that means deep down Jean didn't love him as much as Wolverine....

 

[-Æ-]

Thats the writers fault for not making Cyclops the character he is supposed to be in the Xmen film franchise. They made the decesion to put him in the foreground behind many characters. Making him whine, more than any damn thing. Cyclops showed no true leadership abilities throughout the whole franchise. Now he dies, and is forgot in the process.

 

[ShadesOfRedd]

Yeah I thought of that too....

If Cyke is dead, I guess that means deep down Jean didn't love him as much as Wolverine....

That thought makes me want to puke.

 

[ginny_weasley]

That thought makes me want to puke.

Yeah, I think I'll buy a popcorn at the movies so I can vomit in it during the funeral scene when Storm is suddenly deemed Xavier's heir and Cyke is forgotten, or when Wolverine gets to take out Jean at the end, or...

...better yet, I'll just buy two or three popcorns.

 

[Kurosawa]

Thats the writers fault for not making Cyclops the character he is supposed to be in the Xmen film franchise. They made the decesion to put him in the foreground behind many characters. Making him whine, more than any damn thing. Cyclops showed no true leadership abilities throughout the whole franchise. Now he dies, and is forgot in the process.

Yeah-they made him pretty inept from the get-go. And that's partially Singer's fault.

 

[Azrael23]

ROTFLMAO how can you ppl argue with so many quotations like that it's insane!!

Exactly! why do you think I ceased even responding to him.
Not only that but he combined both discusions in one post.
I don't have the time or the will to debate with anyone that doesn't
listen to any reason, and he can't look at anything objectively so there is
no further point in taking this discusion any further. He wants someone to provide proof on how Wolverine is overrated, which is actually such a ridiculous request since its as clear as day, even if I or anyone else felt like elaborating and showing proof as to why and how Wolverine is overrated, he would never accept it, so there is no real reason to bother.

How or why would anyone can read all of that is beyond me, especially
because he wants to rationalize why its okay to give Wolverine more
screen time or why he feels that Cyclops got his due. It gets pointless after
that, so let him keep his own opinion and mindset.

 

[taintedFB]

My thoughts...

I don't think Jean holds back to allow Logan to kill her. Although it does seem like they are exaggerating Logan's powers by allowing him to withstand Phoenix's powers.

AND I think the reason she wants to die is because of what she did to Scott more than anything else. I think if she does ALLOW Logan to kill her, its not because their love brought her back. She seems to teeter back and forth throughout the film without reason. And if Logan was able to save her, she wouldn't have still wanted to die and he would have thought he'd reached her. I think their relationship is still one sided, and deep down it looks like Jean is still reeling and grief stricken over Scott. (In the scene in her house, she looks like she's devastated and has been crying)

I STILL think that since we don't actually see his death on camera, there is definitely MYSTERY there. Even that where's Scott clip...creepy, disturbed, and mysterious.

Maybe his absence and presumed death is a set-up for X4 and there is a post credits scene that will show he survived. It would be stupid for the studio to bring back Xavier, whose story really has played out, and we've seen dissintegrate before our eyes, yet leave Scott's mysterious disappearance as his FINAL death.

Either way, it seems to have been left ope for him to return, should there be a sequel.

 

[ginny_weasley]

My thoughts...

I don't think Jean holds back to allow Logan to kill her. Although it does seem like they are exaggerating Logan's powers by allowing him to withstand Phoenix's powers.

AND I think the reason she wants to die is because of what she did to Scott more than anything else. I think if she does ALLOW Logan to kill her, its not because their love brought her back. She seems to teeter back and forth throughout the film without reason. And if Logan was able to save her, she wouldn't have still wanted to die and he would have thought he'd reached her. I think their relationship is still one sided, and deep down it looks like Jean is still reeling and grief stricken over Scott. (In the scene in her house, she looks like she's devastated and has been crying).

I agree

While Logan taking out Phoenix based on his ability to overpower her doesn't do proper justice to her powers, it does do some justice to the love triangle: Wolverine, despite his attempts, cannot reach Jean. In the comics, Scott was able to get through to her enough to bring her out of her persona; her brief lapse into sanity allowed her to sacrifice herself when she felt the Dark Phoenix returning. Logan can't replace Cyke in this regard, and that's why he is forced to kill her.

 

[Kurosawa]

I agree

While Logan taking out Phoenix based on his ability to overpower her doesn't do proper justice to her powers, it does do some justice to the love triangle: Wolverine, despite his attempts, cannot reach Jean. In the comics, Scott was able to get through to her enough to bring her out of her persona; her brief lapse into sanity allowed her to sacrifice herself when she felt the Dark Phoenix returning. Logan can't replace Cyke in this regard, and that's why he is forced to kill her.

Yeah, although the fact that he beats and kills her after she takes out almost eveybody else just sends the message that Wolverine>all other characters. The only person who should have been able to beat Phoenix is Jean herself.

 

[taintedFB]

True, she could have created a telekinetic cocoon to block Logan's claws.

In the end, Logan couldn't save her. And after what she thought she did to Scott, she WANTED to die. That's real love.

 

[SilentType]

Exactly! why do you think I ceased even responding to him.
Not only that but he combined both discusions in one post.
I don't have the time or the will to debate with anyone that doesn't
listen to any reason, and he can't look at anything objectively so there is
no further point in taking this discusion any further. He wants someone to provide proof on how Wolverine is overrated, which is actually such a ridiculous request since its as clear as day, even if I or anyone else felt like elaborating and showing proof as to why and how Wolverine is overrated, he would never accept it, so there is no real reason to bother.
How or why would anyone can read all of that is beyond me, especially
because he wants to rationalize why its okay to give Wolverine more
screen time or why he feels that Cyclops got his due. It gets pointless after
that, so let him keep his own opinion and mindset.

Shut it! It's Guardball and that is how it works! If you don't have the balls for it, go home to your mommy!


BTW:
Guardball Recap!
After somewhat of a false start on page 9, this game really got going on page 12 with a simple 1 point post by Guard. A short volley of 1 point posts between Guard and Kuro resulted in a score of Guard 3, Kuro 2.
Azrael came onto the board with one point, wich was returned by Guard for the first 2 point score of this match. Azrael returned with a two pointer of his own.
After a timid one point post by Kuro, Guard showed why he is champion with a duel return worth 4 points!
After a quick back and forth between Guard and Kuro, the scores stood at:
Guard 11
Kuro 6
Azrael 2

Azrael stunned everybody with a solid 3 pointer.
Guard responded with a huge 5 point post, followed by Kuro’s big 4.

Following a few scoreless pages, Guard threw a one-two punch of 3 point posts, while Kuro countered with a 4-2 split.

Scores stand at:
Guard-22
Kuro-16
Azrael-5

 

[ginny_weasley]

Yeah, although the fact that he beats and kills her after she takes out almost eveybody else just sends the message that Wolverine>all other characters. The only person who should have been able to beat Phoenix is Jean herself.

Haha, true.

It just shows that there is something inherently wrong with this resolution. Wolverine taking out Jean can never be done in true spirit to the source material. If he gets through to her, it diminishes Cyke's unique connection; if he doesn't and beats her via force, he's suddenly more powerful than Phoenix.

 

[taintedFB]

Good point, Ginny.

Maybe she does hold back her powers to allow him to kill her. And she wants to die and be with Scott. Because she can't live with what she's done. And life ain't worth livin' without the love of your life.

Sorry, Logan. No love for you.

 

[Azrael23]

Shut it! It's Guardball and that is how it works! If you don't have the balls for it, go home to your mommy!


BTW:
Guardball Recap!
After somewhat of a false start on page 9, this game really got going on page 12 with a simple 1 point post by Guard. A short volley of 1 point posts between Guard and Kuro resulted in a score of Guard 3, Kuro 2.
Azrael came onto the board with one point, wich was returned by Guard for the first 2 point score of this match. Azrael returned with a two pointer of his own.
After a timid one point post by Kuro, Guard showed why he is champion with a duel return worth 4 points!
After a quick back and forth between Guard and Kuro, the scores stood at:
Guard 11
Kuro 6
Azrael 2

Azrael stunned everybody with a solid 3 pointer.
Guard responded with a huge 5 point post, followed by Kuro’s big 4.

Following a few scoreless pages, Guard threw a one-two punch of 3 point posts, while Kuro countered with a 4-2 split.

Scores stand at:
Guard-22
Kuro-16
Azrael-5

Well its clear that you have nothing better to do with your time other than
come to the aid of your buddy and keep tally over forum discussions. By
your response I guess I wouldn't be wrong in assuming you are young, possibly
in high school.

 

[SilentType]

Well its clear that you have nothing better to do with your time other than
come to the aid of your buddy and keep tally over forum discussions. By
your response I guess I wouldn't be wrong in assuming you are young, possibly
in high school.

WTF? Aid of my buddy? Guardball a satirical look at the pointlessness of the huge rambling round and round discussions that never get resolved. You obviously have no eye for satire. I usually don't have to SPELL IT OUT for people.

 

[The Guard]

Guard, it seems like the crux of your arguments is that because the creators have done a crappy, elementary jop of characterization so far, that we shouldn't blame them now... really?

"Crappy" is in the eye of the beholder. The X-Men films have had better characterization moments and more depth than about ninety percent of the films I've ever seen. That they have not managed to convey every aspect of the comic book mythos is hardly a strike against them. They've shown a lot.
Think they've done a poor job? I challenge you to write an X-Men script with 15 mutant characters and several human ones that makes sense and doesn't feel incredibly forced or cliche-ridden and cheese-laden. We'll see how well you do at it. It's not easy to balance or attempt to balance 18 characters in a comic book story. It's just not. Should you accept this challenge, you will have three months to complete it. Seems like a fair amount of time.

Imagine if Joshua was given top billing in the OT because he kicked more ass than Moses, or if Lancelot more than Arthur... it's the same paradigm...

Could you please, please, please stop making such ****ty, pointless analogies as if I somehow don't get why you're upset? You repeat yourself so often it's impossible not to understand your point of view. I get it: "This isn't the way it's supposed to be". It's not rocket science.

Which means they're not movies about a team, they're movies about an individual and the team is just part of his story.

That's true. How about that? Though I think we've definitely seen scenes of "The X-Men as a team" without Wolverine in them.

He didn't want to be there at first, but once he's there he definately does not want to take orders from Scott. That's in character-he's been an ******* in the comics from day one-but what makes X3 suck is that he actually DOES get his wish. Why? BECAUSE THEY KILL CYCLOPS!

And round and round we go...I said "Wolverine doesn't want to control the team". You essentially admitted I was right about that, because you backed me up on it later on. Incidentally, this is probably one of the silliest arguments you've yet made. You're just rambling in your hatred of Wolverine, going completely off on a tangent, and it's really quite pathetic.

Scott has no background given, no discussions of who he is or what he is about. He's presented as nothing byt a preppie boyscout who kisses Xavier's ass.

See, that's just your interpretation, and your bias against this movie's writing showing plainly. Let me present mine: Given what we've seen, Scott is clearly a mutant who has had to endure hardships in his life, and quite a bit of adversity. He has a power that could clearly be a curse and keep him away from other people, but he has, with Xavier's help, turned it into a gift. He's a good man who risks his life to help others. These are all interesting concepts to me. "Preppy boyscout", last I checked, was fairly in character with Scott Summers in the comics, animated series, etc, and not a character flaw per se. And I defy you to find ONE SCENE where Scott "kisses Xavier's ass" by any accepted definition of the phrase. Oh. You can't.

This of course makes him less appealing to the audience than the tough, bad-ass Wolverine.

Not to me. I prefer a man who stands for something, and doesn't resort to low-blows and insults when wrongly challenged, but responds instead with a cool, calm, and intelligent demeanor, even when he gets angry. Like Scott does.

The difference being that Magneto is a villian.

But wait, I thought Scott was Wolverine's "villain"/obstacle? Could it be...another hole in your argument?

The audience shouldn't be manipulated into disliking Scott.

They're not. If there was dialogue like "jeez, Scott's a jealous *******", you might say that. But there's no such dialogue. Or onscreen moments, in either film.

But there's lots of little touches (the preppy clothes, the ass-kissing attitude, the complete ineptitude, N'Sync on the car radio) that subtly reminds the audience...Cyclops is a loser and a dick.

1. OH NO! PREPPY CLOTHES! SACRILIEDGE! Dressing nicely or a certain way is BAD now! (intolerant fool).
2. Once again, where does he kiss Xavier's ass?
3. I've already disproven your idiotic notions of his "complete ineptitude" (which you apparently couldn't defend against, because you never responded to my destruction of your argument).
4. And uh, as you said, RADIO. N'Sync was just ON THE RADIO. Not in Scott's CD player, or tapedeck, or what have you. That's just the song that happened to be playing. So we can assume that, what, Scott listens to pop music? Granted, so many stations play pop/rap that it's almost up in the air what he prefers. And plenty of American's don't think that someone who listens to that kind of music is a loser and a dick. You're showing your upbringing. Ignorance and intolerance seems to be the base values. That's amusing and contradictory, considering you're an X-Men fan.

Yet with all of that, many people came off with the attitude that he was a punk and a loser. Why? Because of all his screw-ups, which were much more noticable.

"Many people"? Please. Anyone who does believe this is someone who, at their roots, just has a basic intolerance toward anyone who doesn't solve their problems with insults and violence, and who dresses nicely, because they resent those kinds of people to begin with in the real world. You know it and I know it. It's not my fault people can't properly interpret a film. Shall we make a poll about whether Scott is a punk and a loser in X-MEN and X2?

**** Wolverine. The only scene I want to see with him is a 20 minute torture sequence followed by his bloody death and dismemberment.

Yes...we know. Way to be open-minded.

But he won in the rematches except against Magneto, who it takes a team to beat.

Oh, but Scott coming back from HIS failures doesn't cancel out his defeats? Hypocrite.

You mean stupid orders like "Storm, fry him" when their inside a huge metal conductor.

I've already pointed out why that wasn't stupid. You chose to ignore it, probably because you couldn't defend against it, because it makes sense.

He comes off like the coach's son who's given command just because he sucks up. He's not given any respect at all.

Where does Scott "suck up?" I can name scenes where he's given respect. Want to hear them? No, because you're ignorant and intolerant.

You are such an apologist that it's not even funny. Anyone knows those scenes make Scott look like less of a man than Wolverine.

And you're ignorant and intolerant. I'd rather be open-minded and open to finding the good side of things than what you seem to be. I mean, seriously, you can't handle that Jean shows interest in Wolverine? God help your girlfriend/boyfriend/fiancee, should you ever find yourself in that situation.

There hasn't been any such scenes, have there? And guess what, smart-ass, there WON'T be any now because your LORD and MASTER Tom Rothman f'n KILLED CYclops off in this movie that you're kissing the ass of, like a good little slave. Imagine THAT, punk.

I don't need to see sex scenes to show me characters are in love. More insults directed at me? Yup, ignorance and intolerance.

You accept them killing off the character in X3 without question.

Uh, no...I've already told you I don't like it. Just because you didn't see my thought process on the matter when I thought about it almost a year ago doesn't mean I accepted the death of Cyclops without question, or that I like it even now. And even if I did accept it, that doesn't equal "hatred and scorn" for a character.

That alone shows me disrespect. No other Cyclops fan is rolling over and taking it like you are. So your respect for the character cannot be that great, now can it?

And what have you done? ***** constantly? Pretend you aren't going to see the movie over it? Let it ruin the entire movie for you? Insult other people who don't agree with your approach?

And as long as you make personal insults, I'm happy to throw them right back at you. All I know is that if the world was made up of people like you, we'd still be British Colonies. Because you just take crap and in fact you defend the establishment.

Oh it's nothing personal. You're just not very intelligent or open minded, and if we're keeping score, I believe you made the insults first. You also called me a liar, which I have yet to do to you, and you have yet to retract, or prove in any way. And look, everyone! One of those pathetic "patriotic" defenses. Make that ignorant, intolerant, and uneducated!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, you ARE defending it blindly!!! And THEN you claim to be a Cyclops fan?? You are a tool. A complete and total tool.

Blindly defending something doesn't involve logic, which I use. And look, there is another insult.

If they're so unimportant, they why are you making extremenly long posts defending them?

Ah, my friend, what little you know of me. I'm not doing this to defend them. I'm sizing up you.

If it doesn't matter so much to you, then why are you spending all this time making excuses for them? And never tell me how to live my life. I'll live it however I damn well please.

I don't recall telling you how to live your life. Clearly you will do what you damn well please (except see a movie where Cyclops is the main character). Hope you enjoy it.

Nowhere near as good screentime as Lando. Not even close. Probably about like Piett.

Ignorant, intolerant, uneducated, and incapable of comparing things properly. I don't recall Piett having any intimate scenes, or kickass power displays, or what have you.

The trade off would have been less Wolverine, not less Storm, Xavier or Magneto. Not everything has to be done to serve the almighty Wolverine, you know.

I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I don't want to see everything done to serve the almighty Wolverine. But that scenario, "each to his equal portion amongst the gang", presents us with a film that does not have much of a focal point, and is essentially aimless. And that's just not condusive to good writing.

Him standing there and just letting it happen makes him look weak. It's like he doesn't stand up for himself because he knows he'll lose. And that's why the audience doesn't respect him.

Really? Because I think that not responding to violence with violence makes a person stronger, and more mature. Ignorant, intolerant, and something of a societal sheep, it seems.

Apologist idiot. You see what your masters at FOX want you to see.

They're not my masters, but yes, I see what they want me to see, since they're, you know, paying to have the film made. Duh. Hey, another insult! Wonder if THIS one will sway me. Nah.

 

[The Guard]

For those of you who think Cyclops getting beat by Deathstrike was a bad scene...let's talk about viewing things in context:

1. Cyclops turns toward the door to see what's going on with Xavier. Deathstrike enters. Cyclops whirls. Deathstrike hits him with a dart.

2. Recognizing the threat, and the potential for being drugged, Cyclops acts. He blasts Deathstrike down, and then blasts another guard. When a second guard and the metal monitor engage him in combat, Scott takes them both on at the same time, and kicks their asses, making it obvious he is a formidable fighter.

3. Scott then hurries to the door, where he is about to blast it open to aid Xavier, when...

4. Deathstrike, a mutant with healing abilities (which Scott can't possibly know about), is suddenly conscious again, and is FLYING through the air toward him so fast he can't possibly do anything.

What few scenes he had in X2 did very little for him. Even on his big scene after Jean died, the camera is 100% on who? We know who.

Actually it wasn't there 100 percent of the time. It went to Wolverine after we saw Scott's reaction. Because it's Wolverine's franchise. Doesn't change the fact that it was still a well acted moment by James Marsden.

I doubt you know more than I do about writing. And you damn sure don't know more than I do about comics. But nice try, boy.

I may not know more about writing, but you aren't displaying any knowledge of it so far. And I don't care what you know about "comics". It has no bearing on this discussion.

That's a lame comeback. But anything to defend your masters, I suppose.

So you think, what, that there's something out there that ISN'T a cliche? Hell, you yourself are a cliche.

He's weak because he's beaten so easily in the first place.

Let's see you take on Deathstrike and somehow know Toad is about to strike in the train station. This is getting classic.

No, because most of the time he wins in the first place.

Not in these films. If your arguments didn't have so many enormous holes in them, I might take you seriously.

But whenever's he's personally beaten, he comes back and wins. Only Magneto gets much respect against him, but even the dumbed down movie audiences know he has no shot vs Magneto.

And now you're insulting movie audiences?

That scene was written for the express reason of making it clear that Cyclops was stupid and inept. First thing should have been to try to free the entire team.

Yes, that's what they wanted. "Hey, you know, what we really need is a scene that makes Cyclops look stupid and inept". Free the team! Yeah, that's a great idea! So, uh, how's he going to free the team, slick?

He blew their cover, which made him come off as inept.

Blew their cover when?

Cyke getting beat would be okay if he ever won.

He does win. He beat Magneto in X-MEN, and the guards in X2. So, since you say it's ok if he ever won, him getting beat must be ok.

Yeah and that's why that line was in the script? Oh, but wait, i thought you knew more about writing than me.

I know enough about writing to know that it's a throwaway line they didn't put half as much thought into as you seem to think they did. It's a line essentially put there to tell the audience "There's nothing anyone can do", without having a character scream "It's hopeless! Utterly, utterly hopeless!".

And if he had given her a decnet fight, and THEN Wolverine would have had to fight dirty to beat her, this would be the audience's reaction: damn, she beat Cyclops, and the only reason Wolverine beat her was because he cheated and fought dirty. SO let's see, if they'd let Cyke put up a good fight, it would have 1) made Cyke look good. 2) Made Deathstryke look even better because she managed to beat Cyke aND 3) Made Wolverine look clever and resourceful. So all three characters could have benefited. See? THAT'S how you write such a sequence-so the earlier scene pays off later. Oh, but wait, you know SOOOOO much about writing.

First, I'm not sure comic book Cyclops has ever BEEN that good. Movie Cyclops clearly wasn't meant to be on that level. Second, I didn't write the film. I didn't say it was perfect, or that it couldn't have been done better. I was addressing a completely different point than you've now brought up. Why are you acting like I wrote the scene to begin with?

You're right-Wolverine is pretty boring. I agree.

He's not perfect. He is constantly getting his ass handed to him, as you admitted to earlier. Heavens, you don't so much make a persistent argument as you trip over your own ego trying to do so.

And he comes right back.

Depends on what you mean by "comes right back"., If you mean "gets up right away", (buzzer noise) wrong. He gets knocked the hell out by Sabertooth and Magneto, and Mystique. And he doesn't come back to fight Sabertooth till the end of the film, and it is CYCLOPS who defeats Sabertooth, not Wolverine. And Wolverine never comes back to take his revenge on Mystique. And he never touches Magneto again in the franchise (unless he does in X3).

Which is okay, it is his character.

Then why is it not ok for Cyclops to come right back after a defeat?

Wow, two whole guards.

You asked me to show you an example of a success. This is a success. I didn't say he was on par with Wolverine's fight scenes or portrayed as an amazing fighter. Partially because that's not what you asked for.

Oh good lord. I'm just a pissed off comic book fan, not a freaking terrorist. All I can do is ***** and kevetch.

Then, in the end, you're accepting it. Hypocrite.

The sheepish way is to just accept it and still support the movie. The character matters too much to me. I'd be so pissed after his death that the rest of the movie couldn't make up for it.

Sucks to be you. But what would you like me to do? Curl up and whimper? Give up on everything in life that has some element I don't care for or dislike? Good luck with that outlook.

Comparing this movie to Schumacher movies is a very good comparision.

I love it. Out of all I wrote on the subject of this being rushed, this is what you have to say..

It shouldn't have ever been that way. And I hate Wolverine with a passion personally. He's my most hated character of all time. See, I actually remember the X-Men BEFORE Wolverine. When it was a cult comic, not a commercial comic.

Oh, so you're an oldschool fan set in his ways and resistant to change. Gee, couldn't have guessed that. I've read the X-Men comics before Wolverine came along, too. They are far more interesting with him. He provides that much more depth to every character around him, the same as Storm does, Colossus does, Rogue does, Gambit does, etc. The writing is better in the era he arrived, and the stories are better in that era as well (Phoenix Saga, Dark Phoenix Saga, etc).

Because I felt that Nightcrawler was written with more respect than Cyclops.

Why? Because nothing happened to Nightcrawler in X2 that could be considered a failure?

How about a scene or two regarding his background? Just a few short dialogue scenes referecing the loss of his parents and his situation in the orphanage would do a lot for the character. We as comic fans know it, but movie audiences have no idea why Scott is the way he is. If they knew just a little about him, they'd care more. And it wouldn't eat up that much screentime. I think Storm could use that as well.

What would be the point of a nigh pointless scene about Cyclops's background? What bearing does it have on the story? Putting one more "poor orphan" character into the mythos? Ooh, dramatic. Unless it would be EXPLORED, I'm highly against such a scene. Some scenes (explaining why Beast is blue) are kind of neccessary. Some aren't. Forcing such scenes or lines into a film for the sake of character, that's not neccessarily good writing, and detracts from the overall story and pacing.

Yeah, she serves two purposes. She and Scott should have been the focal point of X3.

I agree. They aren't, though.

Yeah, they explored Storm so much that Halle threatened to walk unless she got more screentime.

Actually, Storm has gotten about as much exploration as any character other than Wolverine has, including emotional arcs and quite a bit of big action and effects scenes.

But the point is that Scott shouldn't be a background character.

I don't know what to tell you. I agree. But this isn't my film series. I'm not doling out hundreds of millions of dollars to make them and produce them and distribute them, and I'm not writing them. So I don't get to call the shots.

The X-Men's leader should not have the same amount of screentime as the villians top henchwoman.

No he shouldn't. But this isn't my film series. I'm not doling out hundreds of millions to make them, produce them, and distribute them, and I'm not writing them. So I don't get to call the shots.

The fact that you defend it is what I have a problem with.

I have never defended the fact that Scott has had a small part. I've defended how he's been WRITTEN. I've EXPLAINED why he has a small part in X3, and pointed out that some good has/did come of his having a smaller role in this franchise. You seem to think my views go one way or the other on everything. They don't. I'm not terribly pleased that Cyclops has a small role, but I love his screentime so far.

Anyway, this has been fun. I've given you multiple chances to turn things around in terms of your dealings with me (and others), but I tire of you and your ignorant, close-minded approach. I tire of your intolerance and insults. As such, you're going on my ignore list so you won't clutter up the threads I visit when X3 is released. That's right. Guardball has a purpose now.

Exactly! why do you think I ceased even responding to him.

Short attention span?

Not only that but he combined both discusions in one post.

Clever, isn't it? Imagine how large my post count would be if I didn't do that...

I don't have the time or the will to debate with anyone that doesn't listen to any reason, and he can't look at anything objectively so there is no further point in taking this discusion any further.

I can absolutely remain objective and listen to reason. But you have given me no reason. Hammering at me with "this is my opinion" and ignoring any logic I provide and even refusing to discuss said logic is not "reason".

He wants someone to provide proof on how Wolverine is overrated

No, I wanted someone to tell me who is a more relevant and complex character in the X-Men universe.

Which is actually such a ridiculous request since its as clear as day, even if I or anyone else felt like elaborating and showing proof as to why and how Wolverine is overrated, he would never accept it, so there is no real reason to bother.

Well then, if it's clear as day, it shouldn't be hard for you to provide proof then, should it? And guess what? I have never said a thing about Wolverine NOT being overrated. In fact, I feel he often is. You just make assumptions about how I feel. Classic.

How or why would anyone can read all of that is beyond me

That is why you fail. You refuse to read it, and then make assumptions about it's content.

 

[Azrael23]

WTF? Aid of my buddy? Guardball a satirical look at the pointlessness of the huge rambling round and round discussions that never get resolved. You obviously have no eye for satire. I usually don't have to SPELL IT OUT for people.

Theres no disputing the rambling part and apparently he is not your buddy. Although you don't have to spell it out for anyone especially since I didn't ask for it to be spelled it out.