BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer!

How do you feel about Goyer writing the script for the first Superman Batman film

  • His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT.

  • His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical.

  • His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread.

  • He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script

  • His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT.

  • His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical.

  • His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread.

  • He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script

  • His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT.

  • His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical.

  • His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread.

  • He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script

  • His work on MOS was VERY GOOD. He'll do GREAT.

  • His work on MOS was OKAY. I am Skecptical.

  • His work on MOS was POOR. I feel dread.

  • He NEEDS Affleck's help and guidance to deliver a great script


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I thought he meant ready to face the world. And no, I don't think a child CK would be. :o

And when is he? Whenever he should find his super-suit? Whenever aliens should invade earth? The movie seems to tell us it's not a matter of being ready but being urgent to do so.
 
So it is 100 votes so far!

Don't mind Goyer - 46
Mind Goyer - 54

Completely trusting of Goyer - 20
Skeptical or Worried - 80

The poll has spoken it seems.
 
Superman was madly in love with lois in the donnerverse. Couldn't tell you why but...he was.

Saying he loves her for no reason isn't enough. Why does he love her, what in this movie justifies him doing this for her? There is nothing, they interact 4x and only one of those lasts more than a minute.
 
And when is he? Whenever he should find his super-suit? Whenever aliens should invade earth? The movie seems to tell us it's not a matter of being ready but being urgent to do so.

When is he ready for what? Heroics? He was a hero long before he had the fancy suit. You wanted him to follow the classic, boring path of Clark Kent, having his mum make his suit for him, boring, boring, boring, been there, done that origin story.

Instead we get a Superman who works in humble jobs, who learns about humanity from working the backbreaking, dull jobs that wear people down. It allows him to see the greatness in humanity, and gave him a reason to decide to work so hard to save them.

It was a great change to see a Superman who was still learning his skills, totally unproven in battle, take on the super-powered villains. What made Clark such a great hero in MOS was not that he knew he could beat the bad guys, but that he didn't know a damn thing about them -- and he still rose to the challenge. THAT is what hero is about; facing down terrible odds, and fighting with everything inside of you, and never, ever giving up.

I'm sorry that you can't see that as well.

So it is 100 votes so far!

Don't mind Goyer - 46
Mind Goyer - 54

Completely trusting of Goyer - 20
Skeptical or Worried - 80

The poll has spoken it seems.

Yes, I see the sense of fan entitlement is hitting all time idiocy levels. Thanks for pointing it out again for us. :whatever::whatever:
 
When is he ready for what? Heroics? He was a hero long before he had the fancy suit. You wanted him to follow the classic, boring path of Clark Kent, having his mum make his suit for him, boring, boring, boring, been there, done that origin story.

I have to agree. A Superman movie that had Jor-el giving the suit to Clark, that shows Zod's trial on Krypton, who promises a revenge against Jor-el's son and does after being released from the Phantom Zone, that has the S as a family crest, THAT is truly original, never seen before in any Superman movie.

You're right, what's the point of making a superhero movie if we don't despise everything that is the superhero's history.

Anyways, I was asking for things within the movie. Specifically Pa Kent's speech who is barely addressed after being said. He talks about the world being "ready" for Clark's super-powers... and nothing of that happened. We don't get to know when the moment is or what it means; we just see that the world was urgently needing someone to defend it. That could be urgent, but not necessarily being "ready."

Instead we get a Superman who works in humble jobs, who learns about humanity from working the backbreaking, dull jobs that wear people down. It allows him to see the greatness in humanity, and gave him a reason to decide to work so hard to save them.

Well, Superman doesn't get tired like the rest of us.

It was a great change to see a Superman who was still learning his skills, totally unproven in battle, take on the super-powered villains. What made Clark such a great hero in MOS was not that he knew he could beat the bad guys, but that he didn't know a damn thing about them -- and he still rose to the challenge. THAT is what hero is about; facing down terrible odds, and fighting with everything inside of you, and never, ever giving up.

I'm sorry that you can't see that as well.

Oh, but I could see that. It's just that it doesn't have anything to do with what I said.
 
MOS was kind of doomed both ways, in a way. A more introspective origin would be met by some with an "origin again?" mentality, while this more action-oriented approach feels like a step back from the post 2005 movies. Speaking of which, I feel that if MOS was made before BB and DIDN'T feature the Superman character, it'd be acclaimed by critics and audiences alike.

I think a lot of the criticisms are "THIS ISN'T THE MOVIE I WANT" rather than "this is a bad movie." People have an internal mold for a Superman movie that they don't have for, say Thor or pretty much every other Superman movie.

PLUS, it has a flawed script and spotty editing. :/
 
So it is 100 votes so far!

Don't mind Goyer - 46
Mind Goyer - 54

Completely trusting of Goyer - 20
Skeptical or Worried - 80

The poll has spoken it seems.

I think Goyer needs someone bigger than him to deliver a strong script, and someone to repolish what's lacking. Dark City was a colab, BB was repolished by the Nolan Bros, the TDK sequels had Goyer in mainly an advisory role. Blade had mixed reviews by critics but is a cult classic (and that was 15 years ago).

Here is Goyer by himself
The-Unborn-horror-movies-8051233-1600-1200.jpg
 
I have to agree. A Superman movie that had Jor-el giving the suit to Clark, that shows Zod's trial on Krypton, who promises a revenge against Jor-el's son and does after being released from the Phantom Zone, that has the S as a family crest, THAT is truly original, never seen before in any Superman movie.

Er, I meant more of the idea that Clark was a reluctant hero, cautious of showing himself to the world. I admit to not having seen or read every origin story, but I've only seen it in Earth One and MOS.

Since we are writing about Superman, there are of course, certain similarities to the comics we're going to see. But as far as character development and motivations, the writers have a lot of room to play with, which is what I was referring to -- if you had read my post a little more carefully.

You're right, what's the point of making a superhero movie if we don't despise everything that is the superhero's history.

I don't despise Superman's history. I'm just tired of seeing the same things rehashed. I want a new perspective -- not necessarily an entire change in his history, but a new approach to the character. MOS gave that to me.

Anyways, I was asking for things within the movie. Specifically Pa Kent's speech who is barely addressed after being said. He talks about the world being "ready" for Clark's super-powers... and nothing of that happened. We don't get to know when the moment is or what it means; we just see that the world was urgently needing someone to defend it. That could be urgent, but not necessarily being "ready."

As I've noted many times over, people have latched onto that one snippet of Jonathan's speech, and nothing else. That's the main problem. Jonathan talked about the world -- but he spoke more about Clark being ready, as a man, to bear the responsibilities of his powers. He refers to that time as when Clark is a man, not a child. Besides the need to keep the secret, he needed Clark to be ready to face the consequences of the use of his power. He says it several times in the film. Martha Kent also mentions it in the cemetery to Clark.

NOW, to be fair, it's Perry who reiterates the claim that the world may not be ready for someone like Superman.

The world was not ready for Superman, no. Clark wasn't ready to be a public superhero either. He was just barely ready to take on the bad guys -- but I believe his strength of character was very much ready to handle the difficulties that he is going to have to face from this time forward.

Well, Superman doesn't get tired like the rest of us.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Clark had these humble jobs that let him get in the trenches with very ordinary people. People who have rough lives, exhausting work, who don't make a lot of money or have a lot of money.

It enabled him to see people in some of the most difficult of circumstances, who manage to be good and heroic. Like the fishing guy who 'saved' him from getting squashed. Like the Coast Guard, risking everything to save the oil rig workers. Like Chrissy, who tells him to not worry, even though the cost of him leaving is probably going to be having her body pawed at like it's a toy.

Clark gains his understanding and love of humanity from working and being around them, even if he isn't totally a part of their community.

Oh, but I could see that. It's just that it doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

My mistake then. :p

MOS was kind of doomed both ways, in a way. A more introspective origin would be met by some with an "origin again?" mentality, while this more action-oriented approach feels like a step back from the post 2005 movies. Speaking of which, I feel that if MOS was made before BB and DIDN'T feature the Superman character, it'd be acclaimed by critics and audiences alike.

I think a lot of the criticisms are "THIS ISN'T THE MOVIE I WANT" rather than "this is a bad movie." People have an internal mold for a Superman movie that they don't have for, say Thor or pretty much every other Superman movie.

PLUS, it has a flawed script and spotty editing. :/

The bolded part. Yes. Which segues nicely into the next part of my post:

Disliking something is entitlement?

Disliking MOS because it isn't your own particular vision of Superman, or because it didn't choose the comics or films you wanted to see adapted is not the same as disliking a film based on genuine problems like editing, camerawork, etc.

There WERE issues in MOS. I freely admit that. There are issues in pretty much every film I've ever seen. However, the general issues with the film seem to lean towards, "This isn't my Superman". The actual problems with the film are then used to prop up the claims of just how terrible the film is, and are used as defense to shred Goyer and Snyder to pieces, and act as if they can't make films.

Sorry, but no. "Your Superman", or someone else's Superman is an entitlement issue, not an actual problem with the script.

And any time the phrase "They'd better make it more...." comes into play, you know we've hit the entitlements full on. As if your opinion should matter to the writers, especially when MOS was a success, no matter how much you try to make things appear to be negative.

Fans do not get input into writing films for a reason. If they did, MOS would have sucked, because it would have been boring, choppier than ever, and full of silly one-liners that make "Release the kraken world engine" look like Shakespeare.

The point I'm making is that the complaints aren't based fairly on the writing of Goyer. The complaints are largely rooted in the entitlement belief of 'true fans' that think their own particular version of Superman should have been on the big screen.
 
Tempest,

You're right, fans feel entitled.

They have been pouring money into the Superman franchise for decades, supporting the character, and bringing billions of dollars of profits to DC/WB over that time span. For that they get Superman dating Wonder Woman in the New 52, they get Clark Kent being a jerk and neurotic child in Smallville, and they get Man of Steel. Following this, no more Superman movies will be made, just team-up movies involving Batman and eventually the entire Justice League.

In that same time frame, Batman got 3 solo movies, Captain America gets 2 solo movies, Thor gets 2 solo movies, Iron Man gets 3 solo movies, Transformers are getting 5 or 6 solo movies, Resident Evil gets 5 or 6 movies, etc etc etc...

The situation is 100% equivalent to the fans of a loyal sports team being frustrated with a general manager who makes one bad trade after one bad signing after one bad draft selection after another.
 
Tempest,

You're right, fans feel entitled.

They have been pouring money into the Superman franchise for decades, supporting the character, and bringing billions of dollars of profits to DC/WB over that time span. For that they get Superman dating Wonder Woman in the New 52, they get Clark Kent being a jerk and neurotic child in Smallville, and they get Man of Steel. Following this, no more Superman movies will be made, just team-up movies involving Batman and eventually the entire Justice League.

In that same time frame, Batman got 3 solo movies, Captain America gets 2 solo movies, Thor gets 2 solo movies, Iron Man gets 3 solo movies, Transformers are getting 5 or 6 solo movies, Resident Evil gets 5 or 6 movies, etc etc etc...

The situation is 100% equivalent to the fans of a loyal sports team being frustrated with a general manager who makes one bad trade after one bad signing after one bad draft selection after another.

Source?
 
Marvin,

We're getting a Batman/Superman movie in 2015, and indications point to a Justice League movie in 2017. I don't need to find the sources for you, you can do so yourself.

I guess we might get another Superman stand alone movie in 2019 (Amy Adams will be 45), but if you extrapolate current trends, they will do what they did in the animated universe, where Superman only shows up when the rest of the Justice League shows up as well.
 
Disliking MOS because it isn't your own particular vision of Superman, or because it didn't choose the comics or films you wanted to see adapted is not the same as disliking a film based on genuine problems like editing, camerawork, etc.

There WERE issues in MOS. I freely admit that. There are issues in pretty much every film I've ever seen. However, the general issues with the film seem to lean towards, "This isn't my Superman". The actual problems with the film are then used to prop up the claims of just how terrible the film is, and are used as defense to shred Goyer and Snyder to pieces, and act as if they can't make films.

Sorry, but no. "Your Superman", or someone else's Superman is an entitlement issue, not an actual problem with the script.

And any time the phrase "They'd better make it more...." comes into play, you know we've hit the entitlements full on. As if your opinion should matter to the writers, especially when MOS was a success, no matter how much you try to make things appear to be negative.

Fans do not get input into writing films for a reason. If they did, MOS would have sucked, because it would have been boring, choppier than ever, and full of silly one-liners that make "Release the kraken world engine" look like Shakespeare.

The point I'm making is that the complaints aren't based fairly on the writing of Goyer. The complaints are largely rooted in the entitlement belief of 'true fans' that think their own particular version of Superman should have been on the big screen.

Amen.

The situation is 100% equivalent to the fans of a loyal sports team being frustrated with a general manager who makes one bad trade after one bad signing after one bad draft selection after another.

No it's not 100% equivalent. That analogy is extremely poor and inaccurate.

Sports franchises only have two goals in mind: Winning and money.

As long as games are being won and money is being made, fans are happy, and owners are happy.

So according to your analogy, MOS was a huge success. It made a massive amount of money all over the world, and fans enjoyed it.

That's right, fans enjoyed it. Or else they wouldn't have poured money into the film all summer, weekend after weekend.

And by fans, I mean general audience. Not small corners of the internet like this forum where the hardcore fan can voice their displeasures over subtle nuances or one line of dialogue that they didn't like.

Marvin,

We're getting a Batman/Superman movie in 2015, and indications point to a Justice League movie in 2017. I don't need to find the sources for you, you can do so yourself.

I guess we might get another Superman stand alone movie in 2019 (Amy Adams will be 45), but if you extrapolate current trends, they will do what they did in the animated universe, where Superman only shows up when the rest of the Justice League shows up as well.

Extrapolate current trends...while using an animated series that ended 7 years ago as an example?

If we're going by current trends, then they would more than likely mimic Marvel and jump back into solo movies after the big team film no?
 
Tempest,

You're right, fans feel entitled.

Good, glad we got that cleared up.

They have been pouring money into the Superman franchise for decades, supporting the character, and bringing billions of dollars of profits to DC/WB over that time span. For that they get Superman dating Wonder Woman in the New 52, they get Clark Kent being a jerk and neurotic child in Smallville, and they get Man of Steel. Following this, no more Superman movies will be made, just team-up movies involving Batman and eventually the entire Justice League.

Right. Fans have poured money into Superman, which has, for 75 years, continued in various formats to entertain and entice people to spend their money. There have been some good things, some great things, and some really dumb things, but the truth is, despite the failures and shortcomings, Superman continues to rise above them.

What can I say? Some things just never go out of style. MOS has solidified Superman in the newest generations. Despite you, slumcat, Tobias, and many other detractors who keep screaming about how badly the movie sucked, MOS still raked in in over 640 million bucks. That's pretty damn good, considering the fact that the audience was skeptical about a Superman film.

In that same time frame, Batman got 3 solo movies, Captain America gets 2 solo movies, Thor gets 2 solo movies, Iron Man gets 3 solo movies, Transformers are getting 5 or 6 solo movies, Resident Evil gets 5 or 6 movies, etc etc etc...

The reason for that is the other movies were cool, whereas we had campy, stupid, Superman movies for a long time, followed by a melodramatic Superman film that really didn't connect for a lot of the GA.

MOS gave the GA a Superman that was interesting to modern audiences.

The situation is 100% equivalent to the fans of a loyal sports team being frustrated with a general manager who makes one bad trade after one bad signing after one bad draft selection after another.

It's not quite the same thing, but the same principle applies to sports fans, yes: Spending money on a creative work does not grant you creative input. Sorry. Life is difficult, and sometimes things just don't go your way.
 
Disliking MOS because it isn't your own particular vision of Superman, or because it didn't choose the comics or films you wanted to see adapted is not the same as disliking a film based on genuine problems like editing, camerawork, etc.

There WERE issues in MOS. I freely admit that. There are issues in pretty much every film I've ever seen. However, the general issues with the film seem to lean towards, "This isn't my Superman". The actual problems with the film are then used to prop up the claims of just how terrible the film is, and are used as defense to shred Goyer and Snyder to pieces, and act as if they can't make films.

Sorry, but no. "Your Superman", or someone else's Superman is an entitlement issue, not an actual problem with the script.

And any time the phrase "They'd better make it more...." comes into play, you know we've hit the entitlements full on. As if your opinion should matter to the writers, especially when MOS was a success, no matter how much you try to make things appear to be negative.

Fans do not get input into writing films for a reason. If they did, MOS would have sucked, because it would have been boring, choppier than ever, and full of silly one-liners that make "Release the kraken world engine" look like Shakespeare.

The point I'm making is that the complaints aren't based fairly on the writing of Goyer. The complaints are largely rooted in the entitlement belief of 'true fans' that think their own particular version of Superman should have been on the big screen.

I disagree with this notion and to me it rather sounds like an attempt at discrediting the opinions of people that didn't like the movie. Most of the criticism I've seen have not been about changing the character.

For example, I actually liked the decision that Superman had to kill and he being torn up about it. I didn't expect to when I had that spoiled for me (there's always people that don't understand why specific threads are spoiler tagged) but I did. My problems with that lie with that the scene where it happened made little sense from a physical perspective, and the script then quite quickly jumps away from that (and all the devastation of Metropolis) to a happy little scene with the Daily Planet and then it ends. It would have been better if it had either a consistent lighter tone or if it actually took the time to allow the emotional things they build up to matter. Not necessarily entirely Goyer's fault as it might have to do with editing as well, but he's part of it.

The same thing goes with scenes like Jonathan's death. The fact that it's Superman that makes that horrible and unlikable choice just makes it worse (as he's generally the ultimate good guy) but the problem lies on a much deeper level as most frail humans would never let anything stop them from helping their parent if they had a chance to save their lives. It's worse when it's built up by Jonathan's advice against being a hero actually being shown in the movie as highly flawed. Clark broke the orders before and absolutely nothing came out of it, but now he's suddenly letting his father die due to that order? In my opinion that's really bad writing for establishing a protagonist.

That I dislike how everything good about Superman as a hero now seems to come solely from Krypton and nothing from us humans is something I dislike on a thematic level and because it's a flatter story, not because it's different from earlier Superman stuff. I prefer the theme of how a son of Krypton eventually becomes a glorious hero because he takes the best of both worlds, not because he's an übermensch from another planet that comes to us losers on Earth to teach us not to suck so much.


I don't have any problems with people enjoying the movie. In fact I think it's great and I wish that I did the same. I do dislike to see statements about that we who didn't like it are entitled and narrow-minded though.
 
Originally, I was disappointed with the decision of Superman/Batman rather than a straight MOS sequel. But I look at it this way. Say the rumors are true. World's Finest in 2015 and JL in 2017. Superman will have appeared on screen three times in five years.

We had to wait 19 years between Superman IV and Superman Returns. 7 years between Superman Returns and MOS.

Now, say we don't get a solo sequel till 2019. That's rough. But since he will be appearing onscreen in 2015 and 2017, he won't be completely forgotten.
 
Originally, I was disappointed with the decision of Superman/Batman rather than a straight MOS sequel. But I look at it this way. Say the rumors are true. World's Finest in 2015 and JL in 2017. Superman will have appeared on screen three times in five years.

We had to wait 19 years between Superman IV and Superman Returns. 7 years between Superman Returns and MOS.

Now, say we don't get a solo sequel till 2019. That's rough. But since he will be appearing onscreen in 2015 and 2017, he won't be completely forgotten.

I'm trying my hand at optimism. i hope we get the flash and wonder woman in 2016, as it's been rumored. going by that output, I'd imagine they'd have something in 2018 as well, and I'd expect that to be a superman film. of course, that'd might end being a bit exhaustive for some of the actors, so who knows.
 
Mjölnir;26805463 said:
The same thing goes with scenes like Jonathan's death. The fact that it's Superman that makes that horrible and unlikable choice just makes it worse (as he's generally the ultimate good guy)
Note sure the college Clark Kent has always/ever been portrayed as "the ultimate good guy" but let's run with that: I'm not all that sure him making the tough choice at his fathers behest for what they both believe to be the greater good, is all that unlikeable. Seems to be less the selfish choice and more one belonging to "the ultimate good guy".

but the problem lies on a much deeper level as most frail humans would never let anything stop them from helping their parent if they had a chance to save their lives.
Which is precisely why it's far more a heroic decision than you are giving it credit for.

It's worse when it's built up by Jonathan's advice against being a hero actually being shown in the movie as highly flawed. Clark broke the orders before and absolutely nothing came out of it, but now he's suddenly letting his father die due to that order? In my opinion that's really bad writing for establishing a protagonist.
Clark "broke" the orders when he wasn't made aware of the fact that he was an alien whose existence would possibly alter the history of man kind(among other things). He also made that decision on a small bus with no witnesses but 2 kids. It was after this decision that clark first came into contact with the immediate ramifications to scale, the boys mother showed up demanding answers. Safe to assume if you bump up the scale in terms of spectacle and spectators, the ramifications will scale up proportionately.
That I dislike how everything good about Superman as a hero now seems to come solely from Krypton and nothing from us humans is something I dislike on a thematic level and because it's a flatter story, not because it's different from earlier Superman stuff. I prefer the theme of how a son of Krypton eventually becomes a glorious hero because he takes the best of both worlds, not because he's an übermensch from another planet that comes to us losers on Earth to teach us not to suck so much.
Curious how you figure this. Ignoring the donner movies, which seemingly committed this crime on a far more explicit level.

I'm curious how you figure the bolded part there. The simple fact that clark was saving lives from childhood in MOS due to being raised by decent parents seems to wholly argue against your understanding of this story.

Lastly, Jons advice was hardly flawed. If anything it was proven correct.
This might be what people like Tempest are referring to when they say the singular viewpoint has little acceptance for the unconventional.
Jon never told him to not be a hero. He told him to keep "that" part of himself a secret till the time was right and he know what kind of man he wanted to be.
 
Mjölnir;26805463 said:
I disagree with this notion and to me it rather sounds like an attempt at discrediting the opinions of people that didn't like the movie. Most of the criticism I've seen have not been about changing the character.

Just like we have differences in how we view the movie, we obviously view fandom in a different way as well. I see a lot of complaining about the changes made to Superman's character.

For example, I actually liked the decision that Superman had to kill and he being torn up about it. I didn't expect to when I had that spoiled for me (there's always people that don't understand why specific threads are spoiler tagged) but I did. My problems with that lie with that the scene where it happened made little sense from a physical perspective, and the script then quite quickly jumps away from that (and all the devastation of Metropolis) to a happy little scene with the Daily Planet and then it ends. It would have been better if it had either a consistent lighter tone or if it actually took the time to allow the emotional things they build up to matter. Not necessarily entirely Goyer's fault as it might have to do with editing as well, but he's part of it.

I disagree. We had a quiet moment from Clark and Lois. That itself was perfect and beautiful, and I didn't feel it was necessary for the film to carry on being all somber.

The only thing I could say about the end that I would have changed is maybe the drone scene. I liked it, but it did feel like the odd-scene out. I think cutting from Clark being held by Lois to going to the scene in the cemetery would have been more effective, but it's not something that I would use to categorically call this film bad, or to suggest that Goyer's writing sucks.

The same thing goes with scenes like Jonathan's death. The fact that it's Superman that makes that horrible and unlikable choice just makes it worse (as he's generally the ultimate good guy) but the problem lies on a much deeper level as most frail humans would never let anything stop them from helping their parent if they had a chance to save their lives. It's worse when it's built up by Jonathan's advice against being a hero actually being shown in the movie as highly flawed. Clark broke the orders before and absolutely nothing came out of it, but now he's suddenly letting his father die due to that order? In my opinion that's really bad writing for establishing a protagonist.

The scene only takes about two minutes to unfold. Clark is a child, inexperienced, and is torn between protecting his mother (who keeps trying to run out to Jonathan), and wanting to save his father. He didn't have a lot of time to think, didn't know how to properly weigh the benefits and risks. In other words, he wasn't ready to be a hero yet.

Besides, you just illustrated my point. "Superman wouldn't do what he did in this film" is the ultimate in fannish entitlement. Superman can't save everyone. It's been acknowledged many times in the comics. He's made mistakes, also noted in the comics -- by him.

Superman can, and does make mistakes. This was an important thing to happen to Superman; it's shaped who he is. I suspect that he really started to get involved and save people because of this mistake...he is driven by the need to make up for the past, and his inability to save one of the most important people in his life.

It's not flat-out said, but I think it's a logical conclusion to draw.

That I dislike how everything good about Superman as a hero now seems to come solely from Krypton and nothing from us humans is something I dislike on a thematic level and because it's a flatter story, not because it's different from earlier Superman stuff. I prefer the theme of how a son of Krypton eventually becomes a glorious hero because he takes the best of both worlds, not because he's an übermensch from another planet that comes to us losers on Earth to teach us not to suck so much.

...what are you talking about? This movie does the opposite of what you're complaining about. Superman learns from his Earth parents how to be a good person. He is a hero looooooong before he has a fancy outfit and cape. That didn't come from Krypton. That came from Martha and Jonathan.

I know everyone likes to **** on Jonathan because he wanted Clark to keep who he was a secret, but if you really pay attention to him, you see how much he loves Clark, how protective he is of his son, and how brave Jonathan was, especially in the tornado scene.

Traveling the world gave Clark the opportunity to see people, see their worth, the value that we have. He didn't learn that from Krypton.

What he got from Krypton was a fancy suit and a pep talk. That didn't make him suddenly become a hero -- it just gave him the nudge he needed to accept that he could do good works, and step 'into the light' so to speak, and become public.

I don't have any problems with people enjoying the movie. In fact I think it's great and I wish that I did the same. I do dislike to see statements about that we who didn't like it are entitled and narrow-minded though.

I don't disagree with people who have genuine complaints about the film. BUT the argument that "This is not my Superman" is a narrow-minded view, and is filled with entitlement.
 
There is nothing heroic about Clark letting his father die. Especially considering that after that he still saves people and displays his other worldly abilities. He could super speed to get to his dad because apparently people cowering from a tornado would see; but he had no problem letting those men on the rig see him rip open a door, walk through fire, and keep a portion of the burnin rig from falling on them.
 
there is heroism in sacrifice. that's what it was and that pa kent didn't want it any other way, till his son found his way.
 
There is nothing heroic about Clark letting his father die. Especially considering that after that he still saves people and displays his other worldly abilities.

None of these people he saves, know his identity.
For starters, on the boat they call him green horn..., secondly it's not clear if he actually uses his powers in plain sight all the time or if he does so under cover. Pretty sure his dads wishes are left in tact.
Clark fully revealed himself when he was ready to do so, till then he kept his alien/otherworldly side a secret for the good of the world.

He could super speed to get to his dad because apparently people cowering from a tornado would see
At what point during the entire film did superman display this power? I would hope you are about to cite a part of the film that happened before this tornado scene...
Simple logic: if he didn't do it, it's probably because he couldn't. Preconceptions will get you lost. Otherwise you'll be asking why he didn't just turn back time at the end of the movie.

but he had no problem letting those men on the rig see him rip open a door, walk through fire, and keep a portion of the burnin rig from falling on them.
None of that is superhuman or rather beyond rational explanation imo.

But even if it all was, there are two key differences between this scene and his dads scene:
1. He's a grown man capable of instantly disappearing after the fact. If anything, most would likely think he was a mad man that died in the act. Not the same as doing so in front of Town Hall smallville.
2. None of these people are in on his secret and fully aware of his powers, asking him not do to so. I'm sure if this had happened to be they case, he might be inclined to pass on saving them as well.
 
Was it established in the tornado scene that any of those people under stand bridge knew who Clark was or his past? If they did know then there is yet another reason not to let his dad die because he isn't keeping a secret it is already out. Even if he can't save his father faster then those people can see he still should have tried. It is not a sacrifice it is a stupid decision especially considering he kept saving people after the fact. Clark is around 18 when his dad dies, in what was is it impossible for him not to disappear after tr tornado. He could have saved his dad and disappeared making eveyone in Smallville think he died, thereby closing the chapter on superhuman Clark Kent. If Clark had just saved his dad things would have progressed the same way, people would have talked about it then apparently forgotten it ever happened. Clark would have traveled the world saving random people showing them his face and abilities and when he puts on the costume and one of those random people he save recognizes him and goes to the media and talks to them about then more and more people come forward about some random guy who went by the name Joe and looked remarkably like this Superman character.
And seriously? You did not just say that a man ripping off a door walking through fire and holding up an oil rig with his bare hands could be explained away logically? Well then to follow such logic so could Clark Savin those kids and saving his father.
 
Note sure the college Clark Kent has always/ever been portrayed as "the ultimate good guy" but let's run with that: I'm not all that sure him making the tough choice at his fathers behest for what they both believe to be the greater good, is all that unlikeable. Seems to be less the selfish choice and more one belonging to "the ultimate good guy".


Which is precisely why it's far more a heroic decision than you are giving it credit for.

Jonathan doesn't tell Clark not to be a hero because he wants an easier life (or anything like that), he does it solely to protect Clark. Therefor not saving his father means that Clark allows his father to sacrifice himself for his (Clark's) sake. And again it's for a cause that the movie showed us didn't matter.

Clark "broke" the orders when he wasn't made aware of the fact that he was an alien whose existence would possibly alter the history of man kind(among other things). He also made that decision on a small bus with no witnesses but 2 kids. It was after this decision that clark first came into contact with the immediate ramifications to scale, the boys mother showed up demanding answers. Safe to assume if you bump up the scale in terms of spectacle and spectators, the ramifications will scale up proportionately.
I'm referring to the school bus incident. He is seen doing something inhuman and nothing comes out of it because people see weird things under stress and really, who believes some nut job that claims that he saw a man lift a bus or something like that? Would you believe me if I said that I saw my neighbor fly last night?

My point is that it doesn't matter if there were a few witnesses at the bridge. The movie already showed us the realistic outcome of that, which is that the witnesses would cause a fuss and no one would believe them to be anything than nut jobs. At worst they would have to move. A small price to pay for your father's life.

Curious how you figure this. Ignoring the donner movies, which seemingly committed this crime on a far more explicit level.

I'm curious how you figure the bolded part there. The simple fact that clark was saving lives from childhood in MOS due to being raised by decent parents seems to wholly argue against your understanding of this story.

Lastly, Jons advice was hardly flawed. If anything it was proven correct.
This might be what people like Tempest are referring to when they say the singular viewpoint has little acceptance for the unconventional.
Jon never told him to not be a hero. He told him to keep "that" part of himself a secret till the time was right and he know what kind of man he wanted to be.
I think that because we see how his raising is consistently telling him not to be a hero now. They raise him to be a good person, but with the limit that he should think about his situation over others, no matter what danger they are in. He has immense abilities that could do a lot of good but Jonathan's message is mainly about how dangerous it is. That's of course true in itself and the concern is logical, but his advice is one-sided. Parents can't just preach one side and leave the other open, you also need to encourage your child when you see what they want to do.

Then he talks to his real father, who says that he should be a hero and that he's supposed to guide the entire Human race. It's through that encouragement that Superman is born and nothing in the movie shows that he wanted to take that step before, which is natural with what we saw of his upbringing.
 
Just like we have differences in how we view the movie, we obviously view fandom in a different way as well. I see a lot of complaining about the changes made to Superman's character.
I guess that can in part be due to our different stances, as you'd likely get more annoyed with such things and might take more note of them through that, while I might instead mainly look at criticism that mirrors my own. I'm not going to argue either way, my point was just that I felt that the statement got too strong in one direction.

I disagree. We had a quiet moment from Clark and Lois. That itself was perfect and beautiful, and I didn't feel it was necessary for the film to carry on being all somber.

The only thing I could say about the end that I would have changed is maybe the drone scene. I liked it, but it did feel like the odd-scene out. I think cutting from Clark being held by Lois to going to the scene in the cemetery would have been more effective, but it's not something that I would use to categorically call this film bad, or to suggest that Goyer's writing sucks.
To me it has to do with the tone of the movie. It never once gave me the impression that I should just take things lightly so that's why I feel that it's jarring to go from murder and devastation to something so lighthearted. My other issue is that the actual killing of Zod was set up poorly. Superman isn't strong enough to stop Zod from turning his head towards the family, but he's strong enough to break his neck. It's just one example of that I think Goyer can come up with good ideas but it doesn't always translate to good scenes in my view.

The scene only takes about two minutes to unfold. Clark is a child, inexperienced, and is torn between protecting his mother (who keeps trying to run out to Jonathan), and wanting to save his father. He didn't have a lot of time to think, didn't know how to properly weigh the benefits and risks. In other words, he wasn't ready to be a hero yet.

Besides, you just illustrated my point. "Superman wouldn't do what he did in this film" is the ultimate in fannish entitlement. Superman can't save everyone. It's been acknowledged many times in the comics. He's made mistakes, also noted in the comics -- by him.

Superman can, and does make mistakes. This was an important thing to happen to Superman; it's shaped who he is. I suspect that he really started to get involved and save people because of this mistake...he is driven by the need to make up for the past, and his inability to save one of the most important people in his life.

It's not flat-out said, but I think it's a logical conclusion to draw.
I think he's really disciplined in that scene. The logical inexperienced reaction would be to follow your emotions.

And I think you misread my statement about Superman. I just said it gets worse through that (and my description is what I usually hear from Superman fans) but that the core issue isn't about him at all. The core issue is that I don't see any good person allowing his parent to die to basically save themselves, and not from dying but from something that we saw didn't really matter much. I just think it's a very non-human choice that alienates me from the character, especially with so little time being spent on his past.

And of course Superman can't save everyone. That's how you have to write a character with so many powers. He definitely could have saved his father though. Easily. That's why it's a poorly written scene as it has Clark choose not to save his father rather than having him be unable to.

I think the scene, and character arc, would have made more sense if he instead failed to save his father (perhaps due to having to save his mother at the same time, or any other option) and the reason he is wandering around in the state he is at the beginning of the movie is because he's haunted by that and sees himself as a failure. As someone that can't be a hero. That way they could have had his parents both warning and encouraging around the hero issue, and his real father could be the catalyst that makes him overcome blaming himself but not be the entire encouragement to be a hero in his life. Not exactly script quality but just my own opinion written off the top of my head.

...what are you talking about? This movie does the opposite of what you're complaining about. Superman learns from his Earth parents how to be a good person. He is a hero looooooong before he has a fancy outfit and cape. That didn't come from Krypton. That came from Martha and Jonathan.

I know everyone likes to **** on Jonathan because he wanted Clark to keep who he was a secret, but if you really pay attention to him, you see how much he loves Clark, how protective he is of his son, and how brave Jonathan was, especially in the tornado scene.

Traveling the world gave Clark the opportunity to see people, see their worth, the value that we have. He didn't learn that from Krypton.

What he got from Krypton was a fancy suit and a pep talk. That didn't make him suddenly become a hero -- it just gave him the nudge he needed to accept that he could do good works, and step 'into the light' so to speak, and become public.
Note that I said "Superman". I.e. the hero that actually sets out to help others rather than doing it when he accidentally "has to" (as he is a good person) in the remote places he frequents. He doesn't necessarily want to help people, but he feels obligated to at times.

Jonathan himself is a good character. The problem I have with him isn't really with him but what role he gets in Superman's creation. I would have preferred him to be a more important person to focus more on that the hero is Kryptonian in body but human in mind.

When he talks to Jor-El I get the impression that he becomes a hero because he's told that his life has a meaning. Something it seemingly never had before. He basically finds out who he is not just in heritage but who he's supposed to be as a person. I don't see it as a slight nudge, I see it as a completely life-changing point.

I don't disagree with people who have genuine complaints about the film. BUT the argument that "This is not my Superman" is a narrow-minded view, and is filled with entitlement.
Well, whatever my opinions are it's not that. I stopped reading the Superman comics over 20 years ago and some changes to the character wouldn't hurt at all in my opinion.

For example, Cavill didn't strike me as Superman as clearly as previous actors when I saw the trailers but I liked him in the movie and think he was one of the best parts of the movie.


Edit: This became a lot of talk about MoS, which wasn't quite my intention. I just wanted to give a few examples that weren't about "this isn't Superman". I should have expected it though but I'm writing these things well after the point where I should have gone to bed.
 
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