DC's Definitive Joker origin

[BubbaGump]

The Joker deserves the BEST.

This sums up just about everything.

Why hand over the Joker's origin to the guys at Batman Confidential? A lot of people don't even WANT his past to be revealed, taking from all the comments on the TDK boards and praise on how Alan Moore handled "the multiple choice" theory.

I wouldn't mind as much if this were, say, another villain's origin. But this is the JOKER we're talking about. As Ibn has mentioned, he deserves the best.

 

[Joker]

This sums up just about everything.

Why hand over the Joker's origin to the guys at Batman Confidential? A lot of people don't even WANT his past to be revealed, taking from all the comments on the TDK boards and praise on how Alan Moore handled "the multiple choice" theory.

I wouldn't mind as much if this were, say, another villain's origin. But this is the JOKER we're talking about. As Ibn has mentioned, he deserves the best.

If you only want the best doing Joker stories, then you're only going to get 1 Joker story every 10 years...and I never minded an in continuity Joker origin, he had one for nearly 40 years until Moore came along and changed it...

 

[BubbaGump]

If you only want the best doing Joker stories, then you're only going to get 1 Joker story every 10 years...and I never minded an in continuity Joker origin, he had one for nearly 40 years until Moore came along and changed it...

Did I say only the best should write/illustrate Joker stories? No. I said the best to write the Joker's origin story, which doesn't happen often. In fact, another one probably won't happen for years. So am I disappointed that this steaming pile of crap is supposed to be Joker's origin? Yes.

 

[Anita18]

It's only obvious to people who know a good deal about science.

Which would actually be a fair amount of people....but I digress. I always find it more admirable when writers/artists do their research and don't just put in things cause it looks or sounds cool. I'm always impressed by the effort that, say, Pixar goes through after they decide on a setting or a theme for a movie.

 

[Agentsands77]

So am I disappointed that this steaming pile of crap is supposed to be Joker's origin? Yes.

It's not a steaming pile of crap. It's certainly in the top 25% of Batman stories. And it also gets points for being the first Joker origin to actually add to the mystique of the character, rather than take away from him.

 

[BubbaGump]

It's not a steaming pile of crap.

So I can't have my opinion anymore?

It's certainly in the top 25% of Batman stories.

And who made you in charge of categorizing the top 25% Batman stories? And what would that 25% be?

And it also gets points for being the first Joker origin to actually add to the mystique of the character, rather than take away from him.

Alan Moore's flashbacks didn't have enough mystique for ya?

 

[Agentsands77]

Alan Moore's flashbacks didn't have enough mystique for ya?

I think that's the weakest Joker origin to date. Makes sense within the themes of THE KILLING JOKE, but is totally unbelievable. No normal dude can go through a tragedy of that sort and suddenly become the most dangerous, sadistic, and brilliant villain of all time. Just doesn't happen.

He had to have some of those characteristics beforehand. That's why this origin works. This guy is insane (to a lesser degree than he will end up), but he's also remarkably brilliant.

But that's me. I'm in the Joker had-to-be-somewhat-crazy before the chemical bath, camp. Whether he was a natural-born sociopath ("On a Summer Day, He Was") or just freak of nature that the chemical bath unleashed (Grant Morrison, ARKHAM ASYLUM and BATMAN #663).

 

[Superman4ever]

Which would actually be a fair amount of people....but I digress. I always find it more admirable when writers/artists do their research and don't just put in things cause it looks or sounds cool. I'm always impressed by the effort that, say, Pixar goes through after they decide on a setting or a theme for a movie.

Well I really don't see the major problem. The loci on MHC are highly polymorphic and are used in population studies AND in forensics all the time (to establish ID of individuals and tissues).

So the author is correct.

 

[BubbaGump]

No normal dude can go through a tragedy of that sort and suddenly become the most dangerous, sadistic, and brilliant villain of all time. Just doesn't happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Traumatic_Stress_Disorder

Happens all the time with war veterans and even regular people as well.

 

[Agentsands77]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Traumatic_Stress_Disorder

Happens all the time with war veterans and even regular people as well.

Huh? Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is entirely different from what the Joker is. PTSD does not turn human beings into full-blown murderous psycopaths with motivations like the Joker's.

Furthermore, it is held throughout the Joker's mythos that he is an undiagnosable, incomprehensible being far beyond the reach of psychiatric understanding. He does not fit the mode of the standard serial killer or madman. He is something other. That's one of the great aspects of his character. Therefore, giving him a cause as mundane as tragedy just doesn't seem to cut it.

It didn't wor for Hannibal Lecter in HANNIBAL RISING, either.

 

[Joker]

So I can't have my opinion anymore?

just a guess here, but maybe if you didnt go into a thread about a story arc that a majority of people have been enjoying, call it a steaming pile or crap like your opinion was the be all end all, and then have arguments to back it up that are pretty much crap, people would be more accepting of your opinion...I love when people use this argument, as most of the time before they go "stop attacking my opinion!" they were attacking someone elses before hand, ala "So am I disappointed that this steaming pile of crap is supposed to be Joker's origin? Yes."

 

[Superman4ever]

Furthermore, it is held throughout the Joker's mythos that he is an undiagnosable, incomprehensible being far beyond the reach of psychiatric understanding. He does not fit the mode of the standard serial killer or madman. He is something other. That's one of the great aspects of his character. Therefore, giving him a cause as mundane as tragedy just doesn't seem to cut it.

Nicely said!

 

[BubbaGump]

just a guess here, but maybe if you didnt go into a thread about a story arc that a majority of people have been enjoying, call it a steaming pile or crap like your opinion was the be all end all, and then have arguments to back it up that are pretty much crap, people would be more accepting of your opinion...I love when people use this argument, as most of the time before they go "stop attacking my opinion!" they were attacking someone elses before hand, ala "So am I disappointed that this steaming pile of crap is supposed to be Joker's origin? Yes."

Now before we argue any further, just remember that you were in my situation not too long ago. You called a story arc—Broken City (which a majority of people enjoyed)—a steaming pile of crap, all the while giving pretty lame arguments yourself. So now that you’re enjoying being on the other side of things, just keep in mind that I am you right now: not enjoying a book and saying why I don’t in my own to-the-point way, while being told my opinion sucks by just about everyone else.

I understand we have different opinions. I respect that. I just don’t respect the book, which is why I called it a steaming pile of crap. I’m not calling you a steaming pile of crap, but you seem to take it that way. I understand that the Joker is your favorite character (hence the username), but come on. Let's just be cool. No need to call anyone a dumbass over a little mistake concerning prose.

And who hasn’t been hypocritical on the Hype? That’s like saying no one on this site *********es.

 

[Joker]

Now before we argue any further, just remember that you were in my situation not too long ago. You called a story arc—Broken City (which a majority of people enjoyed)—a steaming pile of crap, all the while giving pretty lame arguments yourself. So now that you’re enjoying being on the other side of things, just keep in mind that I am you right now: not enjoying a book and saying why I don’t in my own to-the-point way, while being told my opinion sucks by just about everyone else.

I understand we have different opinions. I respect that. I just don’t respect the book, which is why I called it a steaming pile of crap. I’m not calling you a steaming pile of crap, but you seem to take it that way. I understand that the Joker is your favorite character (hence the username), but come on. Let's just be cool. No need to call anyone a dumbass over a little mistake concerning prose.

And who hasn’t been hypocritical on the Hype? That’s like saying no one on this site *********es.

you know you could have just said "lets agree to disagree" the first time and saved us both alot of trouble...all this arguing wasted

 

[BubbaGump]

you know you could have just said "lets agree to disagree" the first time and saved us both alot of trouble...all this arguing wasted

Ha. Always put a smiley at the end to ease the tension.

 

[Joker]

Ha. Always put a smiley at the end to ease the tension.

Stop stealing my emoticon gimmick damn it! it's mine!




I'm not joking, stop it

 

[Mr. LOL]

Can't wait to continue with this series. This is the first origin for the Joker that actually enhances the character's mystery, rather than reducing it.

I totally agree. While I love TKJ, I do find it to be overrated. This as you describe doesn't reduce the legend or mystique to the character ... it literally magnifies it. How did this guy Jack get to this point? He's an ultra-skilled bank robber, but he still doesn't feel he has a purpose. He ends up being a dead eye shooter when he finally decides to get his first taste of action. I don't know, but I like where this is heading alot more than any other Joker origin I've read.

 

[Mr. LOL]

Huh? Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is entirely different from what the Joker is. PTSD does not turn human beings into full-blown murderous psycopaths with motivations like the Joker's.

Furthermore, it is held throughout the Joker's mythos that he is an undiagnosable, incomprehensible being far beyond the reach of psychiatric understanding. He does not fit the mode of the standard serial killer or madman. He is something other. That's one of the great aspects of his character. Therefore, giving him a cause as mundane as tragedy just doesn't seem to cut it.

It didn't wor for Hannibal Lecter in HANNIBAL RISING, either.

Complete OWNAGE. Nice work, captain.

 

[BubbaGump]

Complete OWNAGE. Nice work, captain.

Way to get back at me.

 

[Mr. LOL]

Way to get back at me.

Huh? Dude are you serious? For the love of god let it go ... this has nothing to do with that. I'm saying in terms of what we're talking about, he just kicked you in the nuts with all that info he dropped on your ass. I had to give the man his respect. Just as you should probably suck up your pride and do the same.

 

[BubbaGump]

Huh? Dude are you serious? For the love of god let it go ... this has nothing to do with that. I'm saying in terms of what we're talking about, he just kicked you in the nuts with all that info he dropped on your ass. I had to give the man his respect. Just as you should probably suck up your pride and do the same.

That argument was resolved days ago. Fact is I let it go already and yet you're back digging it up from the ashes for some backlash because you started a pointless thread. It's useless arguing. I don't take Nazi jokes seriously, you make stupid threads. End it here.

 

[Mr. LOL]

I'm not digging old stuff. You're taking things way too personally. haha

Don't you remember me making a thread (didn't know about this one, sorry I'm new) and in doing so you felt compelled once again to go under citizens arrest mode and let me know there already was a thread discussing this topic of conversation. I was interested in discussing this book, cause I just read the first issue, and that's why I came in here. I'm on the very last page and I was reading what people wrote and replying. That's why I was in here. Don't make yourself feel special like I was in here b/c of you. If anything, you're the one trailing my posts. I started a pointless thread on accident. Not on purpose. I'm here to talk about this kick ass origin for the J-man. So hop off my nuts, Bubba. I know you just can't resist waiting for me to drop the soap. So please, get a stepping while we discuss this story arch.

Anyway, this story manages to combine all the cool elements to prior origins.

Does pre-Joker have family toubles and / or money troubles? Possibly.

Does pre-Joker have experience in some form or fashion with the criminal element? Yes.

Is pre-Joker looking for his rightful calling? Yes.

Is pre-Joker talented, or in the know about things that are either helping the mob or other criminal organizations? Yes.

Does Joker play off the theatricality angle origin similar to what we might see via BB and TDK? Yes... his inner criminal artist is obviously inspired by his first sight of Batman. Thus also playing into that possible origin of "escelation" and Batman having an in-direct hand in creating this menace known as the Joker.

All while still not answering the questions fully, but leaving enough open to interpretation. Which so far is making this story outstanding. Can't wait to see where they go from here.

 

[Nepenthes]

Haven't read the thread, just jumping in.....


I was completely against this idea when I first head about it..... but after this issue I'm quite pleasantly surprised. It just seems right and I can;t wait to see what develops.

Yeah it is strange that the origin is being done by a guy new to comics. It feels like he doesnt deserve to do this, that it should go to someone established and respected in the industry. But if it's a great story then hey what the hell.


Also, depending how this turns out it may not necessarily contradict The Killing Joke. I'm betting this version of "Jack" will eventually have his "one bad day" (the accident) that truly flips him for good. So uou can look TKJ as Joker making excuses for his himself and imagining a past in which HE was a victim. Which I like because personally, I don't really think of the Joker as insane, he's just a bastard. He wanted a normal, happy life (symbolized in his own mind by a wife and baby) but he was led down a different path by a cruel world. He was only good at one thing, crime, and then came Batman and the accident. Deep down, at one point in time he wanted to be a happy citizen, but after the madness of his life the only way to find happiness was to become the Joker and everything that entails.

 

[Mladen]

The mystery is always more interesting than the reveal, and the truth behind the Joker BEFORE the skin-bleaching vat is probably a lot less interesting than the possibilities. To many of us, we consider the character's real birth to be at the moment of change, not before. The same way that Bruce Wayne really did die with his parents on that street as a child, replaced by the new creature called Batman.

I personally like the mystery and the conflicting stories, but then again I'm happy for writers to attempt to tackle a character's origin if it casts some original light on the character's personality and motivation. Alan Moore did it well, in a way that makes sense and outlines the parallels between the two characters. But if its just a marketing gimmick, or if its just written in for the sake of having an origin to please some pedantic fans, its worthless. Whatever they come up with for Confidential, it won't change the fundamental form of the character since his pre-vat origin is NOT a vital part of his character. Batman's parents HAVE to be shot in a pointless mugging, Superman HAS to be a farmboy orphan whose planet was destroyed. Change these parts and they cease to be the same character. Joker can get his smile, skin and hair from anywhere, he's still the Joker.

I'm happy for DC to do it again a different way if there's a POINT to it in the context of the story besides boosting sales. Either way, is it really that much of a deal? This'll only be 'official' until the next character revamp or history changing event anyway. Its all stories, and if it makes sense in the context of its own story its all good.

The character is made of ALL of the parts shown to us in the comics (and tv shows and films), not just whatever DC has deemed to be 'official continuity' for this month. The Joker is a zany loony toon, a harmless trickster, an antisocial homicidal maniac, a technological genius, a comedian, a pathetic loser, a vicious gangster, and a criminal mastermind all at once. He's cesar romero, jack nicholson, mark hamill, and heath ledger rolled into one. He's a grin with white makeup and a laugh, born from a culture which fears chaos, demands celebrity, and embraces the mythic.

damn got off topic. But yeah I'll be reading it with interest and an open mind... There's no reason not to

 

[Arkard]

Here is why I had a problem with it from the begining.
I loved to look at the Joker as the total opposite of Batman. Batman stands for rationale, logic, justice, being good and organised. The Joker cares for chaos, mayhem, fun and insanity. Both are geniuses but one is a dark silent singular man, the other an outgoing colorful clown. And to this extent, I felt their origins also covered this duality.
Bruce Wayne was thrown in into a totally new situation by the assasination of his parents. He however, had a choice. He chosed a noble path, trained so hard and we got to watch.
The Joker however was in an accident started by his own fault. He planned to get away through those chemicals but he never planned for what has happened. In a way, his mind snapped and he became the Joker. No hard work, no training, no details. We had no idea what was going on through his head, we just could speculate, while with Batman, we were told everything through variosu graphic novels and TAS.

However, so far, I am really enjoying Confidential. This Joker is actually interesting and so pleasently unbalanced but not in any cliche sort of way. He is... so fun. And as I always say, come next Crisis this origin will count for nothing.