Dear God. Stick To The Source Material

[Keymaker]

FF have 40 years of history with tonns of comics and variations of characters.
300 was what? A graphic novel or a series with a bunch of issues? In any case...it's easier to faithfully adapt something that hasn't got so much history.

 

[HoratioRome]

The studio had the origins of 5 characters to deal with and the way they scripted Doom made the most sense to keep the story going. There's too much history to go over in one film. The movie would have to be 5 hours long or longer to tell the whole history of Doom and tackle the Fantastic Four and their story too. X-Men could have had the same problem except they did NOT start out with an origin film at all. Would you have preferred the FF started off with them already having their powers and Doom was a Latverian Dictator with his empire in hand? That would be nice for long time FF fans but the FF is not known to the general public like Batman, Superman, etc...It has a long history and most people have heard of them but today's younger generation didn't grow up with Fantastic Four films like we did with Superman, Batman, etc...and FF never had the appeal of Spiderman to cross all boundries.

dude you drive me nuts, you are so absolutely wrong is ridiculous. You know what? if Story couldn't do it then Fox should hire ME, cause I sure could.
btw, you don't have to show everything to show everything in a movie. You can create whole histories with one single line.
you're just determined to excuse and accept whatever they throw at you.


is there ANYTHING that you would find terrible in the sequel?
Anything that would make you say "they ****ed this up"?

go on record now

 

[wobbly]

Though I'm all for the studios keeping closer to the source I don't think 300 is a good example to hold up in favour of that for a couple of reasons: 1) 300 is based on a real historical event and 2) the subject matter is so different that it really doesn't compare beyond saying both FF & 300 were drawn first. Other than that, very much apples & oranges.

Anyway's, with that said I'm also getting rather tired of the excuses that are made for the things they really did screw up royally with the first FF film ...Seriously, (and I'm only focusing on the one issue here, there are more...) there is no good reason for what they did to Doctor Doom, only weak excuses that show how utterly gutless all involved in that were.

Will we see a similarly spineless effort this time?
Well, so far they are at least making mostly* the right noises, and the look of the surfer is damn near spot on for me. Story-wise though...will have to wait and see.

*I say mostly as though the promised changes to Doom do sound promising, the vagueness concerning how Galactus will be portrayed doesn't fill me with confidence, especially when I hear them use the dreaded term 'Ultimate' in relation to him.

 

[MattC]

The studio had the origins of 5 characters to deal with and the way they scripted Doom made the most sense to keep the story going. There's too much history to go over in one film. The movie would have to be 5 hours long or longer to tell the whole history of Doom and tackle the Fantastic Four and their story too. X-Men could have had the same problem except they did NOT start out with an origin film at all. Would you have preferred the FF started off with them already having their powers and Doom was a Latverian Dictator with his empire in hand? That would be nice for long time FF fans but the FF is not known to the general public like Batman, Superman, etc...It has a long history and most people have heard of them but today's younger generation didn't grow up with Fantastic Four films like we did with Superman, Batman, etc...and FF never had the appeal of Spiderman to cross all boundries.

I get what you are saying, but I disagree. They made the movie what they wanted it to be, but it could have worked with Doom's origin how it was in the comics (and it may have been a lot better). I don't see any excuse for changing the origin, they obviously just didn't find a good enough writer to script it that way (or decided they wanted to go a different route). They wouldn't have to show the contents of every comic, or the whole history even, but it would have set the franchise off on a different tone. Something that I think may have appealed more to people because it would have been more overtly unique from the other CBM's.

I would have loved to have watched the genesis of Doom how it was originally intended, and I believe it had a lot more depth to it than the version we got. People would have connected to his humanity (and the tragic loss of his father) and then seen him transform into what he became based on what happened to him, always rooted in the "innocent" child that he had transformed from. All we got in the first movie was a smarmy billionaire, no depth of character at all.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the movie, but after reading the comics (since seeing the film) I was really disappointed about the fact that so much great stuff was cut out, stuff that would have been really cool cinematically, and made a lot more sense.

 

[HoratioRome]

t:

I am curious about something though Horatio, Julian's and Tim's statements on Doom seem very different from what your friend posted in the stutue's forum.

to be honest I've lost faith in that guy. he refuses to give me anymore details or info on what he saw but his excuses make no sense. I'm sure there is plenty he could tell me which would not jeapordize his friend yet confirm that he indeed saw it, but he won't. The main reason I believed him was that I saw no reason for him to lie. I guess we'll have to see

On the changes in FF, the FF is a property that is over several volumes and years. The funny thing about the complaining about the source material is that the Thing in the first movie is the original Jack Kirby Thing.

this is a mistake that is frequently made by people.
first off, we can all agree that there must be 2 changes made in superhero movies.
1-they must be contemporized
2-they cannot put 40 years into 2 hrs.

they wouldn't have to though. All any superhero movie has to do is choose 1 major story from the comics and tell that story. They may draw certain other things from the 40 year history or omit some things, but no one expects them to tell 10 or more years in 2 hrs.
Spider-man did it, and did it just right.

So when we talk about the source material there is a lot of complexity. So in essence we really are talking about the definitive Thing.

So now we have a problem. The definitive Thing is different, but then you also have the new Ultimate Universe. And the question in the minds of the movie studios is this do you pay any attention to those fans.

The 616 fans would say no, but those books are very popular.

So it comes down to who do you please and the truth is you will never be able to please all the people, fans all of the time.

you're right it is complex and we are dealing with the definitive Thing rather than the "original" thing. as far as the ultimate, the best way to look at this is to ask one self WHICH version is responsible for the demand for films to be made after so many decades? The key is to look for the magic, the thing that worked and captured people's imagination. That could happen in 2 years or in 50 years. I think if you look at it that way the answer is clearly the definitive (not original) 616 Fantastic Four universe. The ultimates may be "hot" be they have not proven themselves to be what the FF are. many "hot" things come and go, and right now 616 books are once again starting to overtake UA books. so we don't know yet.

The reality is that FF is much more difficult to do. The special effects were harder to do. I wanted the 616 definitive FF too, but I can see where changes were made due to the uncertainty. The studio, Fox has not had the success with these movies that Sony has had and it suggests that they are more cash strapped or less of a risktaker.

actually I disagree with that. What makes the FF anymore difficult than any other sci fi or superhero movie? In fact the FF movie didn't have a "special effects" problem. It had an execution problem. Real Doom is no more difficult to make that the "doom" they came up with. I've seen a TON of asian flicks which acheived much cooler FX than most hollywood flicks for 1/4 the budget. and you can tell a very quiet even low budget FF story that is powerfull and effective.

However as Advanced Dark said you can see how much effort has been put into FF2, they know now they can make the money. And it is being reflected in the production values, many of us see that.

I do see some improvements but as I said I also see more of the same.

However AD, purple eater Galactus would work, believe it. However to be safe I say use the UA version, it is already out there and it has already gotten huge approval.

oh no, you just lost me there. NO Ultimate Galactus, PLEASE. that would be as bad as the gas thing,

 

[Malus]

Though I'm all for the studios keeping closer to the source I don't think 300 is a good example to hold up in favour of that for a couple of reasons: 1) 300 is based on a real historical event and 2) the subject matter is so different that is really doesn't compare beyond saying both FF & 300 were drawn first. Other than that, very much apples & oranges.

Anyway's, with that said I'm also getting rather tired of the excuses that are made for the things they really did screw up royally with the first FF film ...Seriously, (and I'm only focusing on the one issue here, there are more...) there is no good reason for what they did to Doctor Doom, only weak excuses that show how utterly gutless all involved in that were.

Will we see a similarly spineless effort this time?
Well, so far they are at least making mostly* the right noises, and the look of the surfer is damn near spot on for me. Story-wise though...will have to wait and see.

*I say mostly as though the promised changes to Doom do sound promising, the vagueness concerning how Galactus will be portrayed doesn't fill me with confidence, especially when I hear them use the dreaded term 'Ultimate' in relation to him.

Having seen the "restored Doom" confronting Ben, I'm concerned that he will not look like classic Doom while wielding the Surfer's power.
I wonder if he'll even ride the board?

 

[wobbly]

Having seen the "restored Doom" confronting Ben, I'm concerned that he will not look like classic Doom while wielding the Surfer's power.
I wonder if he'll even ride the board?

From what Julian has said in a recent interview, he will be riding the board and is probably wearing the armor too (this is assuming I've read his comments right and he ain't yanking our chains).

 

[Hunter Rider]

From what Julian has said in a recent interview, he will be riding the board and is probably wearing the armor too (this is assuming I've read his comments right and he ain't yanking our chains).

 

[echostation]

that and the whole thing about wanting to create new forms of advertising materials... they need to be careful on that and stop trying to break new envelopes and tearing new ground, and hopefully keep within the realm of fiction... Afterall THIS IS FICTION and it needs to be respected by not drawing in real people... professionals for instance.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Oh god

 

[Malus]

From what Julian has said in a recent interview, he will be riding the board and is probably wearing the armor too (this is assuming I've read his comments right and he ain't yanking our chains).

Hmm. If that includes the iron mask, I'll be pleased. Surprised, too.

 

[Kelly]

that and the whole thing about wanting to create new forms of advertising materials... they need to be careful on that and stop trying to break new envelopes and tearing new ground, and hopefully keep within the realm of fiction... Afterall THIS IS FICTION and it needs to be respected by not drawing in real people... professionals for instance.

Back on ignore with you.....

 

[wobbly]

Hmm. If that includes the iron mask, I'll be pleased. Surprised, too.

Same here.

Personally, based on the various bits & pieces I've read and that one pic of McMahon and Chiklis the way I hope they are taking Doom is this:

The only way for his people to wake him from his fused state is to cure him ala Reeds chamber (which we have seen does work) from the first film. Once cured and enraged he rips off the real metal mask taking most of his now human face with it....so though it's via a very roundabout route, we at last have a very human and badly scarred (by his own hand too) Doctor Doom (this might be the first of the 3 looks he apparently has)

From there the scene where he is appearing sans mask might be Victor simply wearing a mask of his former face over his scarred one (this might be the second look, used to ingratiate himself on the FF to get closer to the Surfer perhaps?).

The third and final look would (presumably) be Doom in full armor either before or after he has swiped the Surfer's power.

 

[Advanced Dark]

That's in my opinion the end of the film. I think when he gets the surfer's board he can syphon energy through it and he uses the power cosmic to change himself somehow back to normal as far as his looks under the mask. Then the f4 and the ss somehow trick him off his board and all of his powers are now lost. The thing then grabs him wanting to kill him..but doesn't. Earth saved, doom stopped.

 

[Advanced Dark]

From what Julian has said in a recent interview, he will be riding the board and is probably wearing the armor too (this is assuming I've read his comments right and he ain't yanking our chains).

Not probably...

Spoiler

will be. He said he was wearing the armor while dangling 60ft above the ground on half a surfboard.

 

[Malus]

Not probably...

Spoiler

will be. He said he was wearing the armor while dangling 60ft above the ground on half a surfboard.

How did this go unreported til now?
Good news!

 

[echostation]

that will be a terrific special effect shot to see Doom's cape soar thru the air as he's on the board with the depowered surfer down! that would be so immensely cool... i wonder how surfer gets his board back

 

[wobbly]

That's in my opinion the end of the film. I think when he gets the surfer's board he can syphon energy through it and he uses the power cosmic to change himself somehow back to normal as far as his looks under the mask. Then the f4 and the ss somehow trick him off his board and all of his powers are now lost. The thing then grabs him wanting to kill him..but doesn't. Earth saved, doom stopped.

IF they do it that way I will be royally ticked off

Seriously, I took a lot of heart from Julian saying he starts the film by ripping off the original mask and messing his face up as a result (implying he might be human at that stage) so after fixing that big error from the first film they might then go and undo that correction?

I do hope not: Whatever happens to him within this film he should end it as the 'classic Doom' Story has promised. To show him for a little while then take it all away again would be plain stupid and just p#ss the fans off all over again.

Might well be a moot point though: As they have kept things under wraps very well this time round is it really likely they will reveal a big spoiler pic from a scene right near the end? (I know we have the victorious FF in 'Chinatown' pic but them winning in the end is a given anyway, Doom's condition at any stage isn't.)

 

[50yroldfffan]

More complaining Horatio? My God? Should the FF be flying around in a Bathtub like in the source? Have you ever even read the source? Go back and read the first dozen or so issues of the FF and try to imagine word for word that being translated into a film in this day and time. Yeah right...it'd do worse than Bloodrayne. Might be nostalgic to look at but the movies are not the same as 4 color comics. Everything I've seen from FF2 so far is very positive and it looks amazing. If the studios ever listened to fanboys demands all of these Superhero movies would flop. Nobody seemed to complain to Bryan Singer about his X-Men and that source material which was completely messed with. Look at Batman Begins another film where the souce material was not stuck with. Those films were great to alot of people. Look at Spider-Man putting Gwen in the 3rd film after MJ, organic shooters, etc...

Hellmistress makes a great point too. So while all the angry fanboys get riled up making demands and threatening boycotts the world still turns and these movies are making alot of money because most people could care less about staying exactly true to the source...because they don't even know the source in that much detail.

I guess from reading your post I should make clear what I mean by source material. For me and I think most FF fans familar with the comic would say it's best run off issues and Jack and Stans best work was around FF issue 41 with the intro of the Inhumans and peaking with the Galactus Silver Surfer story and Doctor Doom stealing the surfers powers issues. Those two stories changed the world of comics both in story telling and in art. The comic then settled into a great run of stories and art with Kirby, creating wonderfull machines, costumes and characters up until around issue 72 when the creative team began to lose some steam and Jacks work started to suffer (probably because of his unhappiness with Marvel and the repitition of doing the comic).
Thats the source material they needed to focus on ( I know water under the bridge) in the first movie so please don't qoute us fan boys about the early issues and bath tubs lol.
I'm happy to see thats were the second movie is headed now and I'm happy with what I've seen of the Surfer but if you follow the logic of the "it would look to goofy on the big screen crowd" the Surfer would be coming to earth on a Greyhound bus and not a Surf Board ha ha.
Screw the mass's great movies aren't made for the mass's they are made for the art! they are made with passion and love of the material. That has to be first! great art isn't made only for money and yes movies are art as proved by Sin City and 300. So let ther be art! I hope for big things in this second movie but I don't expect them.

 

[Nokio]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come on strong or rude. and I know that it's too late to do anything about the FF now.
But I just came from 300 last night, and I'm now learning that it will most likely set a new BO record, and all I have to say to all those who accept and support when hollywood changes things, is we as fans have to DEMAND that they stick to the source material.
Because when they do, it duplicates the magic that inspired the movie to be made in the first place.
Frank Miller recognizes that the closer they stick to the source material the more successful the movies are, and it's time WE the fans did the same.
TRUST IT.
purple outfitted, skirt wearing, planet devouring, antena helmet wearing GIANT.
Rocky, speedo wearing (yes I SAID SPEEDO), big brow having creature.
LET DOOM BE DOOM!
duplicating Stan lee's story (meaning no Doom in a Galactus/SS story)
anything short of that TAKES AWAY from what it could be
oh this is killing me.

You are so correct. Doom shouldn't be in F42, but he is. it appears they are meshing two storlines together. The coming of galactus and When Doom steals the SS's power. I'm not dead set against it, cause i really believe that in good hands it can be pulled off, but with the current studio and creative team? I'm just fearful of this movie. It's going to be more of the same of FOX raping the heck out of the comic and changing shyt for no purpose what so ever.

X3 was very evident of that despite me enjoying it on an average moviegoer level. Yes I have major gripes with x3. A character like Phoenix needs the entire film devoted to her. I do feel that the Phoenix and cure storyline could've worked together, but it depends on who's hands the material is in. Will we get the same with f42? I'd be surprised if the film works out good. Despite being pleased with what i've seen so far, looks can be decieving. I may not know what the final outcome will be regarding F42 until opening day, but i'm 95 percent certain that I'm going to be let down with Galactus. One of the greatest fictional characters ever created(yes he is and just like phoenix) and he's going to be short changed and screwed uped. My only spark of hope is that it don't be as bad as I think, but he's not going to get proper treatment, that much is an absolute.

 

[HoratioRome]

IF they do it that way I will be royally ticked off

Seriously, I took a lot of heart from Julian saying he starts the film by ripping off the original mask and messing his face up as a result (implying he might be human at that stage) so after fixing that big error from the first film they might then go and undo that correction?

I do hope not: Whatever happens to him within this film he should end it as the 'classic Doom' Story has promised. To show him for a little while then take it all away again would be plain stupid and just p#ss the fans off all over again.

Might well be a moot point though: As they have kept things under wraps very well this time round is it really likely they will reveal a big spoiler pic from a scene right near the end? (I know we have the victorious FF in 'Chinatown' pic but them winning in the end is a given anyway, Doom's condition at any stage isn't.)

my question is what's the hold up? Story has already announced that Doom will be "full Doom". Everyone knows what full DOOM looks like.
they obviously already created the costume and shot the scenes.

So why not just show it?
They've shown surfer and the FF and the FFcar, so why not Doom?


That's why I'lll believe it's "full Doom" when I see it.

 

[HoratioRome]

You are so correct. Doom shouldn't be in F42, but he is. it appears they are meshing two storlines together. The coming of galactus and When Doom steals the SS's power. I'm not dead set against it, cause i really believe that in good hands it can be pulled off, but with the current studio and creative team? I'm just fearful of this movie. It's going to be more of the same of FOX raping the heck out of the comic and changing shyt for no purpose what so ever.

X3 was very evident of that despite me enjoying it on an average moviegoer level. Yes I have major gripes with x3. A character like Phoenix needs the entire film devoted to her. I do feel that the Phoenix and cure storyline could've worked together, but it depends on who's hands the material is in. Will we get the same with f42? I'd be surprised if the film works out good. Despite being pleased with what i've seen so far, looks can be decieving. I may not know what the final outcome will be regarding F42 until opening day, but i'm 95 percent certain that I'm going to be let down with Galactus. One of the greatest fictional characters ever created(yes he is and just like phoenix) and he's going to be short changed and screwed uped. My only spark of hope is that it don't be as bad as I think, but he's not going to get proper treatment, that much is an absolute.

yup I agree,
Personaly I enjoyed X3. I don't consider it or any of the Xmovies to be THE x-men but the film was fun and enjoyeable.
just not a good xmen movie.
Having said that, there is no doubt that mixing the 2 storylines took away from each storyline. Especially the Phoenix saga.
I'm afraid that this is exactly what will happen with FF2.
even if it's good, it won't be as good as it should be.

 

[Nokio]

Everyone would have liked that but we can't do anything about that. The studio played it safe with a very difficult franchise. Difficult in translating to the big screen, and it was a franchise that had zero mass media exposure so the studio had no clue how the public would take it.

I liked who Doom was in the film and his motives, and I also like how he became Doom. I thought it was very creative and made the rivalry even more tense between Doom and Reed. That base was important to set up the next film. Doom really wasn't even in the first film. He was just "born" in a way and clearly didn't have time to create Doombots, build an empire, etc...

To me a 60's version of the FF on film in today's time would make only FF fans/purists happy and the box office would fail and we'd have no chance of seeing the characters in any form for a long time. Things look like they have greatly improved in this second film.

You're right AD. I have no problem with DOOM being tied in with the F4's origin for a movie, but as i've said before it's depending on who's handling the film rather or not it would work, and in F4 is just didn't work. It was poorly written. The only thing that was right was Johnny and Ben. Sue was fine, and Reed gave no hint that he was the smartest man on the planet. I don't even want to get into that mess of a movie in terms of correctness.

I can't agree with you on doom's orgin not working in a film. It could it just depends on who's telling it. The problem however is that Doom would need his own movie to set up his story. I just don't see a way of that and the f4 in to a 2 hour film. Could be done, but something is going to get short changed.

 

[Nokio]

FF have 40 years of history with tonns of comics and variations of characters.
300 was what? A graphic novel or a series with a bunch of issues? In any case...it's easier to faithfully adapt something that hasn't got so much history.

Exactly, and that's what people don't understand. 300 was great, but it had a simple plot and didn't have to explain orgins of the main characters. Like you said it had no history to bog it down, like the F4 does. Now despite F4's long history it could have been done better. Fox didn't give a shyt about the history of the characters. I just don't understand them people thinking? Why invest a 100 million dollars(still don't see where the money was spent) into a film and not try and go all out and maxmize your return? With more time and a better creative team or someone who understands the material they could have had a good movie on their hands, the xmen also for that matter, but neither was done correctly. The Xmen were better, but too much was wrong with both franchises.

 

[Advanced Dark]

How did this go unreported til now?
Good news!

It's not unreported it's in another thread here.

See the 2nd quoted story in the first post in this thread:

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267344