Defending the Pro-Registration Side

[Willowhugger]

I think it's interesting to speculate on the fact that I don't think the majority of the Pro-Registration side actually understands what the hell is going on. I had a fun RPGing moment in our Mutants and Masterminds game where one of the players spoke OOC about his opinion of Tony.

"I keep getting the feeling Stark is the Lando Calrissean of Civil War. He makes a conscious decision to betray his friends and support registration because he believes everyone will cooperate, make deals, and it'll keep everyone from being hunted down like rapid animals. Needs of the majority. What he gets is the fact that SHIELD intends for him to hunt everyone down like rapid animals anyway and in the words of Lord Vader....I am altering the deal."

While previous characterization is no indicator of future behavior, I get the impression Tony and the inner circle of Marvelites are unaware just how much the government seems to hate them. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Tony was the one whom arranged the deal for Speedball. Tony has a history of trusting the government more than he should, even in Armor Wars he seemed more brassed off the government stole from him rather than actually being unwilling to allow them to use his technology (though he is a control freak).

From Tony, its pretty much everyone in his "New Avengers" getting their info from him. What he doesn't seem to get though is that people are offended on a moral level by the act while he thinks its just something they have to deal with. Spiderman is probably outright ignorant of the majority of excesses involved. I doubt he knows of the Negative Zone prison.

Reed...I honestly can't think up a defense for him like Tony though.

 

[BrianWilly]

I agree, there is really no defending Reed's position in any way. There's little to no precedent in his character history to support an "ends justify the means" sort of approach for him, especially in cooperation with the government. And anyone with even a remote interest in social theory knows that they're just that: theory. If human behavior could be accurately predicted through models and statistics, then according to statistics we should have all become Marxists by now.

In Tony's conversation with Luke Cage in New Avengers, it seemed like he had a very clear idea of just what exactly the act entailed. You can definitely argue that Tony is thinking very optimistically -- perhaps too optimistically -- in believing that the government wouldn't also exploit the act for their own benefit. Perhaps he just didn't consider, or is choosing to ignore, the various extra "little details" that would come hand-in-hand with the registration act, and that pesky little slippery slope that the act would set into motion. But I don't think you can safely claim ignorance as an excuse for him; Tony Stark is incredibly educated, one of the most learned men in the world, and has had intimate dealings with the government going way back to his origin. He was the acting Secretary of Defense, for pete's sake; of all the superheroes, he should have the most understanding of what's going on.

However, as the latest issue of Frontline attested, Wonder Man definitely had no idea what in the frack he was actually signing up for.

 

[KevanG]

I still don't get why Reed and Tony are so self-righteous now. I mean Reed only became a superhero because he broke the law (stealing a space shuttle) and Tony acts like he's King **** of turd mountain because he has Spider-man on his side. I'm not a big fan of either but have they always been this way?

 

[Willowhugger]

My take on Tony Stark is he's trying to make everything all smooth by dotting the i's and being a Boy Scout about this. He's playing their game and hopes it'll make sure that everyone gets treated fairly. I don't think that Tony expected the government to essentially act in such a spectacularly bizarre manner. The real government in our world wouldn't be able to essentially switch gears so easily to Pinochet's Superheroism tactics but it seems clear the one in Marvel was well prepared ahead of time.

Last time Tony had the government against him, it destroyed his life and forced him into alcoholism. I think all he wants to do is make sure that none of his friends end up being hunted fugitives because you can't fight the kind of power he knows SHIELD can bring to bear (Tony Stark invented SHIELD with Nick Fury let's not forget). The irony is that they're not behaving rationally but acting in a manner of...well HYDRA rather than the USA.

I actually don't have as much problem with Reed as I might though because its Unthinkable Reed. If we can buy Doom is willing to kill Valaria, then we can buy Reed's characterization in that book series where he essentially disarms an entire nation against it's will while simultaneously forcing democracy on them that isn't wanted (which defeats the purpose of democracy). All so he could stop his family being endangered by a man whom could take over another nation at will. He also attempted to STEAL BEN'S SOUL FROM GOD. The irrationality of that last bit strikes me that the torture his family and he endured while Doom's prisoners severely unbalanced the man.

I think its okay at this point to assume the events of Unthinkable have actually driven Reed insane. It's just that no one has actually noticed it yet.

 

[Caliber]

I still don't get why Reed and Tony are so self-righteous now. I mean Reed only became a superhero because he broke the law (stealing a space shuttle) and Tony acts like he's King **** of turd mountain because he has Spider-man on his side. I'm not a big fan of either but have they always been this way?

Wow you sumed it up. Tony Stark has always acted like hes better than everyone and every hero. Reed has always been cold but never to this extreme.

 

[BrianWilly]

I actually don't have as much problem with Reed as I might though because its Unthinkable Reed. If we can buy Doom is willing to kill Valaria, then we can buy Reed's characterization in that book series where he essentially disarms an entire nation against it's will while simultaneously forcing democracy on them that isn't wanted (which defeats the purpose of democracy). All so he could stop his family being endangered by a man whom could take over another nation at will. He also attempted to STEAL BEN'S SOUL FROM GOD. The irrationality of that last bit strikes me that the torture his family and he endured while Doom's prisoners severely unbalanced the man.

I think its okay at this point to assume the events of Unthinkable have actually driven Reed insane. It's just that no one has actually noticed it yet.

But see, every single instance you've brought up from Unthinkable and Authoritive Action is an example of Reed being extremely emotional, acting out of passion as opposed to cold hard logic. Everything he did, he did out of love or fear or grief for the members of his family; essentially he was placing his heart over his brain. The things he did weren't necessarily morally wrong but they were definitely irrational.

Throughout this entire Civil War event, they've been trying to ram into our brains the notion that Reed is supporting the registration because he's so analytical and always puts logic ahead of emotions or something...and when you really look at Reed's history, that's just nonsense. He might be obsessive and stubborn about his work and even come across as deprecatingly arrogant a lot of time, but even it comes to the important things he's never had that sort of emotionless rationality.

 

[T'Jai]

Anybody read Fantastic Foes? Reed actually did the math and came to the statistical conclusion that the F4 (or at least a few members) would be killed at the current level of confict and resolution. It's why the negative prison was originally built Along those lines and seeing the stampford event his attitude isn't so irrational

 

[Harlekin]

Also, we were shown a clearly sane Reed after the events of Hereafter. Once Ben was back, he became good old Reed again.

 

[Willowhugger]

But see, every single instance you've brought up from Unthinkable and Authoritive Action is an example of Reed being extremely emotional, acting out of passion as opposed to cold hard logic. Everything he did, he did out of love or fear or grief for the members of his family; essentially he was placing his heart over his brain. The things he did weren't necessarily morally wrong but they were definitely irrational.

Throughout this entire Civil War event, they've been trying to ram into our brains the notion that Reed is supporting the registration because he's so analytical and always puts logic ahead of emotions or something...and when you really look at Reed's history, that's just nonsense. He might be obsessive and stubborn about his work and even come across as deprecatingly arrogant a lot of time, but even it comes to the important things he's never had that sort of emotionless rationality.

I think it's much easier to buy that Reed's actually being EXTREMELY emotional honestly. Think about it, Reed doesn't necessarily cope by breaking down. He copes by going all science-geek. I figure Jonny being in a coma is a wake up call to be all crazy again...and I for one didn't buy the whole "Reed's sane and happy" again.

Mostly because his behavior hasn't been spotless up until this point.

(then again, I bought Avengers Disassembled even though we had a perfectly logical nervous breakdown... YEARS after the fact)

I figure Reed BELIEVES what he's typing but he's avoiding Jonny not because he doesn't care but he DOESN'T WANT TO SEE HIM NOW.

 

[Harlekin]

That's actually a pretty good explanation, although I still don't agree with Reed still being unhinged from the Unthinkable/Authorative Action/Hereafter arcs.

 

[T'Jai]

Fantastic Foes... Am I the only one who read that book??

 

[roach]

But I don't think you can safely claim ignorance as an excuse for him; Tony Stark is incredibly educated, one of the most learned men in the world, and has had intimate dealings with the government going way back to his origin. He was the acting Secretary of Defense, for pete's sake; of all the superheroes, he should have the most understanding of what's going on.

this would mean that Marvel would write their heroes as they always acted but no one wants to read that

 

[Darthphere]

There is no defending the Pro-Reg Side.

 

[Anubis]

Fantastic Foes... Am I the only one who read that book??

I read it, but that idea about doing the math was implanted in his brain psioniclly by the Mad Thinker.

 

[T'Jai]

doesn't mean it didn't get him to thinkin

 

[Docker2.0]

There is no defending the Pro-Reg Side.

agreed! I'm tryin to listen to the excuses why but they are just that: excuses!

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

There is no defending the Pro-Reg Side.

Oh, there is.

 

[Vanguard07]

it's the first step down the slippery slope to fascism.
You can defend it if you want but that doesnt make it right.

 

[gildea]

it's the first step down the slippery slope to fascism.
You can defend it if you want but that doesnt make it right.

In the real world would you want someone with the power of say thor to operate 'as they like' ?

 

[Wolverazio]

In the real world would you want someone with the power of say thor to operate 'as they like' ?

No.

But I would hate even more for some with the power of Jean Grey to operate soley on the whims of the president at the time, against their will (remember everyone, mutants are forced into service to the presidency...and they can't avoid getting THEIR powers).

 

[BrianWilly]

No; if Thor went evil or started abusing his power or something, I'd want someone, maybe other superpowered "marvels," to stop him.

But the key word here being IF. Not before. You can't accuse people of crimes that they even haven't commited yet. Otherwise it's blatant profiling.

 

[gildea]

Definetly.

Though I think the law in 616 is unworkable in real life it's only for the forced into governement service part. I really would expect people to register their powers and IF they want to fight crime then work under the goverment.

 

[Wolverazio]

Definetly.

Though I think the law in 616 is unworkable in real life it's only for the forced into governement service part. I really would expect people to register their powers and IF they want to fight crime then work under the goverment.

This before or after all the government attempts to wipe out mutants?

Because sure, registering your powers sounds all well and good...unless it would provide the government an exact list, type and way to counter your powers....especially when they've been so keen on trying to wipe you out before...

 

[Xofenroht]

First of all, I don't see the government taking responsibility for anything. Peter Parker, Matt Murdock and Bruce Banner received their powers by accident. They were where they were supposed to be at that time and doing nothing wrong. Yet they still have to register or be prosecuted for it? I wouldn't be surprised if after all of this, the government starts MAKING their own super heroes by "chance" encounter just to build up their arsenal.

Secondly, someone mentioned Thor earlier. He's a god and he better NOT answer to any man-made government. If there were gods running around I really wouldn't care about "Who's keeping them in check". I can punch and bite people, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it. That same rule applies to those with super powers. Besides, saying you want Thor to be kept in check is like saying you want "Yahweh" kept in line too.

 

[Vanguard07]

In the real world would you want someone with the power of say thor to operate 'as they like' ?

Yes
Put quite simply i'd rather trust individuals by far than governments.
A group is only as smart as it's stupidest member. It's only as legit as it's most corrupt member. etc etc.
An individual is deffinitely the lesser of two evils.