Born Again Did it feel like you were watching Daredevil: season 4?

[XtremelyBaneful]

*testing out if the poll works now*

Okay, I have no idea how this thread is gonna go, but even though the cast and crew have stated that Born Again canon-wise is season 4 of the original Netflix show, I felt like there was too much of a lack of connection there.

-Vanessa getting her husband Kingpin & Bullseye free by flipping the narrative of Nadeem's dying declaration ruined season 3 for me

-Cherry (the character, not the actor) felt like a pathetic replacement of Brett Mahoney who had had a strong established connection with Foggy, Matt, AND his alter ego Daredevil

-Kirsten (the character, not the actress) felt like she was taking Marci's place and her relationship with Foggy was the strongest it ever was at the end of season 3

-Sister Maggie was nowhere to be found except for a throwaway line in the Yusuf Khan episode

-Leroy (the character, not the actor) felt like he was taking Turk's place and that's a character who actually had quite a bit of fan requests for returning.

I could go on and on with expanding, but I wanna how popular this thread gets.

What do you think?

 

[psylockolussus]

No. Its a different show and a different title. I didn't even try to remember what happened in the Netflix show.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

No. Its a different show and a different title. I didn't even try to remember what happened in the Netflix show.

I certainly tried remembering what happened in the Netflix show since it's the predecessor to this, but I think ultimately there was a failure to connect Born Again to it as much as that I could have for a season 1.

 

[Elayis]

Putting aside quality difference, the fundamental DNA of Born Again was essentially a reboot. It doesn't matter that Cox and D'Onofrio returned, or that they tried to paper over the changes with reshoots and new episodes.

If this was a continuation, or a true season four, they wouldn't need the obvious replacement characters that you mentioned. Any additional seasons will still be stuck with the choices that were made in Born Again's original form, like the absence of Netflix characters and narrative arcs.

It's cool if people enjoy Born Again (I emphatically do not), but there's no denying that it is not season four, as much as it tries to pretend otherwise. You can't watch the three seasons of the Netflix show and then jump into the Disney version without feeling whiplash.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Putting aside quality difference, the fundamental DNA of Born Again was essentially a reboot. It doesn't matter that Cox and D'Onofrio returned, or that they tried to paper over the changes with reshoots and new episodes.

If this was a continuation, or a true season four, they wouldn't need the obvious replacement characters that you mentioned. Any additional seasons will still be stuck with the choices that were made in Born Again's original form, like the absence of Netflix characters and narrative arcs.

It's cool if people enjoy Born Again (I emphatically do not), but there's no denying that it is not season four, as much as it tries to pretend otherwise. You can't watch the three seasons of the Netflix show and then jump into the Disney version without feeling whiplash.

You're right. I enjoyed Born Again BUT that's only because the hype of finally getting a follow-up to season 3 was coursing through me as I watched it.

The new showrunners got a lot of credit for saving the show from being better than it was going to be, but the end result is still kinda bad. Those guys are best known for Loki which in my opinion is overrated and Netflix's Daredevil is still way better than that.

If they really wanted to go all in on making BA be a true season 4, why didn't they bring back some of the old showrunners? Why just some of the stunt coordinators? Why didn't they bring back Royce Johnson to reshoot the scenes with Cherry like they did with Vanessa's re-recasting?

It's not just about these new characters that are insulting replacements of established characters, it's also about how season 3 was ruined.

Why the hell was Bullseye in a mental institution and not prison? I posted this in the general thread but I'll copy/paste it here about how Vanessa's logic of how Kingpin got free is bamboozling:

Judge : Fisk, you're going to prison for corrupting the FBI.

Kingpin: I should be released from custody.

Judge: and why the hell should we release a 2X convicted felon?

Kingpin: because the FBI is corrupted.

Judge: oh okay. You're released from custody.

Like WHAT?

 

[Elayis]

I think Daredevil's problems are tied into the larger MCU's lack of vision post Endgame.

Bringing back characters like Matt and Fisk so sporadically in trivial cameos before a proper Daredevil show really made a mess of things. Kingpin went from a grounded crime boss on Netflix to a cartoonish thug with superpowers on Hawkeye, and then whatever he was in Echo (I didn't watch it). So trying to make sense of a butchered timeline when they finally realized they had to make the Netflix show canon was always going to be next to impossible. Just like with shooting Born Again, they had to look at what they had and try to glue together all of the disparate pieces and hope for the best.

When it comes to casting and leaving out legacy characters, I can at least understand their position, even though the problem was entirely self inflicted. Once the six episodes had already been shot before the strikes, the choices that were made were essentially set in stone. Foggy had to be dead, Karen had to be MIA, and Matt was no longer Daredevil. It wouldn't be feasible for a TV show to basically reshoot everything, especially now that Disney is trying to reign things in, budget wise. As much as I would like people like Mahoney, Marci and Turk to show up, that ship sailed after shooting those first six episodes. It might be possible to bring them back in the future, but it with be as replacements for the new cast.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I think Daredevil's problems are tied into the larger MCU's lack of vision post Endgame.

Bringing back characters like Matt and Fisk so sporadically in trivial cameos before a proper Daredevil show really made a mess of things. Kingpin went from a grounded crime boss on Netflix to a cartoonish thug with superpowers on Hawkeye, and then whatever he was in Echo (I didn't watch it). So trying to make sense of a butchered timeline when they finally realized they had to make the Netflix show canon was always going to be next to impossible. Just like with shooting Born Again, they had to look at what they had and try to glue together all of the disparate pieces and hope for the best.

While trying to make sense of a butchered timeline was going to be next to impossible, it was still possible. It was the show's responsibility to delineate how the blip affected all these characters, but they decided to not factor the blip into the character arcs at all and instead just offered one line of dialogue from Vanessa, the person who ordered Nadeem's assassination to Bullseye, the person who assassinated Nadeem, who for some reason gets to go to a mental institution instead of prison with all his white privilege without even logically explaining how Kingpin got released and how that same logic would get him out.

It's the show's responsibility to delineate how Kingpin twisted the system to his will, just like the show did so from season 2 leading into season 3. One pathetic line of dialogue that ruins everything from the previous season isn't the way to do that.

When it comes to casting and leaving out legacy characters, I can at least understand their position, even though the problem was entirely self inflicted. Once the six episodes had already been shot before the strikes, the choices that were made were essentially set in stone. Foggy had to be dead, Karen had to be MIA, and Matt was no longer Daredevil. It wouldn't be feasible for a TV show to basically reshoot everything, especially now that Disney is trying to reign things in, budget wise. As much as I would like people like Mahoney, Marci and Turk to show up, that ship sailed after shooting those first six episodes. It might be possible to bring them back in the future, but it with be as replacements for the new cast.

To hell with Disney reigning things in budget-wise. I'm a superfan living paycheck to paycheck and they're a multi-billion dollar corporation. They should have properly dealt with their entirely self inflicted problem instead of releasing a half-assed season 4.

The show was already delayed a year because of the overhaul. If they had to delay it even more to reshoot and re-write more of it, then they should have done that. The ship carrying Mahoney, Marci, Maggie, and even Turk should have taken a sharp turn back from whence it came and more of the original shoot should have been scrapped.

If it's only a possibility and not even a high possibility that they'll be brought back for the future, then that already kills some of my hype for season 2.

 

[Elayis]

As unfortunate as it may be for fans like us, Disney is a business, and its main purpose is maximizing profits for its shareholders. There's only so much money you can sink into a project before it becomes untenable. That's why Brave New World is still such a mess despite numerous rewrites and reshoots.

Returning to Born Again after the strikes was all about triage, and rectifying the most egregious errors (recasting Vanessa, the absence of Karen, Foggy and Frank) in the simplest way possible. There's no scenario where, in addition to reshooting all of Vanessa's scenes, they'd also reshoot all of Cherry and Kirsten's as well, only to replace them with relatively minor characters from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about.

Fundamentally, I don't think it would matter, either, as both sets of showrunners that Born Again has had seem to be inept at executing a compelling and well crafted narrative. I found the original six episodes, as well the newly shot bookends, to be terrible, albeit for different reasons. Like most of the other MCU shows, Born Again is garbage, it just hurts more because it's a property that used to be so good, and something I had been emotionally invested in since 2015.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

As unfortunate as it may be for fans like us, Disney is a business, and its main purpose is maximizing profits for its shareholders. There's only so much money you can sink into a project before it becomes untenable.

Look man, I get it. The bottom line is that Disney is a business and ultimately all they care about is making as much money as possible (damn does capitalism suck). But that's exactly my point. I am just a guy, while Disney has endless amounts of money compared to me so if they aren't going to sink more money into a project to rectify stupid previous executive decisions, then they deserve the criticism that they're getting and going to get for trying to pretend they fixed it while not spending enough money to actually fix it.

That's why Brave New World is still such a mess despite numerous rewrites and reshoots.

I haven't had the pleasure of watching Cap4 yet. My wife is on a business trip though so she might get to watch it on a plane.

Returning to Born Again after the strikes was all about triage, and rectifying the most egregious errors (recasting Vanessa, the absence of Karen, Foggy and Frank) in the simplest way possible. There's no scenario where, in addition to reshooting all of Vanessa's scenes, they'd also reshoot all of Cherry and Kirsten's as well, only to replace them with relatively minor characters from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about.

I'm going to just go ahead and say that Brett is just as important as Vanessa, so the most egregious errors included leaving him out, and therefore weren't rectified. Need I remind you that Brett was the cop who arrested Vanessa's husband, and that's BOTH times her husband got caught. If Brett was a "relatively minor character from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about" then

-the script of Born Again wouldn't have a space for a cop character to have a pre-written history tying him to Matt, Karen, and Foggy which narratively feels like replacing a character who literally filled that space in every way shape and form and

-we wouldn't even be having this conversation

And also, Daredevil was probably the most highly anticipated MCUD+ show to ever debut. Why the hell should they triage this in the simplest way possible? This IP deserved all the effort Disney could chuck at it. If there is no scenario where they'd also reshoot at least Cherry's scenes, then there's no scenario where season 1 could be on par with the Netflix show in terms of quality storytelling or even purely connecting to the Netflix show.

Fundamentally, I don't think it would matter, either, as both sets of showrunners that Born Again has had seem to be inept at executing a compelling and well crafted narrative. I found the original six episodes, as well the newly shot bookends, to be terrible, albeit for different reasons. Like most of the other MCU shows, Born Again is garbage, it just hurts more because it's a property that used to be so good, and something I had been emotionally invested in since 2015.

It already doesn't matter because Born Again got great reviews on Metacritic and great scores on Rottentomatoes, and I'm gonna guess great viewership numbers too. I feel the energy in the bolded too. And that's why I can't be that forgiving to the showrunners or the show itself. It could have, should have, and would have been better if they took the necessary steps pointed out here. Bringing back more of the Netflix characters would have made THAT much more of a connection for us.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

And also, Daredevil was probably the most highly anticipated MCUD+ show to ever debut. Why the hell should they triage this in the simplest way possible? This IP deserved all the effort Disney could chuck at it. If there is no scenario where they'd also reshoot at least Cherry's scenes, then there's no scenario where season 1 could be on par with the Netflix show in terms of quality storytelling or even purely connecting to the Netflix show.

It already doesn't matter because Born Again got great reviews on Metacritic and great scores on Rottentomatoes, and I'm gonna guess great viewership numbers too. I feel the energy in the bolded too. And that's why I can't be that forgiving to the showrunners or the show itself. It could have, should have, and would have been better if they took the necessary steps pointed out here. Bringing back more of the Netflix characters would have made THAT much more of a connection for us.

As I understand it the viewership numbers are a fraction of what was wanted as the brand on ABC, Netflix and now Disney+ have been chasing Avengers level returns since Joss Whedon made the concept work. The battle between Disney wanting content to justify the purchase and get those who had the big saga on disc anyway to subscribe to Disney+ and the artist wanting to put on the best show.

The artist would have junked everything and brought back all of the Netflix reoccurring characters just as they "un recast" Vanessa. But the owner would then have to wait yet another year for fresh MCU content. Which left us with the make up job put on the corpse to play a Weekend at Bernie's before the dead show could hopefully rise like a phoenix.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

As I understand it the viewership numbers are a fraction of what was wanted as the brand on ABC, Netflix and now Disney+ have been chasing Avengers level returns since Joss Whedon made the concept work. The battle between Disney wanting content to justify the purchase and get those who had the big saga on disc anyway to subscribe to Disney+ and the artist wanting to put on the best show.

The artist would have junked everything and brought back all of the Netflix reoccurring characters just as they "un recast" Vanessa. But the owner would then have to wait yet another year for fresh MCU content. Which left us with the make up job put on the corpse to play a Weekend at Bernie's before the dead show could hopefully rise like a phoenix.

we don't know if it would take another year of delays to have had a better and more proper Born Again season 1 with all of the Netflix characters returning, but what I know is the end of product that is the actual season 1 is a disheveled mess and a massive disappointment. I'm surprised the viewership is lower than their expectations though. is it so low that the show basically flopped?

 

[Mike Murdock]

Every season of Daredevil had its own take because there was a different showrunner. This one felt like it was a step more away, but still felt like it had a lot of overlap. It some ways, what Netflix did was better. In some ways, this was better.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would say no. This felt like same universe but it's own thing. Think of like Twin Peaks and Twin Peak: The Return. The Return is distinctly its own thing, though it is picking up these same characters after a lengthy period of time