The Dark Knight Did Joker know Bruce Wayne was Batman?

[Nepenthes]

the Joker crashes Bruce Waynes party, and Bruce is nowhere to be found! instead Batrmnan shows up, right on cue, and dives out the window when Rachael is thrown out, leaving the rest of the part at the Jokers mercy. I'd be surpried if Joker didn;t start figuring things out.


BTW I realised the other day that's a massive hole in the film. What the hell happened up at the party after Batman landed on the car? It's not shown at all. Are we to assume the Joker just said good night and hopped back in the elevator? He didn't turn the place upside down looking for Harvey Dent? Bruce abandoned his own party to the joker.

 

[namtaB]

the Joker crashes Bruce Waynes party, and Bruce is nowhere to be found! instead Batrmnan shows up, right on cue, and dives out the window when Rachael is thrown out, leaving the rest of the part at the Jokers mercy.

I realised the other day that's a massive hole in the film. What the hell happened up at the party after Batman landed on the car? It's not shown at all. Are we to assume the Joker just said good night and hopped back in the elevator? He didn't turn the place upside down looking for Harvey Dent? Bruce abandoned his own party to the joker.

That's the whole point of the scene where the party guests are having sex in Wayne's bedroom. He goes into a "panic room" b/c Bruce Wayne is scared and he leaves the rest of the guests out there b/c he only wants to save his own butt. That couple vouches for this b/c they saw him hide out in what they thought was the panic room.

 

[StrainedEyes]

the Joker crashes Bruce Waynes party, and Bruce is nowhere to be found! instead Batrmnan shows up, right on cue, and dives out the window when Rachael is thrown out, leaving the rest of the part at the Jokers mercy.

I realised the other day that's a massive hole in the film. What the hell happened up at the party after Batman landed on the car? It's not shown at all. Are we to assume the Joker just said good night and hopped back in the elevator? He didn't turn the place upside down looking for Harvey Dent? Bruce abandoned his own party to the joker.

Joker didn't really want Harvey, he wanted Batman. Once he saw that Harvey wasn't easily there, and Batman jumped out the window, he really had no reason to be there. I suspect he took a few more shrimp, maybe unloaded his shotgun into the air, waved and left.

I highly doubt that Joker paid any attention, or cared, that Bruce Wayne wasn't in the room. If he even knows what Bruce looks like.

 

[namtaB]

the Joker crashes Bruce Waynes party, and Bruce is nowhere to be found! instead Batrmnan shows up, right on cue, and dives out the window when Rachael is thrown out, leaving the rest of the part at the Jokers mercy.

I realised the other day that's a massive hole in the film. What the hell happened up at the party after Batman landed on the car? It's not shown at all. Are we to assume the Joker just said good night and hopped back in the elevator? He didn't turn the place upside down looking for Harvey Dent? Bruce abandoned his own party to the joker.

That's the whole point of the scene where the party guests are having sex in Wayne's bedroom. He goes into a "panic room" b/c Bruce Wayne is scared and he leaves the rest of the guests out there b/c he only wants to save his own butt. That couple vouches for this b/c they saw him hide out in what they thought was the panic room.

 

[ross2287]

I suspect he took a few more shrimp, maybe unloaded his shotgun into the air, waved and left.

And maybe drank some more empty glasses of champagne.

 

[Doc Samson]

This is one of the big points I give to this movie, because I dont think he did know, and for once, the hero didn't give his identity up for everyone. I dont even know how Spiderman functions with every movie showing him revealing himself to somebody new. I almost expected Bruce to reveal himself to Harvey to get him to calm down, I'm glad he didn't. I do think that guy who was going to tell on tv knew about him, especially after Bruce saves him, he gives him a kind of look, and it was a very subtle, powerful message that conveyed the fact that he knows, but he realizes Bruce needs to operate hidden....

 

[TNC9852002]

I didn't even think Joker switched their addresses, but rather Batman decided to go save Dent to shock the audience and because for the sake of Gotham Dent's life was too important.

No, he definitely switched them. The address Joker gave Batman for Dent's whereabouts was the address Gordon was shouting to his men. They were going to get Dent because Batman told him he was getting Rachel.

Not only that, but if you remember Batman's reaction when he walked in and saw Dent in there, it was more obvious that he had been fooled.

-TNC

 

[Uroboros]

No, he definitely switched them. The address Joker gave Batman for Dent's whereabouts was the address Gordon was shouting to his men. They were going to get Dent because Batman told him he was getting Rachel.

Not only that, but if you remember Batman's reaction when he walked in and saw Dent in there, it was more obvious that he had been fooled.

-

TNC​

Agreed. Gordon went to the address Batman wasn't going to. Dent's location! For Gordon to find Rachel at that address can only mean one of two things. Joker switched addresses, or somewhere along the way Gordon and Batman decided to switch where they were going.

Only the former makes any sense.

 

[The_Raganork]

Agreed. Gordon went to the address Batman wasn't going to. Dent's location! For Gordon to find Rachel at that address can only mean one of two things. Joker switched addresses, or somewhere along the way Gordon and Batman decided to switch where they were going.

Only the former makes any sense.

totally right; however I don't know if the film made that too clear.

did Joker know Bruce was Batman...no

Up until he sees Harvey and Batman in the same place he believed that Harvey was Batman ("I really thought you were Dent I mean the way you threw yourself at her") I don't think that he really had a clue; but, I think as the story went on he started not to care about it more and more. I think the chase was his Joy.

 

[Uroboros]

He doesn't have to know that Bruce is Batman or that Bruce has the hots for Rachel. It doesn't matter to the Joker who Batman chooses to save. His switching addresses means that the person who Batman chooses to save (regardless of who it is) will not be there when Batman arrives. And that I think was point.

 

[The Apocalypse]

I just want to know where's the "tell" that tells us Joker switched the addresses?

After all he's done (the Joker) you really can't see him lying about the address?

 

[Golgo-13]

I agree with the original posters comments that the Joker did know, or suspect that Bruce was Batman by the dialogue in the interrogation room...

To add to that theory, the Joker knew, as the public knew, that Reese knew who Batman was, but the Joker didn't want anyone else knowing cause it would have spoiled his plan. I believe that the Joker does know who Batman is, or he wouldn't have coerced citizens of the public into killing Reese, with Reese knowing such valuable info, he would have kidnapped Reese and got the info from him for himself. Joker didn't do this, cause he already figured out who Batman was himself.....

 

[The_Raganork]

I agree with the original posters comments that the Joker did know, or suspect that Bruce was Batman by the dialogue in the interrogation room...

To add to that theory, the Joker knew, as the public knew, that Reese knew who Batman was, but the Joker didn't want anyone else knowing cause it would have spoiled his plan. I believe that the Joker does know who Batman is, or he wouldn't have coerced citizens of the public into killing Reese, with Reese knowing such valuable info, he would have kidnapped Reese and got the info from him for himself. Joker didn't do this, cause he already figured out who Batman was himself.....

I got a totally different impression. i got that if Resse told then he would no longer have anyone to play with. When he suggest that Batman take off his mask; I don't think he really wants him to do it; he just wants to blame killing people on the fact that Batman won't comply; thusly, shifting the blame and causing torment on Batman. He wants Resse dead because #1 it'll cause chaos; all the citizens trying to kill one man turning on each other; huge, victory in the battle for Gotham's Soul and #2 if they know who Batman is they'll arrest Bruce and then who will Joker have to torment? sure he could Kill; but, like he said, " I don't want to kill you cause you're just too much fun", I don't think he knew who Batman was; I don't think it mattered; just as long as he could hurt him.

 

[Baltezaar]

I'll forward another idea: the Joker didn't know that Wayne/Batman are the same. He originally wanted to know as a way of taking away Batman's power over the criminal element; after a certain point, I think the Joker realized to some degree Batman's actual identity didn't matter to his (the Joker's) plans, and he stopped caring.

The Joker's speech at the end, when he was twirling from the grappling gun's line, said it all. He knew that Batman and he would be doing this dance for the rest of their lives, that their personal philosophies demanded it and attracted each other. Batman's alter ego stopped mattering to the Joker, because it wasn't the most important thing about him to the Joker.

 

[bosef982]

Jesus people, the thread asked a simple question that I was hoping to discuss.

Instead, you get a bunch of overreacting newbies. Christ...

Thank you to those who have discussed that and not delved down into idiocy.

I also find it interesting that so many people have differing takes on the switched addresses.

 

[StrainedEyes]

Jesus people, the thread asked a simple question that I was hoping to discuss.

Instead, you get a bunch of overreacting newbies. Christ...

There was nothing to discuss.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Jesus people, the thread asked a simple question that I was hoping to discuss.

Instead, you get a bunch of overreacting newbies. Christ...

There's no real basis to this argument that I can see. There's actually a thread for these kind of questions.

 

[samsnee]

I just want to know where's the "tell" that tells us Joker switched the addresses?

When Batman comes out of the interrogation room, Gordon says "Which one are you going after?" and Batman says "Rachel"

 

[bonesawmcgraw]

Joker didn't know who Bats would go after, the point was just that whoever he intended to go save, he didn't. Whether he went after Harvey or Rachel.

Exactly, it was never Joker's original "plan" to corrupt Harvey Dent. He wanted to corrupt Batman, Dent was just his fallback.

 

[Heretic]

Joker did not know that Bruce was Batman. Of course, Dent disappeared right before batman showed up, so theres reason to think that Dent is batman...

Also, regarding Jokers opinion on Reese...I believe that Reese went to Joker with the info. Engel asks Reese whos funding him, and then Joker called in and said that he changed his mind about Reese telling everyone. That implies that for a brief period, Reese and Joker were in cahoots...so techincally Joker could know...but I just dont think hed care either way.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Joker did not know that Bruce was Batman. Of course, Dent disappeared right before batman showed up, so theres reason to think that Dent is batman...

Also, regarding Jokers opinion on Reese...I believe that Reese went to Joker with the info. Engel asks Reese whos funding him, and then Joker called in and said that he changed his mind about Reese telling everyone. That implies that for a brief period, Reese and Joker were in cahoots...so techincally Joker could know...but I just dont think hed care either way.

That seems like a stretch to me. Reese is easy to intimidate, hell, Fox intimidates him quite easily. Do you really think this insecure coward would go looking for a psycho killer that's terrorizing the entire city?

 

[storyteller]

1) Joker Switched the locations. He knew Batman would save one of the people. He figured that the dive for Rachel ment something. Maybe its even a greater Joke on the hero that they didnt get who they intended to save. For whatever reasons, joker lied.

2) Engel was trying to tear apart Reese credibility.

3) Joker probably didnt know Reese actually knew who Batman wasnt going to take a chance that Reese was right. There would be no more Batman.

4) Really could the Joker put two and two together? Bruce has an alibi and the Joker probably fooled. Without knowing where the tech came from, cant tie it to Bruce.

 

[BruceWayne]

I don't get how there can be speculation on this still. Joker didn't know...period. He switched the addresses on purpose because he knew Batman had a thing for Rachel after he witnesses the rescue of her. He knew Batman would go after Rachel...that was the point of kidnapping her. That and he knew that there was no time to get her because if the police were going to go after Dent in cars there was no time for them to get there with traffic patterns at that time of night. It was Joker's fall back plan to kill Rachel because he knew it would be the driving force to push Harvey over the edge if it wasn't Batman.

There is no evidence to support that Joker knew Batman was Bruce. Hell, Joker never even met Bruce through the entire movie! How would he know?? Like I said before, the general public doesn't know that there is anything between Rachel and Bruce...at the most they think they are just friends. How would Joker know without seeing the two of them together?? The only people that knew Bruce was longing after Rachel was Alfred and to an extent Dent. If at one point in the film Joker had met Bruce or has seen Bruce and Rachel together, then maybe it would open up the possibility. But there's no way.

As for Reese, he didnt' get a chance to tell anyone. He was doing it for two reasons: 1) his own personal gain, and 2) he thought he would be helping Gotham. Joker wanted him dead because he no longer wanted to know who Batman was. If it came out that Bruce was Batman to the general public, Bruce would have been arrested and Joker wouldn't have anyone to play with anymore. He wanted to see what Gotham would do about his threat about blowing up the hospital. Even if someone did kill Reese, Joker would have blown up the hospital anyway. I believe all of his threats were going to be pulled through anyway because that was his joke in the end. Joker doesn't care by the end of this movie.

So to wrap up this rant, NO, Joker does NOT know Batman is Bruce Wayne.

 

[wootbaby]

No he doesn't know. As the movie goes on he doesn't care.

You have to understand that at the beginning of the movie Joker doesn't know any more about Batman than anyone else. In other words he knows jack (NO PUN) about the Batman. Who is he? What are his motives? What are his limits?

He originally wants to know who the Batman is because he wants to know how to deal with him. Can he be corrupted? Can he be made an example of in front of the entire city. He needs to know who Batman is in order to deal with him.

Same thing when he throws Rachel out the building. Knowing what WE know after 70 years of Batman comics, Batman WILL throw himself out the window to save Rachel but all the Joker knows about the Batman is that he's a vigilante who beats up people. Did he expect Rachel to die? Probably not... the Batman would probably save her but how would he react? Would he hesitate? Would he even let her die in order to arrest the Joker. Would he throw the Joker out WITH her? It's all a test, his main objective wasn't to kill Rachel (although that would be amusing) it was to see the Batman in action presented with an interesting choice.

As the movie progresses as the Joker sees more and more of the Batman in action he starts to understand him more. He's a truly dark individual. He's not playing vigilante for the glory or for some benefit... there's some deep, something scarred inside him driving him. By the time Joker is taken into custody he thinks he knows the Batman. And at that point he doesn't really care who the Batman is... IMO to the Joker it's irrelevant who society thinks he is... as far the Joker is concerned the Batman is the true guy and whoever he "pretends" to be in the daytime is a sick (and inevitably less interesting) mask.

Why does he change the addresses? First he WANTS Harvey to survive so he can be twisted. Being a master manipulator he guesses that Batman himself will go after the damsel in distress... why? Because that's what heroes do... that's what Dent HIMSELF wanted Batman to do.

It is clear from the interrogation scene however that he knows there's a connection between Rachel and Batman... but Rachel is assistant DA... she must interact with hundreds of powerful, smart, driven men... even in his twisted mind there's no way he thinks the male Paris Hilton aka Bruce Wayne is Batman... anymore than we'd think Paris is secretly working on cold fusion in her basement. However the Joker probably got a lot of clues he needed at Dent's fundraiser. It's my guess that he saw something off in how Rachel acted... like she knew Batman would be along presently and therefore made the connection

 

[Heretic]

I'm not saying that Im POSITIVE that Reese and The Joker were in cahoots...but why did Joker call in and say "Ive changed my mind"???