The Dark Knight Did Joker know Bruce Wayne was Batman?

[wootbaby]

joker never wanted to know who batman is. He tells him near the beginning of the scene "I was testing you, and you didn't disappoint."

Joker does but not in the way, say the Riddler does-- to feel smart or feel like he figured it out. Or how someone like the mob or Black Mask would-- to get leverage over him to bargain/threaten him or to defeat him

Joker at the beginning of the movie wants to know who Batman is in order to understand him. And in understanding him to know how to best manipulate, hurt and make him "fall.'

Later in the movie when he is no longer interested in who Batman is it is because of Joker's own mistaken belief that he does "understand" Batman, thus who he is without the mask becomes unimportant and boring (whoever he is, he couldn't possibly be as interesting as who he really is... ie the Batman). If Joker did know Batman was Bruce Wayne it would BLOW HIS MIND because a man like that who is truly altruistic cannot exist in Joker's world. It would drive him even more insane than he already is.

Batman to the Joker is a man who deals with his pain through violence and by inflicting pain in others, as the Joker does. He may pretend he does it for "the common good" but in reality he's only does because he is someone who NEEDS the public's sanction and acceptance. Basically to Joker there's 2 parts of the Batman... 1)someone who likes to cause pain 2(someone who cant accept that he is someone who likes to cause pain and therefore has to give himself the illusion that it's "in the public's interest" and therefore justified

What the Joker says to the Batman is to try to get him to break down that 2nd mental block in his head (which Joker believes is artificial). He thinks that IF the city WILL turn on him, that will strip Batman of his self-illusion of doing it for a good purpose and will allow him to fully embrace chaos like the Joker has. That's why he's telling the Batman the people of the city will turn on him when push comes to shove

This is ALSO why Joker cannot anticipate Batman taking the fall for Harvey. In the Joker's mind, Batman NEEDS the illusion of public acceptance and cant afford to give that up psychologically. Batman is this sick psycho who needs to inflict pain but cant bear that truth so he needs the city to look up to him as a hero. (which in a way is genius on the part of the Joker, he has the insight to understand that Batman's goal is to be a SYMBOL... although he simply dismisses that again as an example of hypocrisy)

What Joker doesn't know and can never know is that Batman comes from an entirely different place and to him it really doesn't matter if the people think he's evil as long as there's someone even GOODeRRRR than him in the publics conscience eg I believe in Harvey Dent

 

[Anita18]

Joker doesn't know. Just because WE the audience know Bruce Wayne has a thing for Rachel (Let alone Batman!), there's a good chance 99.99% of Gotham City doesn't even know she's even dating Harvey.

It's common knowledge. The virals make that clear. How else would Joker immediately know that Rachel was "Harvey's squeeze" just by looking at her?

Later in the movie when he is no longer interested in who Batman is it is because of Joker's own mistaken belief that he does "understand" Batman, thus who he is without the mask becomes unimportant and boring (whoever he is, he couldn't possibly be as interesting as who he really is... ie the Batman). If Joker did know Batman was Bruce Wayne it would BLOW HIS MIND because a man like that who is truly altruistic cannot exist in Joker's world. It would drive him even more insane than he already is.

Batman to the Joker is a man who deals with his pain through violence and by inflicting pain in others, as the Joker does. He may pretend he does it for "the common good" but in reality he's only does because he is someone who NEEDS the public's sanction and acceptance. Basically to Joker there's 2 parts of the Batman... 1)someone who likes to cause pain 2(someone who cant accept that he is someone who likes to cause pain and therefore has to give himself the illusion that it's "in the public's interest" and therefore justified

What the Joker says to the Batman is to try to get him to break down that 2nd mental block in his head (which Joker believes is artificial). He thinks that IF the city WILL turn on him, that will strip Batman of his self-illusion of doing it for a good purpose and will allow him to fully embrace chaos like the Joker has. That's why he's telling the Batman the people of the city will turn on him when push comes to shove

This is ALSO why Joker cannot anticipate Batman taking the fall for Harvey. In the Joker's mind, Batman NEEDS the illusion of public acceptance and cant afford to give that up psychologically. Batman is this sick psycho who needs to inflict pain but cant bear that truth so he needs the city to look up to him as a hero. (which in a way is genius on the part of the Joker, he has the insight to understand that Batman's goal is to be a SYMBOL... although he simply dismisses that again as an example of hypocrisy)

What Joker doesn't know and can never know is that Batman comes from an entirely different place and to him it really doesn't matter if the people think he's evil as long as there's someone even GOODeRRRR than him in the publics conscience eg I believe in Harvey Dent

Anyone who took that scene at face value didn't understand the Joker at all in this movie. JOKER LIES. When Joker says that crap he's not talking about himself at all he's telling HARVEY what HE needs to hear in order to turn him. All that stuff about having no plan and fate being the only fair thing and forsaking your own schemes and plans is a straw man, so Harvey will embrace his duality fixation and go nut fuks. The last thing Joker wants is Harvey to stop and think who planned everything that just happened to him, so he gives Harvey a shove in the opposite direction (where Joker knew he was already leaning). ALL Joker ever does the entire movie is scheme and plan. A viewer can be excused for confusing it in the moment, just like when he tells Gambol about his father you think for a moment he's telling the truth. but as the movie goes on you realize he was probably talking about GAMBOL's father just like he was talking about RACHEL herself when he told the story about the faithless woman. he just says the most mocking, hurtful or emotionally crippling thing he can think of at the moment. viewing the rest of the movie unfold, it's clear how what Joker says to Harvey about not having a plan is just part of the plan

As for does Joker know Batman is Bruce Wayne. LMFAOOTFRALMAO. Joker will never know that for the same reason he could never have predicted how Batman would DESTROY Joker's plan by being altruistic and taking the fall for Dent. Joker thinks he knows Batman and that they're kindred spirits but he doesn't actually know the most important thing about Batman. Batman isn't about darkness... the vigilantism, his parents' murder, the anger, the vengeance. He's about a way through that darkness, fighting through it to the light at the end of the tunnel. Joker's world view does not allow for a truly selfless being... those who are noble are simply frauds or lucky... when push comes to shove they will fall like the rest of us.

Actually to him, Bruce Wayne would make sense. In a way he's a man who's embraced total nothingness like Joker. He's a man who has the wealth and the means to do anything yet does nothing. That's the type of lost, desperate, man whom Joker would consider actually correctly enlightened. Also Joker would appreciate the fact that Bruce is totally open and honest (esp to himself) about his misanthropy.

Batman... would not make sense to Joker. It would ROCK HIS WORLD. The idea of a man who starts with everything and gives up EVERYTHING for others, and to not "want" anything from that... to the Joker a man like that doesn't exist. Because goodness does not exist.

Now if Joker was somehow more like the Riddler, and could actually take an objective look at Batman as opposed to an insane obsessed one then yeah he would have a chance to figure it out... he's THAT smart. And thus he could probably "defeat" Batman as far as Batman's ultimate goal. But he cant, he doesn't and he wont. The End.

Great observations, wootbaby. I love reading your posts.

Joker's refusal to see good also explains why he didn't understand why the people on the ferries didn't blow each other up. In real life, that actually may or may not happen, but it depends on your own outlook of humanity.

3. Clearly he switched the addresses. When Gordon asks Batman who he's going to save, he clearly says "RACHEL!" -- so he went to the address the Joker claimed was Rachel's. Instead, we find Dent. Even Rachel and Dent know they're intending to save Rachel.

4. Therefore, the Joker knew Batman would choose Rachel, and so he planned to have Rachel die in order to piss the hell out of Dent and "bring him down to our level."

For someone who claims to never scheme, Joker's one hell of a planner.

It's a question of semantics. Joker's ultimate plan is to ruin other people's plans. Which is still a plan (even a goal), but it has no real self-interest in mind. He isn't out to give himself power or anything.

As wootbaby also posted, he also does lie throughout the movie, but you could interpret whatever he said to Harvey as partly true as well. At least I did, and I found it fascinating.

The fact that Joker switched the addresses is made clear when Batman breaks open the door, when the room is revealed, Joker's electronic buzzing note "theme" can be heard in the background. (It appears every time Joker is involved.) Batman even pauses, like he's thinking, "Oh s***!"

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't think the Joker knew he was Wayne.

He DID know that Batman had once had a relationship with Rachel...but that could make Batman more than a number of guys, not just Bruce. Bruce would still be the least likely suspect, because they're relationship was atleast a decade ago before Bruce even vanished.

And Joker's speech to Dent was sorta b.s., in the sense that the Joker doesn't simply "do". Yeah, he's insane...but he is smart too, and in his speech to Dent...he seemed to paint himself as someone who plans nothing...which is b.s.

 

[Quinzel]

I didn't even think Joker switched their addresses, but rather Batman decided to go save Dent to shock the audience and because for the sake of Gotham Dent's life was too important.

He did switch them
Because batman told gordan he was going after rachel, and gordon said he'd take dent.

Then gordon showed up at rachels place.

If the B-man decided to save dent, Both would have showed up at dents place.

 

[xisaacx]

the joker never had any actual encounters with bruce wayne, so he wouldnt know of any connection.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I didn't even think Joker switched their addresses, but rather Batman decided to go save Dent to shock the audience and because for the sake of Gotham Dent's life was too important.

That would make no sense, or else Gordon would have been at the same place as Batman, because Batman never told Gordon he was switched addresses. Gordon would have seen Batman coming out of the building with Dent struggling against him, but it was clearly shown that Gordon was at the other building.

 

[Buttman]

Bruce would still be the least likely suspect, because they're relationship was atleast a decade ago before Bruce even vanished.

As mentioned above, I don't think Joker cares enough to go researching past boyfriends of Rachel to try and work out who Batman is. Alls he knows/cares about is that for some reason Batman likes Rachel, and he can use that to break him.

 

[deathfromabove]

I just want to know where's the "tell" that tells us Joker switched the addresses?

maybe the fact that he told batman the opposite addresses? he said dent was at 250 52nd street and rachel was avenue x at cicero. we know batman said he was going after rachel and gordon went after dent. well we know how that turned out.

later dent tells gordon his family is "where my family died." we hear ramirez send barbara gordon to 250 52nd street.

in addition there are lines in the novel and script that reveal explicitly that joker switched the addresses.

 

[Drz]

In the end, i don't think Joker would care if he found out who Batman was, he would only tell it to the public if he ended up killing him, but a life withouth Batman is just too boring for him. :P

 

[p4poetic]

I don't think he had a clue, and I don't think he would go make it his business to find out either; he wants the Batman to reveal himself, not him to do all the [detective] work.

I wonder what his reaction would be if he found out Bruce Wayne the billionaire orphaned (yada yada yada) was Batman? I mean, besides laughing.

 

[MrWayne]

Emphatically NO!
I cant believe so much discussion on this... i think this is anouther instance where the History of the comic is retained and reflected in the transition to film wherease Joker never knows or never new Batmans identity..
Burton kinda F'd up on that one...

 

[89Canes]

I believe a thorough reading of the script that was posted online reveals that Joker does indeed switch the addresses. It remarks to some extent that Bats grimaces when he arrives and sees that it's Harvey who is tied up in the chair, and not his beloved Rachel.

 

[MrWayne]

its obvious he switched them.. and it was almost expected that he would when he told him where to find Harvey & Rachel.. why would Joker ACTUALLY tell Bats where Rachel was??? Not very Joker like... He knew he had a thing for her for one.. two.. Joker even said that Batman had to break his one rule if he wanted to save ONE OF THEM he new Bats couldnt get to both in time and Bats would choose one and let the other die.. Hence.. "killing is making a choice".. the joke was on bats cuz no matter wat someone was gonna die no matter wat.. he knew Bats would go to Rachels adress and so he switched them... Now.. if Batman was as smart as we thought he was he woulda known not to trust that murdering phycotich son of a B**ch and go to Harveys adress.. ahhh he would lost either which way,,, wait... he did actually! lmao

 

[Fax]

In the movie didn't he say he had a change of heart and didn't want to know who Batman was?

 

[MrWayne]

yup.. because at that point Batman to him was just too much fun to let go of..

 

[Doc Samson]

I actually don't even think he wanted to know who Batman was at all. I think he just wanted to make him the scapegoat, and in turn, make Batman corrupt, essentially destroying Gotham's symbol of good in both Batman & Harvey Dent. In the interrogation scene he says "I wanted to see what you would do, and you didn't disappoint..." I think he expected Batman to not turn himself in the whole time, so he was anticipating turning the city against him, to show him that in times of despair, the same people you protect will "cast you out....like a leper!" t: And it pretty much worked, just not in the way he had planned

 

[MrWayne]

I actually don't even think he wanted to know who Batman was at all. I think he just wanted to make him the scapegoat, and in turn, make Batman corrupt, essentially destroying Gotham's symbol of good in both Batman & Harvey Dent. In the interrogation scene he says "I wanted to see what you would do, and you didn't disappoint..." I think he expected Batman to not turn himself in the whole time, so he was anticipating turning the city against him, to show him that in times of despair, the same people you protect will "cast you out....like a leper!" t: And it pretty much worked, just not in the way he had planned

Yes.. i agree totally!

 

[Trooper]

Joker doesnt want to know who batman is.

He only says he wishes for batman to take off his mask in front of gotham to warp the citizens of gotham into pressuring batman. But the funny thing is when Reese decides to go live with the info, the Joker actually protects Batmans identity by threating to blow up the hospital. Because 'a world without batman is so boring'.

But regarding the topic at hand, he doesnt know Bruce is batman, he thought Harvey WAS until he saw Batman driving in his batmobile while trying to kill Harvey in the chase.

 

[Mr. Earle]

In the movie, the joker doesnt know who batman is. He just saw batman caring for Rachel when he threw her off the penthouse.

In the comics though (at least in the Morrison run) he does, but he just doesnt care. There have been many clues about it, but in the last issue, batman (he is kinda crazy right now) unmasked himself in front of him and the joker didnt even fling. To him, Bruce Wayne is the mask and he just doesnt care for it. Attacking BW, Alfred, showing up at the batcave with a bazooka, etc would probably mean breaking the rules of their game. Besides, he loooooves batman.

I am not so sure though that i like him actually knowing.

 

[Saint]

Never understood why people thought Joker meant for Rachel to be killed. He switched the addresses so that whoever Batman chose to live would, in fact, die. That simple.

 

[Two-Face]

In the comics though (at least in the Morrison run) he does, but he just doesnt care. There have been many clues about it, but in the last issue, batman (he is kinda crazy right now) unmasked himself in front of him and the joker didnt even fling. To him, Bruce Wayne is the mask and he just doesnt care for it. Attacking BW, Alfred, showing up at the batcave with a bazooka, etc would probably mean breaking the rules of their game. Besides, he loooooves batman.

I am not so sure though that i like him actually knowing.

That sucks, why the hell would Batman do this? That spoils the fun between them.

 

[[A]]

Never understood why people thought Joker meant for Rachel to be killed. He switched the addresses so that whoever Batman chose to live would, in fact, die. That simple.

But if Dent dies, what you do in the 2nd half of the movie..?

Spoiler

 

[Mr. Earle]

Never understood why people thought Joker meant for Rachel to be killed. He switched the addresses so that whoever Batman chose to live would, in fact, die. That simple.

Well how did he know that the police would never get there in time? Thats pretty far fetched you know!

That sucks, why the hell would Batman do this? That spoils the fun between them.

Read "Batman: RIP". Its really entertaining. To give you an answer, batman is being played by a very rich organisation who is bent on destroying him. Using psychology they tampered with his mind trying to erase Batman. But Batsy has preptime and he (somehow, i dont know how) changed that into erasing Bruce Wayne. He is now Batman. Just batman. He made a suit out of clothes he found on the street and armed himself with can tops (which he throws as batarangs) and a baseball bat. During the last issue the Black Glove (the aforementioned organisation) sets a trap for him in Arkham and the joker shows up unexpectedly. They face each other and in the end something (wont spoil it for you) makes him snap even more. He removes his mask because for him, its not Bruce Wayne underneath, he is just batman. Batman of Zurr En Arrh.

Just read it! It sounds ******ed now but it will all make sense.

 

[Saint]

Well how did he know that the police would never get there in time? Thats pretty far fetched you know!

Simple enough: the Joker knows that Batman is going to get where he's going faster, by virtue of having a batpod that can slip through traffic and alleyways, unlike a cop car, which--even with the siren on--has to deal with traffic and has to stay on conventional roads.

 

[Paradyme]

I thought Joker knew at first as well but it's obvious he doesn't and doesn't care to because he wouldn't have told people to kill Reese otherwise. The fun would be ruined if Reese spoiled everything.