The Dark Knight Did the Joker break Batman's spirit?

[Gotham Knight]

Let me start off by saying, I don't believe that the title of this topic is the case. I just wanted to get some interpretations because I thought that it was sort of interesting.

One thing I've noticed during the Joker's final speech in this movie, is that when Batman/Bruce says "This city just showed you, that it's full of people, ready to believe in good." The Joker then laughs and says "Until their spirit breaks completely." Now I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

In fact, only after watching that scene for probably the 100th time did I notice something that I'm probably reading into too much. But I noticed that when the Joker makes the above statement, Batman bends over in pain(from the dogs and Joker attacking him I believe). But I don't think that the pain is the ONLY reason why he bends over.

He's out of breath and just looks tired/defeated. It seems like he's almost been pushed to his limit by the Joker. Almost to the point where he's had his spirit broken. Now if that were the case, then I think Batman would have just given up completely. But he sacrifices himself in the end, so that's not the case. At least I don't think it is. I think he's close to being broken, but not there.

Now when Harvey is on the ground he says to Gordon "The Joker cannot win." Almost as if he's saying "I can't just give up as much as I want too and let the Joker break my spirit, I'll do whatever I have to in order to ensure that the City is safe." Then he decides to sacrifice himself. I know people have a lot of interpretations concerning this movie, so I'd like to here some about this theory.

I'm not sure I even believe it. But when the camera turns from the Joker to him and he bends over from exhaust, it seems like they're trying to tell something more then just showing what Batman's doing during his speech. Especially since he doesn't say a word. Which means that they're trying to give a message by showing his actions.

Anyway, any opinions?

 

[serendipity]

I tend to look at the ending of TDK from a Christological point-of-view, with Batman essentially being "crucified" for Harvey's sins. I think you could also point to the Joker's Satanic traits and say that he tempted and tormented Batman throughout the film, as the Devil had done to Christ. But I'm really not sure if he succeeded in breaking Bats' spirit.

 

[El Payaso]

No, he didn't. But he left it broken and bleeding, as he proved his point with Harvey.

 

[El Payaso]

^^^ Batman doesn't need that!!!

 

[Carnotaur3]

^^^ Batman doesn't need that!!!

Doesn't need what?

 

[El Payaso]

Doesn't need what?

Haha. There was a spambot post about viagra that's now deleted. t:

 

[page]

No, I think what would have broken Batmans spirit was if Alfred would have given him the letter then instead got burned, THAT would have broken his spirit if he had read it.

 

[Nemi]

Let me start off by saying, I don't believe that the title of this topic is the case. I just wanted to get some interpretations because I thought that it was sort of interesting.

One thing I've noticed during the Joker's final speech in this movie, is that when Batman/Bruce says "This city just showed you, that it's full of people, ready to believe in good." The Joker then laughs and says "Until their spirit breaks completely." Now I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

In fact, only after watching that scene for probably the 100th time did I notice something that I'm probably reading into too much. But I noticed that when the Joker makes the above statement, Batman bends over in pain(from the dogs and Joker attacking him I believe). But I don't think that the pain is the ONLY reason why he bends over.

He's out of breath and just looks tired/defeated. It seems like he's almost been pushed to his limit by the Joker. Almost to the point where he's had his spirit broken. Now if that were the case, then I think Batman would have just given up completely. But he sacrifices himself in the end, so that's not the case. At least I don't think it is. I think he's close to being broken, but not there.

Now when Harvey is on the ground he says to Gordon "The Joker cannot win." Almost as if he's saying "I can't just give up as much as I want too and let the Joker break my spirit, I'll do whatever I have to in order to ensure that the City is safe." Then he decides to sacrifice himself. I know people have a lot of interpretations concerning this movie, so I'd like to here some about this theory.

I'm not sure I even believe it. But when the camera turns from the Joker to him and he bends over from exhaust, it seems like they're trying to tell something more then just showing what Batman's doing during his speech. Especially since he doesn't say a word. Which means that they're trying to give a message by showing his actions.

Anyway, any opinions?

I'd say he came damn close. When Batman says his line he thinks he has won. Joker is hanging upside down and isn't going anywhere and neither ship has blown up. He thinks he has won and he says that line and without hesitation Joker laughs and replies. That's when he realizes it's not over yet. Once again he has the Joker right where he wants him with no escape (like he did in the interrogation room) and it's STILL not over. That's when he bends over in pain.

 

[ManWhoLaughed]

I don't believe Batman's spirit is broken, but it's almost damaged beyond repair. That's what I love about Batman. It seems like no matter how bad things get for him, he always has hope. Even if it's only in himself.

 

[The Joker]

If Joker had broken Batman's spirit, then he wouldn't have wanted to continue on fighting for the good of Gotham at the end. He would have just let everyone find out what Harvey did. He would have let Joker win.

But he didn't. Joker definitely pushed Batman to the edge, but he didn't break his spirit, or Gotham's. Just Harvey's.

 

[Grayson]

"The Joker cannot win."

Nope.

 

[El Payaso]

"The Joker cannot win."

Nope.

That sounded so weird. It was like "Joker cannot win. So even if he actually wins we're not giving him his medal."

 

[Ryan]

I don't the Joker broke Batman's spirit at all. The fact that he continues the fight I think proves that.

 

[The Batman]

I never agreed with the people who think joker won. Still dont. In fact, I feel that sentiment was born out of love for ledger's joker more than anything else.

 

[El Payaso]

I never agreed with the people who think joker won. Still dont. In fact, I feel that sentiment was born out of love for ledger's joker more than anything else.

Wtf.

No. That sentiment was born out of the fact that he corrupted one of the most incorruptible men in Gotham.

 

[The Joker]

He did win in that regard.

But he failed in having it steal Gotham's soul as he put it by having all of Gotham learn about what he did to Harvey.

 

[Doomed_hero]

He showed Batman that things arent as black and white as he thought, That people can fall. But he also showed Batman that for every bad chioce a person makes a person can make a good chioce as well. In a way Batman and Gotham broke jokers spirits by proving that people arent self centered and corrupt by nature.

 

[The Batman]

Wtf.

No. That sentiment was born out of the fact that he corrupted one of the most incorruptible men in Gotham.

not to argue semantics, but every version of harvey dent shows us that he is indeed corruptible, however good he may be at first. Harvey isnt like Batman, who has a purity about him despite his darkness. Most versions of the character shows us he has demons that explain how he could become two face, hence the scene where he interrogates a mentally fragile joker lackey.

Joker's goal was to ultimately break gotham, which is why he broke harvey in the first place. Harvey was the secret weapon just in case the ferries didnt blow each other up. He failed to blow up the ferries (or have them blow each other up), and Batman covered up dents downfall. Which Gotham wasnt broken. Which means Joker didnt win.

Now, people are free to debate this point. And I'm sure I'll disagree with whatever people come up with as I've seen this debate before, so I'll just preemptively agree to disagree.

 

[El Payaso]

not to argue semantics, but every version of harvey dent shows us that he is indeed corruptible, however good he may be at first. Harvey isnt like Batman, who has a purity about him despite his darkness. Most versions of the character shows us he has demons that explain how he could become two face, hence the scene where he interrogates a mentally fragile joker lackey.

Joker's goal was to ultimately break gotham, which is why he broke harvey in the first place. Harvey was the secret weapon just in case the ferries didnt blow each other up. He failed to blow up the ferries (or have them blow each other up), and Batman covered up dents downfall. Which Gotham wasnt broken. Which means Joker didnt win.

Now, people are free to debate this point. And I'm sure I'll disagree with whatever people come up with as I've seen this debate before, so I'll just preemptively agree to disagree.

This or that it wasn't by that "love for ledger's joker" you mentioned.

 

[El Payaso]

But yes, Joker didn't win, as Batman hid the fact that Joker did prove his point.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

No, he didn't. But he left it broken and bleeding, as he proved his point with Harvey.

His spirit didn't break but it's broken?

I think Batman's spirit is broken but not beyond repair.

 

[El Payaso]

His spirit didn't break but it's broken?

AND bleeding. Like in "I'm not broke. I'm broke AND ugly." See?

I think Batman's spirit is broken but not beyond repair.

That's what I meant.

 

[The Joker]

His spirit didn't break but it's broken?

I think Batman's spirit is broken but not beyond repair.

If his spirit was broken he would have given up altogether, IMO. He came close to it after Rachel's death but he kept on going anyway because he knew Gotham still needed him.

Same deal at the end.

 

[Tatsumarushinob]

Great stuff so far.

Where to start? I think the Joker didn't break Batman's spirit. You can never break Batman's spirit, that's why he's Batman. Dent was never the best of them, he crossed the line: he killed. Batman on the other hand never gave up, he had hope, he didn't cross the line and became the fallguy for Dent's crimes; the only way to preserve some hope, even if a little. And let's not forget about Gordon, he didn't cross the line either.Really when Gordon is talking in Dent's funeral, he is talking about Batman, not Dent. Batman is indeed the white knight, who uses a dark knight's armor, while Dent is really the darkest of them all, again he crossed the line. In the end Dent is no different than the Joker, he lived long enough to see himself become the villain. So Batman is both the hero Gotham deserves and the one it needs!

On a side note, I love the nice little tribute they made to Batman:Year One in that last scene, where Batman dives to save Gordon's kid even though Dent's coin came out on a favorable side. Remember Gordon was there when Bruce was just orphaned and comforted him. That's why Batman keeps saying: "You don't have to thank me"

 

[The Joker]

Great stuff so far.

Where to start? I think the Joker didn't break Batman's spirit. You can never break Batman's spirit, that's why he's Batman. Dent was never the best of them, he crossed the line: he killed. Batman on the other hand never gave up, he had hope, he didn't cross the line and became the fallguy for Dent's crimes; the only way to preserve some hope, even if a little. And let's not forget about Gordon, he didn't cross the line either.Really when Gordon is talking in Dent's funeral, he is talking about Batman, not Dent. Batman is indeed the white knight, who uses a dark knight's armor, while Dent is really the darkest of them all, again he crossed the line. In the end Dent is no different than the Joker, he lived long enough to see himself become the villain. So Batman is both the hero Gotham deserves and the one it needs!

On a side note, I love the nice little tribute they made to Batman:Year One in that last scene, where Batman dives to save Gordon's kid even though Dent's coin came out on a favorable side. Remember Gordon was there when Bruce was just orphaned and comforted him. That's why Batman keeps saying: "You don't have to thank me"

Excellent analysis. Especially the last line about the never having to thank him point. I forgot that was said between Batman and Gordon in both ending scenes.

Nice catch.