The Dark Knight The Dark Knight: A Twisted Killing Joke?

[Sonic1002]

That is exactly what i thought, especially at the end with the 'social experiment', where he's trying to prove that everyone is just like him.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I saw very little LONG HALLOWEEN and THE MAN WHO LAUGHS. There was a tiny bit of the themes of THE KILLING JOKE, but they were altered. And these are also the timeless Joker themes.

You didn't see any of THE MAN WHO LAUGHS in The Dark Knight? Uhhh ... you need to re-read THE MAN WHO LAUGHS then ...

Especially considering TMWL is just an updated version of Batman #1, which the character is heavily based off of in this film.

 

[ali.bryan]

I also read that heath didn't read too much of the graphic novels, he did this because he didn't want any of the other iterations of the joker to subconsiously affect his version of the joker.

 

[SuperDaniel]

What is funny that what i saw on screen was actually the most accurate portrayal of how I see the Joker in the comics and TAS. Except the perma white thing. But the gestures, motives, etc, It`s all there...

 

[The Guard]

You didn't see any of THE MAN WHO LAUGHS in The Dark Knight? Uhhh ... you need to re-read THE MAN WHO LAUGHS then ...

Especially considering TMWL is just an updated version of Batman #1, which the character is heavily based off of in this film.

No. Elaborate, please. The Joker saying he will do something and then doing it...and using his actions to bring out the worst in people/make people afraid, and test Batman's limits while admiring him from afar...that isn't unique to THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, or BATMAN #1...that's just The Joker's MO from the comics. He does that a lot.

 

[Boom]

A pal of mine pointed this out. Much of the movie is a really clever re-working of The Killing Joke, one in which The Joker wins.

The Joker doesn't win. His goal was to crush Gotham's spirit and corrupt its soul, with Harvey Dent as the ace in the hole. But look at what happened.

-Neither ferry blew the other one up, proving that The Joker was wrong about people.
-Batman took the fall for Harvey, so the public never knew about his fall.

 

[Hypestyle]

...they should have included the private joke at the end about the inmates trying to escape with a flashlight..

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

No. Elaborate, please.

Yes, these themes of the Joker are repeated in alot of his stories. But the look and feel to his character is a throwback to the more serious version of the character as seen in Batman #1 and the Batman #1 re-make The Man Who Laughs. The tone to which the way Joker acts in those stories is totally captured. In TMWL his 1st exposure to the people of Gotham on the tv is similar to the "terrorist video" seen on the news station in The Dark Knight. Joker's use of disguise, killing the commissioner / captain of the police, etc. Direct scenes aren't ripped from the comic per se, but there is definetely heavy inspiration. Batman # 1 / The Man Who Laughs had the strongest influence on the presentation of this character. It had elements of The Killing Joke, but he was much more Batman #1 / The Man Who Laughs.

 

[DACrowe]

His motives and reasonings were more related to The Killing Joke, though.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

His motives and reasonings were more related to The Killing Joke, though.

Yeah, in a way ... but on the surface of things, and the actual manner in which he acts is more Batman #1 / TMWL then the Killing Joke.

 

[Crook]

In terms of his behavior ala Batman #1, I didn't see too much influence there. The dark/scheming/gritty character moments were spread all throughout the film in small doses, but the insane cackling clown persona was in it a whole lot more.

Which surprised me since I was going into the film expecting very little of that humorous aspect. But I'm glad I was wrong.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No. Elaborate, please. The Joker saying he will do something and then doing it...and using his actions to bring out the worst in people/make people afraid, and test Batman's limits while admiring him from afar...that isn't unique to THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, or BATMAN #1...that's just The Joker's MO from the comics. He does that a lot.

Joker announcing he would kill people on television is straight out of TMWL. Of course, if this seems similar to Batman #1 you'd be right, because TMWL is basically just a reworking and updating of Batman #1. So if you see influences from Batman #1 in the movie, you're also seeing influences from TMWL in the movie, since they're both at the core the same story, one's just updated to fit today's world.

 

["V"]

There were most definitely elements from The Killing Joke within The Dark Knight. The interrogation room setting for a confrontation between Batman and Joker (okay, a fake Joker in TKJ); The multiple backstories; Joker trying to drive one of Batman's allies mad. But one point where it completely contrasts is over the futures of Batman and Joker. In The Dark Knight, Joker says he can see them doing this forever, where as in Killing Joke Batman sees them killing one or the other before the end.

There was a little bit of Long Halloween in Joker's interactions with the mob, but not really a great deal. But Dent's arc was very much taken from that novel, and the basic storyline of the trinity of Batman, Dent and Gordon vowing to take down the mob and losing Harvey at the end of it.

There were lots of elements from the very first Joker story, like announcing his victims and killing them from a distance (Loeb being poisoned) and also dressing up in disguises and actually fighting in hand-to-hand combat with Batman. He even dresses up as a cop in it!!! In the attempted assassination of the mayor did anybody else get the feeling of the film "Day of the Jackal"? I guess Nolan must be a fan. Excellent film.

Another possible source for the drunken father story could be Batman: The Animated Series. Joker talks about a drunken abusive father (among other stories...) and Jonah Nolan mentions B:TAS' take on "Big Bad Harv" so it's possible he took influence from there.

What I really love is that they took so many elements from Batman mythology but presented them in such a fresh way with a new interesting twist. The more I think of this film, the more I like it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The Joker doesn't win. His goal was to crush Gotham's spirit and corrupt its soul, with Harvey Dent as the ace in the hole. But look at what happened.

-Neither ferry blew the other one up, proving that The Joker was wrong about people.
-Batman took the fall for Harvey, so the public never knew about his fall.

Exactly. Hence why Batman says "The Joker cannot win" before he tells Gordon to blame it all on him. The Joker won the battle (Harvey becomes Two-Face), but lost the war (Dent died a hero to the people of Gotham).

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I viewed it as a tie, really. Batman doesn't let Joker's goal of making the city of Gotham lose all hope, and become the animals of society he thinks everyone has inside of them. But in a way Joker does win, because he wanted to make Harvey and Batman look bad in public perception by trying to make them break their ethical rules. By Batman taking on the wrap for Dent, he saves Dent's image, but for public perception destroys his own. Thus, The Dark Knight.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Joker's goal wasn't to make Batman look bad (he was doing a fine job of that before Dent died and he took the blame for his actions). It was to get Batman to become like the Joker, and he also failed at that. When he was saying Batman had to reveal himself and turn himself in, people hated him. He already looked bad to the public. Remember, the Joker says to Batman he really was incorruptable (which shows Joker's goal all along for Batman...corrupt him)

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

No, Joker's goal definetely was to bring Batman down to his level and for him to "break his one rule" ...

To corrupt him.

That's why he wants him to hit him with the bat-pod "Come on, I want you to do it." That's also why he wants him to kill him at the end. He's excited because he's destroying Batman's boundaries. Having Batman kill is Joker winning.

THE DARK KNIGHT was like the equivelent to the Vietnam War for the U.S.A.

There is no real winner. Batman saved Dent's perception, but at the same time is now viewed as a killer. So yeah, in a way Joker did win.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, Joker's goal definetely was to bring Batman down to his level and for him to "break his one rule" ...

To corrupt him.

That's why he wants him to hit him with the bat-pod "Come on, I want you to do it." That's also why he wants him to kill him at the end. He's excited because he's destroying Batman's boundaries. Having Batman kill is Joker winning.

THE DARK KNIGHT was like the equivelent to the Vietnam War for the U.S.A.

There is no real winner. Batman saved Dent's perception, but at the same time is now viewed as a killer. So yeah, in a way Joker did win.

Joker's goal wasn't about public perception. He wanted Batman to realize himself that he was as ugly deep down as the Joker. The Joker knows that Batman didn't kill any of the people Dent did, thus he never got Batman to break his one rule (unless you say he killed Dent, which I don't agree with...I call that an accident and not a murder on Bats part). Since he never got Batman to truly break his one rule, I can't call this a win for the Joker.

He got to Harvey, but failed to take away Gotham's hope and get Batman to break the rule. I have to call that a win for Bats, but a win with major consequences.

 

[GCityCoffee]

In terms of his behavior ala Batman #1, I didn't see too much influence there. The dark/scheming/gritty character moments were spread all throughout the film in small doses, but the insane cackling clown persona was in it a whole lot more.

Which surprised me since I was going into the film expecting very little of that humorous aspect. But I'm glad I was wrong.

Yeah, I agree, the Batman #1 influences were really only present with the death threats and the carrying out of the death threats (as well as bits like Joker dressed as a police officer).

 

[hame4479]

A pal of mine pointed this out. Much of the movie is a really clever re-working of The Killing Joke, one in which The Joker wins. I mean, think about it. Instead of Gordon as his target, Harvey is. The Joker goes to great lengths and great pains to destroy Harvey's life, all to prove that if you introduce enough chaos and tragedy into someone's life, they'll crack. Rachel is killed, he's set on fire, his plan to capture The Joker and exonerate Batman in the public's eyes backfires...he has that One Bad Day. And his response? He absolutely lost it.

There is alot of the Long Halloween going on in this film too.

 

[squeekness]

Of all the trades you guys keep mentioning, the only one I have not read is Man Who Laughs. Would you guys consider it a must have?

 

[Superhobo]

Of all the trades you guys keep mentioning, the only one I have not read is Man Who Laughs. Would you guys consider it a must have?

Oh, certainly. It's by Ed Brubaker, one of the best writers working in comics - aside from this, some of his other Batman work includes his seminal runs on "Catwoman" and "Gotham Central," where you can find "Soft Targets," which is probably the best arc of the series, and another Joker story. Really, Brubaker's probably got the best handle on the character that we've seen since Alan Moore.

 

[Hello Beautiful]

...they should have included the private joke at the end about the inmates trying to escape with a flashlight..

That's what I was longing for.

 

[baerrtt]

Has anyone ever read THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF THE JOKER anthology novel that came out in 1990? Because there's a story in there that hints (probably the first account I can recall) that his father was constantly drunk and therefore abusing him and his mother(actually hinted to be Leslie Thompkins).

 

[The Guard]

Joker announcing he would kill people on television is straight out of TMWL. Of course, if this seems similar to Batman #1 you'd be right, because TMWL is basically just a reworking and updating of Batman #1. So if you see influences from Batman #1 in the movie, you're also seeing influences from TMWL in the movie, since they're both at the core the same story, one's just updated to fit today's world.

Look...that is just not enough to say "There are elements of (insert storyline) to this movie". Do you have any idea how many Joker stories involve him telling Gotham he's going to kill someone via the television, radio, or other means? That's simply one of the Joker's methods of operation in the comics.

There were most definitely elements from The Killing Joke within The Dark Knight. The interrogation room setting for a confrontation between Batman and Joker (okay, a fake Joker in TKJ)

The fake Joker pretty much nullifies any similarity.

The multiple backstories

That I'll admit is an element of TKJ, although the nature of that has spread to the comics.

Joker trying to drive one of Batman's allies mad.

At what point does The Joker try to drive any of Batman's allies mad in THE DARK KNIGHT? What he does with Dent isn't really remotely related to anything found in THE KILLING JOKE other than the "one bad day" theme.

There was a little bit of Long Halloween in Joker's interactions with the mob, but not really a great deal.

There was very little, if any. The Joker was more of a loner in THE LONG HALLOWEEN, with his own agenda entirely.

But Dent's arc was very much taken from that novel, and the basic storyline of the trinity of Batman, Dent and Gordon vowing to take down the mob and losing Harvey at the end of it.

What happens between Dent and the mob doesn't begin to resemble his interactions with them in THE LONG HALLOWEEN. The fact that he's in court with a mobster, that's not really similar to TLH either. More than anything, Dent's arc is taken from the basics of his comic book mythology and altered a heck of a lot storywise. There's no Holiday or Dent vigilante before he becomes Two-Face in TDK. There's nothing about Maroni scarring Dent in THE DARK KNIGHT. There's no Rachel in THE LONG HALLOWEEN, and TLH featured someone named Gilda, who didn't die, causing Harvey to turn to crime. And so on and so forth. The only elements taken from TLH are the rooftop sequence with Gordon, Dent and Batman, and even that was heavily altered. Gone is it's significance to the mythos, now it's a plot point to explain why they need Lau.

There were lots of elements from the very first Joker story, like announcing his victims and killing them from a distance (Loeb being poisoned) and also dressing up in disguises and actually fighting in hand-to-hand combat with Batman. He even dresses up as a cop in it!!! In the attempted assassination of the mayor did anybody else get the feeling of the film "Day of the Jackal"? I guess Nolan must be a fan. Excellent film.

Similarities don't mean the elements are only pulled from those stories. The Joker has almost always killed people in a myriad of ways, and he has often worn disguises. The fact that he is disguised as a cop in TDK is a similarity to BATMAN #1 and THE LAUGHING FISH, I'll give you that, but the nature of it is almost completely different.

Has anyone ever read THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF THE JOKER anthology novel that came out in 1990? Because there's a story in there that hints (probably the first account I can recall) that his father was constantly drunk and therefore abusing him and his mother(actually hinted to be Leslie Thompkins).

I have that novel. It's not bad, really. A lot more interesting than many incarnations of The Joker have been. Some pretty twisted stories to be found in it.