Discuss: The Minute Men

[Malice]

I thought I would throw a political topic out not actually part of the election and candidates.

What do you think of the Minute Men?

 

[Malice]

What do you think of the Minute Men?

Personally, I think they are filling a gap the Government has failed to do.

From what I know of, not anyone can simply join, and them BAMN, they are out on the line. They actually have to undergo training in observation and avoidance of all contact.

They are simply there, reporting individuals that are crossing the border illegally.
if the Govt would have this covered, they would go home.

 

[The Senator]

The Minute Men, in my opinion, is a group of racist vigilantes who don't care one bit about the national security of our country. They're more concerned with the fact that Mexicans are coming over here illegally. If Canadians were illegally entering our country and taking our jobs, they certainly wouldn't go to the Canadian border and hunt them down.

This organization, and the entire debate over illegal immigration, is race motivated. The Minute Men has scapegoated an entire race of people, and I don't think they benefit the public good at all.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

The difference between Mexican and Canadian in this case is that Canadian culture isn't that far removed from American culture. Both countries mostly speak English as their predominant language. Mexico, on the other hand, is considered more foreign since the majority of the illegals are poor and more uneducated, and typically don't speak the language. They are much easier to label as "aliens."

I know race does play a part here, but I really think it's a class and language barrier issue. People feel like their standard and quality of life is at risk of being diminished.

 

[Denny67]

The Minute Men, in my opinion, is a group of racist vigilantes who don't care one bit about the national security of our country. They're more concerned with the fact that Mexicans are coming over here illegally. If Canadians were illegally entering our country and taking our jobs, they certainly wouldn't go to the Canadian border and hunt them down.

This organization, and the entire debate over illegal immigration, is race motivated. The Minute Men has scapegoated an entire race of people, and I don't think they benefit the public good at all.

Well, since Canadians are not flooding over the boarder taking American jobs (as you put it) there is no real way of proving that this is in any way "race motivated."

But hey it sounds really provocative.

 

[The Senator]

Well, since Canadians are not flooding over the boarder taking American jobs (as you put it) there is no real way of proving that this is in any way "race motivated."

But hey it sounds really provocative.

No. People have made this a white versus Hispanic issue. I have people who call into my office every day and say that they want to lob grenades at rafts coming from Cuba, or shoot every Mexican who crosses the border. I think that's completely ignorant. That ignorance has led the majority of anti-immigrant Americans to think that every Hispanic person they see on the street is an illegal alien. It has definitely contributed to anti-Hispanic sentiments in this country, and if you deny that, you're blind to the social problems plaguing American society today.

 

[Lobster Charlie]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?

 

[MaskedManJRK]

The difference between Mexican and Canadian in this case is that Canadian culture isn't that far removed from American culture. Both countries mostly speak English as their predominant language. Mexico, on the other hand, is considered more foreign since the majority of the illegals are poor and more uneducated, and typically don't speak the language. They are much easier to label as "aliens."

I know race does play a part here, but I really think it's a class and language barrier issue. People feel like their standard and quality of life is at risk of being diminished.

Plus I'm sure many of the Canadians think, "S**t, we got decriminalized weed and health insurance--they should be trying to cross our border!"

Seriously, I love how in the beginning (not sure if they do this more now) the Minute Men said they patrol the border for "terrorists" when the terrorists who came into the country do destroy the WTC crossed from Canada. Either they never actually read anything on 9/11, or they just want a good excuse to shoot at something and they thought people would except it.

 

[The Senator]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?

Why should someone be forced to give up their national pride? And on top of that, why shouldn't they wave the flag of their home country, considering they had become a national scapegoat overnight?

 

[SuBe]

I think it cuts both ways. During the protests in May of 2006, where loads of latinos decided not to work that day, they were in downtown Los Angeles waving Mexican flags. If someone wants to be a part of this country, why would they wave the flag of another nation?

This is a great point.


I personally believe that the Minute Men are there ONLY because our government and the Mexican Government has failed to do anything about the Illegal Criminals coming into this country. The MM do not engage the Illegals, only call Officials to come and deal with them. They are Patriots doing the job for all of America. They are doing a service.

The Problem with Illegals is not a race issue, it is both an Economic and Criminal Issue. We have a legal immigration process. They should respect that, and not bypass our customs and legalities. Economically they are a burden, both making money and sending it to their home countries: taking that money out of our economy, and Socially: like Medical and Educational Services, not also to count Prisons. They are a burden, costing us more and more every year, and not contributing to our society. Only to the betterment of their native countries.

To me, it doesn't matter if it is the Canadian or Mexican Boarder, these people do not belong here. If they wish to join, respect our laws and do it legally. And for your information: 80% of all Illegal Criminal Aliens in this country are Mexican, 20% are other.

 

[Figs]

Why should someone be forced to give up their national pride? And on top of that, why shouldn't they wave the flag of their home country, considering they had become a national scapegoat overnight?

Whatever. If you want to be a citizen of another country you need to adopt to their flag since your basically adopting to their laws and way of life.

It doesn't mean you can't have pride for being a Mexican and still have your Mexican flag. It's just those morons went about it the wrong way. It just got people pissed off and rightfully I might add.

It was shoving their countries flag in our face as if saying they only want to come over to exploit our country rather than embrace it for the freedoms they can have.

 

[Malice]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

 

[The Senator]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

Actually, it was high on the list of issues in 2005, when President Bush addressed the nation about the ongoing border crisis. Two days later, there was a Day Without Immigrants rally across America. Whatever happened in Houston was two years later.

 

[Malice]

I find the striking and picketting of a people that are not legally here to be frankly put, a joke.

I am a humane person, but I dont owe them everything.

I have actually (and my wife) dealt with a few illegals here in Houston and there is between at least the few I have talked to (assuming they spoke English) thought that I owed them something.

This is maddening. My wife had an illegal worker working for her at her apartment complex arguing with her. He was demanding that she owned him more money (when he was a crappy employee) and that my wife just owed her more. I couldnt understand the attitude. It really pissed me off.

If stuff like that keeps happening, I might get to the point of ship them all out and have them come back legally.

I hate to thing I might get there...

 

[Denny67]

No. People have made this a white versus Hispanic issue. I have people who call into my office every day and say that they want to lob grenades at rafts coming from Cuba, or shoot every Mexican who crosses the border. I think that's completely ignorant. That ignorance has led the majority of anti-immigrant Americans to think that every Hispanic person they see on the street is an illegal alien. It has definitely contributed to anti-Hispanic sentiments in this country, and if you deny that, you're blind to the social problems plaguing American society today.

If the people that are illegally coming to this country are primarily Hispanics how you address the issue without calling them Hispanics?
It is not a race issue it is people being descriptive of where the majority of the problem is originating. Just because you have had contact with a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in this country that wants to see our laws enforced by our government is a bigot.

That is like saying, because you have a few bad cops around the country that “all cops are bad.” I always find it amusing how people try to force their perspective to fit the national picture. As for you “anti Hispanic” claim. I have yet to see any news of hate crimes against Hispanics, any mistreatment of Hispanics come to light as of yet. So where you are getting all of the” social problems plaguing American society today where Hispanics are concerned is a real mystery.

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

 

[Mr Sparkle]

This is a great point.


I personally believe that the Minute Men are there ONLY because our government and the Mexican Government has failed to do anything about the Illegal Criminals coming into this country. The MM do not engage the Illegals, only call Officials to come and deal with them. They are Patriots doing the job for all of America. They are doing a service.

actually no.
the minutemen are misguided, often racially motivated individuals who have a little too much time on their hands and take out their frustration on illegal immigrants.
the "MM" have been charged many a time with "engaging" illegals, and in Arizona alone mysterious border deaths increased with Minutemen presence in the mid 2004 period.
some of their leaders, like the one in Texas, I can't remember his name, but he started "ranch rescue" have spewed racist propaganda, and in a couple of cases were arrested for carrying weapons.
why are you carrying weapons if you don't plan to engage the illegal immigrants.
also, I would love to hear how the Mexican government could stop illegal immigration.

The Problem with Illegals is not a race issue, it is both an Economic and Criminal Issue. We have a legal immigration process. They should respect that, and not bypass our customs and legalities. Economically they are a burden, both making money and sending it to their home countries: taking that money out of our economy, and Socially: like Medical and Educational Services, not also to count Prisons. They are a burden, costing us more and more every year, and not contributing to our society. Only to the betterment of their native countries.

well, economists would disagree with you.
there were studies made and the results showed that Illegal immigrants had a net positive effect of 1% on the economy.
negligible sure, but it's a positive effect and this flies in the face of the rationale that illegal immigrants hurt the economy.
simply put, this study was made by economists not the "center for immigration studies" ( hahaha homo-contraceptivus or whatever the founding nutjob calls us citizens) and the rest of your post is subjective uninformed pap.
how exactly is someone that lives and works in the US not contributing to the economy?
there are people that make tons of money and have houses abroad, they work here for six months and spent the rest on foreign countries, so?
are you telling me that paying rent and buying goods and services doesn't stimulate your economy?
please.
read up on Californian economy and it's sectors of dependence, read about the effect of increased border control for legal tourists after 9-11 and it's disastrous effects on border economies on the US side all the way up the golden state with consequences being felt all the way up in san francisco.
and as your largest economy goes...so goes the nation.
I keep hearing that "they are a burden" why the **** do they keep finding jobs then?
why exactly? if they are indeed such a burden why are so many jobs still available, and why are illegal immigrants employed at such high percentages comparatively speaking?
sorry bu it is very much a "race issue" and I have seen it unfold.

To me, it doesn't matter if it is the Canadian or Mexican Boarder, these people do not belong here. If they wish to join, respect our laws and do it legally. And for your information: 80% of all Illegal Criminal Aliens in this country are Mexican, 20% are other.

yeah, that's completely wrong.
65% to 70% of illegal immigrants are HISPANIC out of which 45% to 50% are Mexican.
so theres actually about 50% to 55% that "are the other", so again, it is very much a "race issue"

 

[Mr Sparkle]

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

wow sooooo patriotic.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I find it funny, that Immigration was actually not to high on the list of issues till in 2007 they here in Houston boycotted and striked, not going to work, and marched down the streets with Mexican flags saying "We Owe Them"

Then they just ended up pissing off those people that were quiet about it.
This little strike they had, just shot themselves in the foot.

if I remember correctly the march was for immigration reform, it had nothing to do with was or was not "owed" right?
also, It's hilarious that people assume that all the people in the protest were illegal immigrants, many were simply Hispanic.

 

[Denny67]

I doubt that's true.
mostly because the people that immigrate legally understand that the people illegally crossing the border do so out of desperation and need, not some criminal impulse to "cut in line".
so, yeah I seriously doubt that, because I have much more Hispanic friends than you ( I guarantee it) that happen to be US citizens and they are far from pissed off.

Do you.. really.... you guarantee it?

Translation = I don’t like what I am hearing so I am going to claim you are lying and apply my own theory without any facts to back any of it up. CLASSIC!

Tell you what… contact Lupe Moreno of the Santa Ana Minuteman Project or Anti-illegal-immigration activist Andy Ramirez or the 32% of Latinos in the Gallup poll in June, who believe immigration levels should be decreased, and three in 10 believe that the government should not make it easier for undocumented immigrants to become citizens. You go right ahead and claim that they are bigots that hates Hispanics.


All records are of public record.. look em up.

Nope… no Hispanics are pissed. LMAO

sorry still laughing.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Do you.. really.... you guarantee it?

Translation = I don’t like what I am hearing so I am going to claim you are lying and apply my own theory without any facts to back any of it up. CLASSIC!

nope.
just means I'm Mexican.see, that's a fact.
and I have more Hispanic Friends than you, simply by laws of average, also, I live in a border town, so most of them are US citizens.
so....uh....there you go.

Tell you what… contact Lupe Moreno of the Santa Ana Minuteman Project or Anti-illegal-immigration activist Andy Ramirez or the 32% of Latinos in the Gallup poll in June, who believe immigration levels should be decreased, and three in 10 believe that the government should not make it easier for undocumented immigrants to become citizens. You go right ahead and claim that they are bigots that hates Hispanics.

well actually you claimed

"I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “"

I claimed you were lying, and I still do. since even though the Gallup poll information is real and I already knew about it, this has nothing to do with the argument you presented, no matter how much you try to connect it.

All records are of public record.. look em up.

Nope… no Hispanics are pissed. LMAO

sorry still laughing.

I never said "no" Hispanics are pissed.
I said you lied when you said a significant number or Hispanics were pissed, let alone, you implied that these people were migrants, to an extent, Mexicans even.
I called bull**** on that. and again, still do.
because wanting to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal seems a far cry from "being pissed".
of course you enter the realm of the catch 22 since you deem 32% a significant number, then the remaining 48% of US citizens in the gallup poll you mention are also quite "significant".


oops.


but yeah, keep laughing.
seems like the kind of thing people like you do.
laugh after being proven wrong ( and liars to boot) kind of sand, but...whatever.

 

[The Senator]

If the people that are illegally coming to this country are primarily Hispanics how you address the issue without calling them Hispanics?
It is not a race issue it is people being descriptive of where the majority of the problem is originating. Just because you have had contact with a few bad apples does not mean that everyone in this country that wants to see our laws enforced by our government is a bigot.

That is like saying, because you have a few bad cops around the country that “all cops are bad.” I always find it amusing how people try to force their perspective to fit the national picture. As for you “anti Hispanic” claim. I have yet to see any news of hate crimes against Hispanics, any mistreatment of Hispanics come to light as of yet. So where you are getting all of the” social problems plaguing American society today where Hispanics are concerned is a real mystery.

BTW I live in Las Vegas where about 50% of the population is Hispanic and none of that is happening here. I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

I didn't say this was an issue of terminology pertaining to illegal aliens. I said this was an issue of race, and specifically when it comes to people who aren't here illegally. People are starting to attack Hispanics who aren't illegal aliens, who are here legally or on a student visa-- and it needs to stop. That's my problem with this whole thing. It's turned into a full-fledged assault against all Hispanics, not just illegal aliens.

 

[LuiECuomo]

I didn't say this was an issue of terminology pertaining to illegal aliens. I said this was an issue of race, and specifically when it comes to people who aren't here illegally. People are starting to attack Hispanics who aren't illegal aliens, who are here legally or on a student visa-- and it needs to stop. That's my problem with this whole thing. It's turned into a full-fledged assault against all Hispanics, not just illegal aliens.

I really don't think that's true at all.

 

[The Senator]

I really don't think that's true at all.

I do. Here at my campus, we have a Spanish-speaking cleaning crew who are legal residents of DC. One of the idiots on my floor who is staunchly against illegal immigration not only asked one of them to present a legal ID, but he called the University to complain that he felt we had hired illegals to clean the building. Yeah, the person he asked had been legally here since the late 1990s, and uses Spanish to communicate with her other Hispanic co-workers-- who are all here legally, because this university would lose its accreditation if they weren't.

 

[Denny67]

nope.
just means I'm Mexican.see, that's a fact.
and I have more Hispanic Friends than you, simply by laws of average, also, I live in a border town, so most of them are US citizens.
so....uh....there you go.
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well actually you claimed

[/size]"I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “"

I claimed you were lying, and I still do. since even though the Gallup poll information is real and I already knew about it, this has nothing to do with the argument you presented, no matter how much you try to connect it.






I never said "no" Hispanics are pissed.
I said you lied when you said a significant number or Hispanics were pissed, let alone, you implied that these people were migrants, to an extent, Mexicans even.
I called bull**** on that. and again, still do.
because wanting to reduce immigration, both legal and illegal seems a far cry from "being pissed".
of course you enter the realm of the catch 22 since you deem 32% a significant number, then the remaining 48% of US citizens in the gallup poll you mention are also quite "significant".


oops.


but yeah, keep laughing.
seems like the kind of thing people like you do.
laugh after being proven wrong ( and liars to boot) kind of sand, but...whatever.

Well what I said verbatim was “I have a significant number of Hispanic friends who came here legally who are just as pissed off as the “evil white man. “

Since you are obviously challenged with reading comprehension I will assist you. This means that out of the Hispanics I know (which is a fair amount) many of them are unhappy with legal immigrants. They feel that they did a lot to get here and are happy they did. They feel that it is unfair that they had to spend a significant amount of time and money to make the move here and gain citizenship and others who came here illegally may have to a chance to just get grandfathered in. The range in emotion ranged from “it is just not fair” to “I am pissed”

So now we go to the fact that you cannot prove I am lying. It is just the sole bullet in your gun to try and discredit someone who disagrees with you. I have given you number which can be looked up via public record and names of Hispanics in Minutemen organization you are free to contact. Yet you still say I am lying once again with no way to back it up.

In spite of this you claim victory in our little discussion… what does that say about your credibility?

A lot I am afraid. In particular it says you have no qualms whatsoever to speak out on something and about someone you know nothing about.

Then again I am not surprised in the least. Pretty typical these days. When in doubt make just make ***** up right?

I am also well aware of the math involved in that poll. The remainder can range from condoning illegal immigration, to completely apathetic towards it with another complex line of varying reasons. The one fact that is in there is there are many Hispanic unhappy with it. So it is not entirely a race issue as was suggested above, which in case you forgot was whole point.

So yeah... still laughing here.