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Discussion: All Things Union

I like this part:

I'm not talking about a highly formalized process that, unsurprisingly, is slow and tedious--it comes from the federal government, after all--although it lends even more evidence to the idea that government-run healthcare would be AWESOME! :awesome:

So really, your proof is criticism of a process in place at the federal government, not merit-based promotions themselves. The article goes to say exactly that:

Oh, and then we've got the all-too-common perception that if Johnny got promoted over me, it must be favoritism . . . it couldn't possibly be me, right? Together, those don't really refute anything about rewarding/retaining/promoting employees based on merit.

When I mean "merit," I mean bosses looking at employees and promoting them based on their abilities, work ethic, etc. No complex, mind-numbingly dull bureaucratic hoops to jump through. People always want to make it more complicated than it has to be.

And, interestingly enough, your link supports my original position. Consider this quote:

Exactly. :up:

First of all, it should be mentioned that the federal government has about 2 million employees. The only private company that I know of is that large is Wal-mart, and they stopped giving merit raises years ago.
 
The Ohio version of Wisconsin's 'union busting' bill advanced further today. The GOP-led House Commerce and Labor Committee voted to 'recommend' the bill.
 
The Ohio version of Wisconsin's 'union busting' bill advanced further today. The GOP-led House Commerce and Labor Committee voted to 'recommend' the bill.

Now if only California will wake up.

We are awake here in California, and we don't play that. In Ohio, they are planing to petition 231,147 signatures to get a measure on next elections ballot to repeal the union busting bill when it becomes law. You people don't realize what unions actually do for America. You should all read this article.
 
We are awake here in California, and we don't play that. In Ohio, they are planing to petition 231,147 signatures to get a measure on next elections ballot to repeal the union busting bill when it becomes law. You people don't realize what unions actually do for America. You should all read this article.
This deserves more than just a link...

COLUMN — American workers got what they deserved


Are you an American employee? If so, today’s column will likely offend you. If you’d rather not be offended, read no further. If you continue and then complain, I’m sorry, but that simply proves you’re, well, stupid. But then again, stupidity plays a large role in today’s topic.

Still reading? OK. You’ve had fair warning.

So you’re an American employee. Maybe you make car parts. Maybe you’re an engineer or designer. Maybe you’re an accountant, store clerk or tradesman. Whatever you do, you’re probably stupid or lazy. Yes, I wrote it, and I mean it. You are either stupid or lazy. Maybe both.

Now, I’m not referring to your work ethic or job performance. No, most of you are competent and devoted to your profession or vocation. I’m addressing the way you view economics and employment. I’m challenging your gumption to advocate for yourself and your fellow Americans. Here’s what I mean.

Remember the Reagan standard? Are you better off today than you were a decade ago? Two decades? Three? Unless you make more than $380,000 a year, the answer is no. In fact, your standard of living over the last quarter century has actually decreased while millionaires have added 30 percent to their net wealth. Why? Two reasons.

First, hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs went overseas while the politicians you elected did nothing to stop them. Yet you continue to elect leaders who offer nothing but tax cuts, as if that would stem the flow of disappearing jobs.

Did you demand your leaders address America’s trade imbalance or continuous outsourcing of jobs? Did you demand your leaders require foreign countries to buy a dollar’s worth of American goods for every dollar of goods they sell here?

No and no. You didn’t bother. You simply crossed your fingers and prayed, “I hope my job’s not next.” You made concessions to your employer and hoped that would stem the exodus of jobs, or at least yours. How’d that work for you?

Second, you bought into the myth that unions are the cause of America’s demise. You didn’t bother to learn America became a world power when union membership was at its peak. You didn’t bother to learn America became the envy of the world while 1 of every 3 Americans was a union member.

So, how are things going for you? How do your benefits compare to a quarter century ago? Are you paying a higher or lower percentage of your income for health insurance? Does your company offer a pension plan, or do you now fund your own 401(k)?

Maybe you’re thinking, “I’m not a union worker, so this doesn’t affect me.”

Stop being stupid. Union benefits provide a standard other companies have to match, or at least come close to. When those benefits are cut, yours are, too. Or do you think you operate in your own little employment vacuum?

To make matters worse, you’re again being played for a chump. The same puppets who did nothing while your standard of living decreased are now using the oldest gimmick in the book — jealousy — to continue their assault on American workers. Rather than protect Americans’ jobs, they deflect your attention through jealousy.

“Cut the pay of government workers,” they cry. “Increase their health premiums. Decrease their pensions. Break their unions. After all, you’ve suffered so they should suffer too.” And in your misery, you buy their argument while more jobs head oversees. Pretty stupid, eh?

If their antics weren’t so pathetic, if the consequences weren’t so dire, if they didn’t prey on your stupidity, and if you didn’t buy into their convoluted reasoning, this whole situation would be laughable. But of course it’s not.

I warned you I’d likely offend you, and I suspect I did. But once you overcome your anger, consider my analysis. Then, either wise up and do something about it, or resign yourself to a lower standard of living for the next decade.

:applaud
 
NormaRae.jpg



:cap: :cap: :cap:
 
We are awake here in California, and we don't play that. In Ohio, they are planing to petition 231,147 signatures to get a measure on next elections ballot to repeal the union busting bill when it becomes law. You people don't realize what unions actually do for America. You should all read this article.

Uh huh. California is so awake that they are driving businesses and residents out of their state while going bankrupt. What happened in Vallejo, CA? Oh that's right, they declared bankruptcy because they couldn't pay all the union deals. California is borrowing $40 million a day just to pay for unemployment. Why don't they just raise taxes on the rich? Oh wait:
http://drscoundrels.com/2011/03/04/top-10-states-with-highest-tax-rates-are-forced-union-states/

What!? The top 10 states with the highest tax rates are forced unions states? GADZOOKS! I wonder why New Jersey, NY, and California are having the worst financial woes...well at least now New Jersey has Christie.

What have public employee unions done for America in 30 years? I think I can ask that 100 times and you will still dodge it.

Good read:
http://city-journal.org/2010/20_2_california-unions.html#ad
 
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This deserves more than just a link...

COLUMN — American workers got what they deserved


Are you an American employee? If so, today’s column will likely offend you. If you’d rather not be offended, read no further. If you continue and then complain, I’m sorry, but that simply proves you’re, well, stupid. But then again, stupidity plays a large role in today’s topic.

Still reading? OK. You’ve had fair warning.

So you’re an American employee. Maybe you make car parts. Maybe you’re an engineer or designer. Maybe you’re an accountant, store clerk or tradesman. Whatever you do, you’re probably stupid or lazy. Yes, I wrote it, and I mean it. You are either stupid or lazy. Maybe both.

Now, I’m not referring to your work ethic or job performance. No, most of you are competent and devoted to your profession or vocation. I’m addressing the way you view economics and employment. I’m challenging your gumption to advocate for yourself and your fellow Americans. Here’s what I mean.

Remember the Reagan standard? Are you better off today than you were a decade ago? Two decades? Three? Unless you make more than $380,000 a year, the answer is no. In fact, your standard of living over the last quarter century has actually decreased while millionaires have added 30 percent to their net wealth. Why? Two reasons.

First, hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs went overseas while the politicians you elected did nothing to stop them. Yet you continue to elect leaders who offer nothing but tax cuts, as if that would stem the flow of disappearing jobs.

Did you demand your leaders address America’s trade imbalance or continuous outsourcing of jobs? Did you demand your leaders require foreign countries to buy a dollar’s worth of American goods for every dollar of goods they sell here?

No and no. You didn’t bother. You simply crossed your fingers and prayed, “I hope my job’s not next.” You made concessions to your employer and hoped that would stem the exodus of jobs, or at least yours. How’d that work for you?

Second, you bought into the myth that unions are the cause of America’s demise. You didn’t bother to learn America became a world power when union membership was at its peak. You didn’t bother to learn America became the envy of the world while 1 of every 3 Americans was a union member.

So, how are things going for you? How do your benefits compare to a quarter century ago? Are you paying a higher or lower percentage of your income for health insurance? Does your company offer a pension plan, or do you now fund your own 401(k)?

Maybe you’re thinking, “I’m not a union worker, so this doesn’t affect me.”

Stop being stupid. Union benefits provide a standard other companies have to match, or at least come close to. When those benefits are cut, yours are, too. Or do you think you operate in your own little employment vacuum?

To make matters worse, you’re again being played for a chump. The same puppets who did nothing while your standard of living decreased are now using the oldest gimmick in the book — jealousy — to continue their assault on American workers. Rather than protect Americans’ jobs, they deflect your attention through jealousy.

“Cut the pay of government workers,” they cry. “Increase their health premiums. Decrease their pensions. Break their unions. After all, you’ve suffered so they should suffer too.” And in your misery, you buy their argument while more jobs head oversees. Pretty stupid, eh?

If their antics weren’t so pathetic, if the consequences weren’t so dire, if they didn’t prey on your stupidity, and if you didn’t buy into their convoluted reasoning, this whole situation would be laughable. But of course it’s not.

I warned you I’d likely offend you, and I suspect I did. But once you overcome your anger, consider my analysis. Then, either wise up and do something about it, or resign yourself to a lower standard of living for the next decade.

:applaud

The biggest problem is that American and European labor has refused to make itself competitive in a more globalized world. We live in a world now where we aren't just competing with each other, but we're also competing with the Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese, etc. We have come to expect that if we go to college, we're entitled to a job with certain benefits. And yes, unions have helped make it worse. They aren't the only group that deserves blame, far from it, but union leadership has indeed become part of the problem.

Here's a Flash Fact, an employer isn't obligated to its employees. It's obligated to its investors to make as much money as possible. That is why they have outsourced to foreign countries because Asian and African workers are more willing to be paid less with less benefits while working more efficiently and in more dangerous conditions than those of Western workers.

You want jobs to come back to America, things need to change. Union leadership needs to realize that this isn't 1911, it's 2011. The American workforce needs to make itself more competitive. And the government needs to find ways to entice employers to hire Americans. There can be a middle ground found where the American worker can still live decently while being more competitive in this world.
 
Because if the Labor Unions went away, I'm sure that business wouldn't want to resort back to the old status quo. Oh no...




Maine GOP Legislators Looking To Loosen Child Labor Laws



I'm sure that all the rights that Labor fought for would remain and business wouldn't try to take advantage of the workers at all.



:doom: :doom: :doom:

Yeap. Those kids in Maine will soon be working in factories again. This is a good thing though....2 income households will now become 5 income households.

Thank you public unions for keeping our kids out of the coal mines.
 
Considering the fiscal condition that California is in, you really want to call that state awake?

It's not because of unions. It's because of a lack of revenue as a result of high unemployment. One of the solutions to that problem is to bring back jobs to the state.
 
It's not because of unions. It's because of a lack of revenue as a result of high unemployment. One of the solutions to that problem is to bring back jobs to the state.
Why is it that the states with the highest tax rates are the states with forced public unions?
 
It's not because of unions. It's because of a lack of revenue as a result of high unemployment. One of the solutions to that problem is to bring back jobs to the state.

Unions are one reason. Another reason is California's tax code. Another is the reason that you mention. Another is that voters constantly approve of various spending bills. Another is that California's budget is too big. Another is....well you get the point that California has a whole mess of problems and trying to bring it down to one reason is just absurd.
 
The biggest problem is that American and European labor has refused to make itself competitive in a more globalized world. We live in a world now where we aren't just competing with each other, but we're also competing with the Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese, etc. We have come to expect that if we go to college, we're entitled to a job with certain benefits. And yes, unions have helped make it worse. They aren't the only group that deserves blame, far from it, but union leadership has indeed become part of the problem.

Here's a Flash Fact, an employer isn't obligated to its employees. It's obligated to its investors to make as much money as possible. That is why they have outsourced to foreign countries because Asian and African workers are more willing to be paid less with less benefits while working more efficiently and in more dangerous conditions than those of Western workers.

You want jobs to come back to America, things need to change. Union leadership needs to realize that this isn't 1911, it's 2011. The American workforce needs to make itself more competitive. And the government needs to find ways to entice employers to hire Americans. There can be a middle ground found where the American worker can still live decently while being more competitive in this world.

A few comments. As of January, Germany has a unemployment rate of 6.5%. That country has a very close relationship with trade unions.

Secondly, a lot of the benefits that we enjoy (or enjoyed) are on the account of unions. I wouldn't say that they ruined anything or made anything worse. In fact one could argue that it's the lack of unions (now 7% of the private sector labor force) that is the culprit. 50 years ago when labor unions were at it's peak, the economy was great (much so that we started and eventually sent men to the moon).

My third point is that everyone is obligated to follow the law and to honor their contractual agreement. If the contract says that the employer must pay the employee for hours worked, he must honor that agreement (be it verbal, written, implied, etc.). This notion that an employer isn't obligated to an employee is more hogwash that it is fact.

Finally, if jobs are to come back to America, here is what really needs to be done:


  • The current tax system encourages businesses to move over seas, since they can shelter their profits made there from any U.S. taxes (even if the goods are sold in the United States). If the laws were to change to prevent that there would be less of an incentive to move jobs abroad.

  • Remove any tax credits/deductions for moving a business overseas.

  • Give tax credits to businesses who move overseas jobs back to the USA.
Sure, this isn't 1911, but we musn't forget the past for it will certainly come back (like it seems to be now).
 
A few comments. As of January, Germany has a unemployment rate of 6.5%. That country has a very close relationship with trade unions.
While Germany may have a low unemployment rate, you fail to bring up that just like the rest of Europe and fellow major exporter Japan, Germany's economy is very stagnant.

And you also have Germans complaining about cheap labor pouring in from Eastern Europe.

EDIT: You also have to take into account that while Germany's economy is currently stagnant like the rest of the Western world's, German exports being in demand right now helps them quite a bit. Sorta like how back in the 1950's American exports were in demand. Reviving American manufacturing would be a great help to the economy.

Secondly, a lot of the benefits that we enjoy (or enjoyed) are on the account of unions. I wouldn't say that they ruined anything or made anything worse. In fact one could argue that it's the lack of unions (now 7% of the private sector labor force) that is the culprit. 50 years ago when labor unions were at it's peak, the economy was great (much so that we started and eventually sent men to the moon).
Don't get me wrong in thinking that the concept of a union is wrong. There is nothing wrong with banding together to make working conditions better. The problem is that unions are stuck to an outdated model of the world.

When you mention of how 50 years ago when labor unions were at their peak and how the economy was great, that was because we didn't have China to compete with in the workforce. Back then outsourcing labor to Asia wasn't feasible.

Today's economy is very different than the economy of 50 years ago. Our cultures are very different. Today's culture feels entitled to something as opposed to 50 years ago when people actually worked harder. Today's economy wasn't as globalized as it is today, where 50 years ago if China just suddenly blew up no one would notice or care; today we'd be screwed if that happened.

Sorry but you can't apply yesterday's world to today's world. It's a whole new ball game with different rules. That is why unions have declined, because they refuse to evolve with the times. If unions were more accepting of the globalized economy, I'm willing to bet that we'd see much higher unionization rates in the United States.

My third point is that everyone is obligated to follow the law and to honor their contractual agreement. If the contract says that the employer must pay the employee for hours worked, he must honor that agreement (be it verbal, written, implied, etc.). This notion that an employer isn't obligated to an employee is more hogwash that it is fact.
Employers are only obligated to honor their agreements with workers and provide a safe work environment. That is it. But they don't have any actual moral obligation beyond that.

Finally, if jobs are to come back to America, here is what really needs to be done:


  • The current tax system encourages businesses to move over seas, since they can shelter their profits made there from any U.S. taxes (even if the goods are sold in the United States). If the laws were to change to prevent that there would be less of an incentive to move jobs abroad.

  • Remove any tax credits/deductions for moving a business overseas.

  • Give tax credits to businesses who move overseas jobs back to the USA.
Sure, this isn't 1911, but we musn't forget the past for it will certainly come back (like it seems to be now).
You're absolutely right that the tax code needs to change in order to promote American jobs. But that is not enough. The American workforce needs to learn how to compete better with Asia and regain our former advantages, and union leadership needs to evolve to today's economy instead of acting like ancient dinosaurs. Just doing one of those three things are not enough. Completely getting rid or labor unions aren't going to solve our problems. All of these things have to happen. This is an issue that not only our government has to tackle, but everyone.
 
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*sighs* and then to the courts...lol
 

[YT]L1CEroViBFk[/YT]
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So one of the FAA controller that fell asleep the other day apparently also fell asleep twice in January and guess what...he has not been fired. Good ole' Unions doing their job. This was from Fox News Sunday yesterday:

LAHOOD: Chris, I have been in the job two-and-a-half years. I don't know when I've ever been madder. I'm outraged about this. I want the plying public to know that we're doing everything we can, 24/7, to correct this problem.

WALLACE: I mean, forgive me for being skeptical. But if a guy is able to fall asleep twice in January and comes back and falls asleep in April, and you, as the secretary of transportation, or head of the FAA, can't fire him, isn't that a problem?

LAHOOD: Well, Chris, we can -- we can fire him. But there has to be due diligence and there has to be an opportunity for an investigation to go on so that we have, make sure we have the information.

Does it take 4 months to do an investigation on why the guy fell asleep twice in January? And then continue to do an investigation when he falls asleep a third time in April? All the while he is on PAID leave. Yes folks, the guy that has fallen asleep three times on the job is not fired but is on paid leave.

This is exactly what public Unions are today.
 
Hey just like there is a 27 point process, and 2 years of documentation needed to fire a teacher.....EVEN IN A NON-UNION STATE....
 
All of these example in here of how corrupt and stiffling unions are and the only excuse in here that people can come up with is what if they didn't exist and the guy doing the hiring wanted to hire a family member.
 
The White House vs. Boeing: A Tennessee Tale

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...351491180.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

The National Labor Relations Board has moved to stop Boeing from building airplanes at a nonunion plant in South Carolina. The Board suggests that a unionized American company cannot, without violating federal labor law, expand its operations into one of the 22 states with right-to-work laws, which protect a worker's right to join or not join a union. (New Hampshire's legislature has just approved its becoming the 23rd.
Unions are for unions. Period. Don't let them feed you bull about how they are for the workers. They're for the workers only if those workers belong to a union. Otherwise, why would they oppose people in right-to-work states getting jobs? And free choice? Right. They only want operations in states where union membership is mandatory.

In 1985, General Motors located its $5 billion Saturn plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., 40 miles from Nissan, hoping side-by-side competition would help the Americans beat the Japanese. After 25 years, nonunion Nissan operated the most efficient auto plant in North America. The Saturn/UAW partnership never made a profit. GM closed Saturn last year.
Yep. That about sums it up. Oh, and Nissan workers at the Smyrna, TN, plant have declined to unionize three times since the plant opened. I wonder why? :awesome:
 

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