Discussion: Feminism and Sexism

[moviedoors]

Good luck figuring out who is transgendered. It would be a huge violation of someone's rights to force them to show their private area in order to figure out if they're male or female. Your example is moot. It would never fly.

If the airline tried to move the 2 monks, they would have had a hell of a time and pissed off more people who would have their seats changed. Changing the woman's seat was the easiest option. And like I said, I would really only be super pissed if my new seat was crappier than the one I initially booked. That would be discrimination. What if she was moved to a first class seat? Would she complain? I would rather be moved than sit next to a couple of monks that can't/won't interact with me. Especially if I need them to get up so I can go to the bathroom.

For me, it all depends on the new seats. If the monks requested not to be seated next to a woman and they were moved to first class, screw that. But if they had to keep their regular seats and the woman they were seated next to was upgraded, then all the better.

So it isn't about the morality at play, but what benefits you could squeeze out of it. I suppose that is rather capitalist.

Here's what I think the airline should've done: told the monks "no."

 

[DeadPresident]

I hate that argument and here's why:


You're essentially arguing for the West to sink to the level of less developed countries where human rights are violated and oppression is the norm. When someone says "in Indonesia, I have to cover up, so in the US, Muslims shouldn't be allowed to wear hijabs," they are saying that we shouldn't uphold our values of inclusivity and freedom because other countries don't. How effing stupid is that?

This is the response I was hoping to illicit.

And I agree, at some point people are going to have to admit that at a cultural level the West is primarily a more moral place in comparison to a lot of the world. People aren't skinning dogs alive and eating them, performing honor killings on family members or using chemical weapons against their own citizens, etc.

That being said, when being open and inclusive to people who will act against the system of inclusivity it's correct to exclude those people. If a moral system isn't capable of defending its sovereignty it will just be usurped.

 

[moviedoors]

You're essentially arguing for the West to sink to the level of less developed countries where human rights are violated and oppression is the norm.

But that's literally what the airline did! They sunk to the monk's backwards level instead of defending this woman.

 

[Donner]

But that's literally what the airline did! They sunk to the monk's backwards level instead of defending this woman.

What are they supposed to do? Tell the monks to abandon their religious beliefs? That's not what we do in the West.

How are they supposed to defend her? Are you saying the airline staff should have lectured these monks on how men and women are equal and then expected the monks to just shrug their shoulders and go "yeah, you're right."? Like I said before, if I was sitting next to a couple of monks that didn't want to interact with me (and can't be forced to because we aren't in kindergarten), and I wanted them to move so I could get up and go to the bathroom and they didn't, I would be pissed and likely would ask to be moved (which is exactly what the airline did). So perhaps what should have happened is for the airline to say no, the woman sits next to the monks, the woman has a heck of a time dealing with the monks who won't talk to her, the woman eventually gets frustrated and asks to be moved, and then switches seats with someone else.

Or maybe the airline should have asked her first. Is that more reasonable? Then she would have a choice of either sitting next to people who won't talk to her (which some people prefer) or moving to a different seat.

 

[Donner]

Maybe the policy should be that you have to pay extra (or a fine) if you have "special" requests of who you will and will not sit next to. I would be okay with that.

 

[DeadPresident]

What are they supposed to do? Tell the monks to abandon their religious beliefs? That's not what we do in the West.

How are they supposed to defend her? Are you saying the airline staff should have lectured these monks on how men and women are equal and then expected the monks to just shrug their shoulders and go "yeah, you're right."? Like I said before, if I was sitting next to a couple of monks that didn't want to interact with me (and can't be forced to because we aren't in kindergarten), and I wanted them to move so I could get up and go to the bathroom and they didn't, I would be pissed and likely would ask to be moved (which is exactly what the airline did). So perhaps what should have happened is for the airline to say no, the woman sits next to the monks, the woman has a heck of a time dealing with the monks who won't talk to her, the woman eventually gets frustrated and asks to be moved, and then switches seats with someone else.

Or maybe the airline should have asked her first. Is that more reasonable? Then she would have a choice of either sitting next to people who won't talk to her (which some people prefer) or moving to a different seat.

And that is why the West will slowly and systematically fade into irrelevance. It has lost the spine and will to protect the values that made it great. Because, instead of encouraging immigrants to live up to the Western values they purport to strive for, in actuality the West is just going to be dragged down to the level of the backwater cultures that will populate it.

 

[Donner]

And that is why the West will slowly and systematically fade into irrelevance. It has lost the spine and will to protect the values that made it great. Because, instead of encouraging immigrants to live up to the Western values they purport to strive for, in actuality the West is just going to be dragged down to the level of the backwater cultures that will populate it.

That will only happen if we're outnumbered. Which is a possibility, but not in our lifetime.

I think the whole freak out over different cultures and their imposition on our values is so overstated. It's not a widespread thing. We hear about isolated incidents, but it's not like honour killings (without repercussion) are sweeping the nation or schools are banning pork. People are just over emotional and scared and thinking that their rights are being trumped. They're not.

Besides, we have bigger issues to worry about here than other cultures and their norms. Like rich, white, athletic kids not being handed severe punishments for rape, our treatment of minorities/veterans/mental illness/poor people, the disgusting rape culture that exists in our post secondary institutions, our health issues regarding our food and lack of exercise, etc etc. I find it hilarious that people are up in arms about two Pakistani monks who don't respect women when the US' criminal justice system just let Brock Turner out of prison after 3 months for raping an unconscious woman and taking pictures.

 

[DeadPresident]

That will only happen if we're outnumbered. Which is a possibility, but not in our lifetime.

I think the whole freak out over different cultures and their imposition on our values is so overstated. It's not a widespread thing. We hear about isolated incidents, but it's not like honour killings (without repercussion) are sweeping the nation or schools are banning pork. People are just over emotional and scared and thinking that their rights are being trumped. They're not.

Besides, we have bigger issues to worry about here than other cultures and their norms. Like rich, white, athletic kids not being handed severe punishments for rape, our treatment of minorities/veterans/mental illness/poor people, the disgusting rape culture that exists in our post secondary institutions, our health issues regarding our food and lack of exercise, etc etc. I find it hilarious that people are up in arms about two Pakistani monks who don't respect women when the US' criminal justice system just let Brock Turner out of prison after 3 months for raping an unconscious woman and taking pictures.

It won't be quick, which is exactly why it will happen. I'm sure you know the story of the frog in the pot, that's what will happen with western civilization. The average human never acts until it's urgently necessary. People don't think weekly knife attacks or terrorist attacks are bad enough yet, so we'll keep going into it actually becomes something akin to a civil war.

And at the same time western culture needs to reevaluate itself for some of the reasons you mentioned. The West has become apathetic in its success.

 

[moviedoors]

What are they supposed to do? Tell the monks to abandon their religious beliefs? That's not what we do in the West.

How are they supposed to defend her? Are you saying the airline staff should have lectured these monks on how men and women are equal and then expected the monks to just shrug their shoulders and go "yeah, you're right."? Like I said before, if I was sitting next to a couple of monks that didn't want to interact with me (and can't be forced to because we aren't in kindergarten), and I wanted them to move so I could get up and go to the bathroom and they didn't, I would be pissed and likely would ask to be moved (which is exactly what the airline did). So perhaps what should have happened is for the airline to say no, the woman sits next to the monks, the woman has a heck of a time dealing with the monks who won't talk to her, the woman eventually gets frustrated and asks to be moved, and then switches seats with someone else.

Or maybe the airline should have asked her first. Is that more reasonable? Then she would have a choice of either sitting next to people who won't talk to her (which some people prefer) or moving to a different seat.

It should've been entirely her choice. And if the answer is "no" then that's that. They don't need to educate the monks, but simply say "sorry, we can't accommodate that request."

 

[SV Fan]

Feminists will love this one:
http://m.torontosun.com/2016/10/03/...nger-forced-to-change-seats-for-being-a-woman

A. They should have moved her to first class

or

B. They should have moved them to the very back of the plane

 

[Anita18]

If the monks were flying an airline in a cultural region that they knew were totally different from their own, they should have bought out the seats next to them, IMO. Or chosen a different seat configuration where they wouldn't have to sit next to anyone else. That way they could 100% control who they sat next to.

I think United Airlines just chose the path of least resistance. Wouldn't blame them (easier to re-seat one person than having to do a weird shuffle or explaining to two misogynist men they'd have to buy 1-2 extra seats), but I don't think the UA employee needed to explain exactly why she was being re-seated. Like, geez, who taught that person customer service?

 

[BestGirl]

^I agree with that.

Personally, I don't think discrimination, religious or not, ought to be indulged by airlines or any other business. I get real tired of religion being placed on a pedestal anyway. OTOH I don't know how the airline could've resolved this without irritating the woman involved. Maybe bump her up to first class and ask the monks to pay the difference?

 

[SuperT]

A good customer service move would have been to bump her up to first class and not tell her why, just that she was randomly picked. They made a mistake in telling her about the misogynistic viewpoints of her seatmates - I'd have been upset too.

 

[Anita18]

A good customer service move would have been to bump her up to first class and not tell her why, just that she was randomly picked. They made a mistake in telling her about the misogynistic viewpoints of her seatmates - I'd have been upset too.

Exactly. She would have interpreted that as a total win, instead of what transpired.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Both have to do with women?

Yes

 

[Kelly]

Seriously, over 6 months later you reply?

 

[Kelly]

All I get out of the Airline's argument is...... The woman was sitting next to two people that would not talk to her?????? Hell yeah.....that is the perfect seat, I can read in peace.

That is all I got out of that....sorry. :/

 

[Galactus10]

Literally you.

You are funny.


but seriously, it's a laughable shirt. Not even a "get in therr and make a sammich" type of guy can deny that a woman is, in fact, a person

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Seriously, over 6 months later you reply?

better late than never. somehow I missed that response before, otherwise i would've gotten back earlier

 

[chaseter]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article133747504.html

Feminists: would you compete in sports against a transitioning female to male with testosterone in their system? Is that fair?

 

[Donner]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article133747504.html

Feminists: would you compete in sports against a transitioning female to male with testosterone in their system? Is that fair?

He should have been allowed to compete against the boys. This whole thing would have been avoided had those rules been bent for this exception.

Women have testosterone in their bodies as well. Tomboys have higher levels. It depends on the stage that the kid was at. But again, he should have been competing against the boys.

 

[KevanG]

I honestly have no clue where to start on a topic like that.

 

[Kelly]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article133747504.html

Feminists: would you compete in sports against a transitioning female to male with testosterone in their system? Is that fair?

Sure, why not?

 

[chaseter]

Sure, why not?

You would lose. Testosterone promotes muscle growth through greater protein synthesis.

 

[Kelly]

You would lose. Testosterone promotes muscle growth through greater protein synthesis.

What is your point, and why would you be asking feminists, why not ask women as a whole?

No actually my question is this? What the hell does that have to do with feminism? Except you trying to make a stupid play at starting an argument. A poor play, I might add.