Discussion: Health And Healthcare III

Actually I don't think it will. I'm thinking along these lines:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...tisan_divide_and_obama_s_health_care_law.html

The supreme hasn't done something unexpected in about as long as I can remember.

Agreed, I just don't see the Supreme Court holding up the individual mandate. Alito, Scalia, and Thomas will most definitely rule against the individual mandate. Kagan, Sotomayer, Ginsberg, and Breyer will most definitely rule for it.

That really just leaves two possible swing votes in the Supreme Court: Roberts and Kennedy. While the both of them favor a slightly stronger interpretation of the Commerce Clause, they both still believe in limits of federal power.

Kennedy himself sided with the 1995 court case where Chief Justice Rehnquist stated: "It is difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power, if we were to accept the government’s arguments, we are hard pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate." Most of the time he sides with the liberal wing of the court, it's on the issues of civil liberties.

Roberts is a person who favors precedent and would probably want to establish a firm precedent that states just how far federal power can go. He also appears to have a personal dislike of Barack Obama.

Add in the fact that the government's defense of Obamacare has been rather flimsy at best, even at the cases that they have prevailed. As a matter in fact, I would call the government's defense of the law to be amateur hour. They're trying to paint the health care industry as unique to the rest of the economy, something that really won't hold up because they can say that anything is unique. And some of the lawyers just aren't that good, one of them even said that it isn't unconstitutional to require people to buy broccoli.
 
Agreed, I just don't see the Supreme Court holding up the individual mandate. Alito, Scalia, and Thomas will most definitely rule against the individual mandate. Kagan, Sotomayer, Ginsberg, and Breyer will most definitely rule for it.

That really just leaves two possible swing votes in the Supreme Court: Roberts and Kennedy. While the both of them favor a slightly stronger interpretation of the Commerce Clause, they both still believe in limits of federal power.

Kennedy himself sided with the 1995 court case where Chief Justice Rehnquist stated: "It is difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power, if we were to accept the government’s arguments, we are hard pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate." Most of the time he sides with the liberal wing of the court, it's on the issues of civil liberties.

Roberts is a person who favors precedent and would probably want to establish a firm precedent that states just how far federal power can go. He also appears to have a personal dislike of Barack Obama.

Add in the fact that the government's defense of Obamacare has been rather flimsy at best, even at the cases that they have prevailed. As a matter in fact, I would call the government's defense of the law to be amateur hour. They're trying to paint the health care industry as unique to the rest of the economy, something that really won't hold up because they can say that anything is unique. And some of the lawyers just aren't that good, one of them even said that it isn't unconstitutional to require people to buy broccoli.

You shut up and eat your vegetables.
 
Agreed, I just don't see the Supreme Court holding up the individual mandate. Alito, Scalia, and Thomas will most definitely rule against the individual mandate. Kagan, Sotomayer, Ginsberg, and Breyer will most definitely rule for it.

That really just leaves two possible swing votes in the Supreme Court: Roberts and Kennedy. While the both of them favor a slightly stronger interpretation of the Commerce Clause, they both still believe in limits of federal power.

Kennedy himself sided with the 1995 court case where Chief Justice Rehnquist stated: "It is difficult to perceive any limitation on federal power, if we were to accept the government’s arguments, we are hard pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate." Most of the time he sides with the liberal wing of the court, it's on the issues of civil liberties.

Roberts is a person who favors precedent and would probably want to establish a firm precedent that states just how far federal power can go. He also appears to have a personal dislike of Barack Obama.

Add in the fact that the government's defense of Obamacare has been rather flimsy at best, even at the cases that they have prevailed. As a matter in fact, I would call the government's defense of the law to be amateur hour. They're trying to paint the health care industry as unique to the rest of the economy, something that really won't hold up because they can say that anything is unique. And some of the lawyers just aren't that good, one of them even said that it isn't unconstitutional to require people to buy broccoli.

You all will be in for a surprise that Justice Scalia. I 2005, he gave an opinion that said that Congress had the power to regulate inactivity so long as it influenced interstate commerce. You might even get Kennedy to concur.
 
Marijuana is vastly different than health care insurance.
 
Marijuana is vastly different than health care insurance.

Be it illegal, the sale Marajuana is commerce and is subject to the regulation of Congress just like healthcare. Growing Marajuana at home impacts the market price and hence the inactivity is subject to government regulation -- just like not buying healthcare. Scalia did not speak into specifics when he gave his opinion. That means that what he said covered any type of commerce, even healthcare.
 
Scalia isn't going to use that argument in regards to healthcare. Marijuana has always been an illegal substance. Healthcare on the other hand, has always been a legitimate market. Prohibiting someone from buying something is vastly different than forcing someone to buy something.

Also take into account that this is a very partisan Court.
 
Yes, that mirrors my feelings. Although hemp has been legal in the US for longer than illegal.
 
I found this interesting:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...he_supreme_court_will_hear_on_obamacare_.html

Particularly:

The court asked the parties to brief and argue for an hour whether the lawsuit brought by the states challenging the insurance mandate is barred by the 19th century Anti-Injunction Act. That’s a law that precludes claimants from asking for a refund on a tax until the tax has been collected and paid. If the court were to determine that this law applies in this case, then the courts wouldn't have jurisdiction to even consider the challenges until 2015, when the tax-penalty provision goes into effect. This argument was advanced in the 4th Circuit decision upholding the ACA and made with even more force by Judge Brett Kavanaugh in the District of Columbia Circuit Court of Appeals when it upheld the ACA last week. In a 65-page dissent, Kavanaugh writes: “For judges, there is a natural and understandable inclination to decide these weighty and historic constitutional questions. But in my respectful judgment, deciding the constitutional issues in this case at this time would contravene … the Anti- Injunction Act.”

And:

That brings us to what was, even for observers who have closely tracked these lawsuits, the real surprise today. The court also agreed to hear a fourth issue, also for an hour: the claim of the 26 Republican state officials that the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid coverage should be struck down, on the ground that it unconstitutionally “coerces” state governments. Potentially, the court’s disposition of this issue could cripple the federal government’s capacity to promote national policy goals more gravely than even a decision to overturn the ACA individual mandate, and thereby limit congressional authority to regulate interstate commerce.
The ACA prescribes that, beginning in 2014, Medicaid (which is administered by the states with a combination of federal and state funds) will cover all adults with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty line. Currently, state Medicaid programs are required only to cover children and their parents or caretakers, adults with disabilities, and poor individuals over 65. The ACA itself doesn’t force the states to accept this incremental financial and administrative responsibility: They retain the option, available since Medicaid was first enacted in 1965, of refusing participation in the program, the funds that go along with it, and the conditions that go along with the funds.
 
Scalia isn't going to use that argument in regards to healthcare. Marijuana has always been an illegal substance. Healthcare on the other hand, has always been a legitimate market. Prohibiting someone from buying something is vastly different than forcing someone to buy something.

Also take into account that this is a very partisan Court.

You misunderstand. Scalia's opinion was about the Commerce Clause and the scope of the Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce. You should read his opinion again. Although the case in question was about the cultivation of Marijuana, he cited other cases that use the Commerce Clause, that didn't. There should be no reason why he wouldn't use that same frame of logic for health care or health insurance. If he doesn't then my question to him would be "who paid you off?"
 
Opening Briefs Filed in Health Reform Challenge

Parties today filed opening briefs in the cases challenging the federal Affordable Care Act, now before the Court. We covered the Court's grant and argument schedule here.
The government filed its opening brief defending the minimum coverage provision, also called the individual mandate, under the Commerce Clause, the Necessary and Proper Clause, and Congress's taxing power. As we might expect, the government emphasizes the congressional findings in the act and the data supporting its argument that everyone is in the relevant market. It defends Congress's power to enact the provision principally as an essential part of a larger regulatory scheme:
The minimum coverage provision plays a critical role in that comprehensive regulatory scheme by regulating how health care consumption is financed. It creates an incentive for individuals to finance their participation in the health care market by means of insurance, the customary way of paying for health care in this country, and it works in tandem with the Act's other provisions to expand the availability and affordability of health insurance coverage. In particular, the minimum coverage provision is key to the viability of the Act's guaranteed-issue and community-rating provision.
Brief, at 17-18.
The government also defends the provision as a stand-alone regulation of commerce. In particular, it argues that the election to self-insure is an economic act that Congress can regulate and hotly disputes the opponents' claim that some self-insured are non-cost-shifters, thus not subject to regulation:
The circumstances of this case well illustrate the flaws in respondents' premises. At the outset of this litigation, respondent Mary Brown thought she had made a rational choice to forgo insurance . . . . That belief proved incorrect. Ms. Brown and her husband recently filed a petition for bankruptcy, and they list among their liabilities thousands of dollars in unpaid medical bills, including bills from out-of-state providers.
Brief, at 44. The government forcefully challenges the claimed distinction between "activity" and "inactivity," and argues that the self-insured aren't "inactive" in this market, anyway. Brief, at 47-52.
Also today the state petitioners and private petitioners filed their briefs on severability. The arguments are very similar and familiar. The states summarize:
Severability is a remedial inquiry that turns on legislative intent. The ultimate question is not whether the balance of an act can function independently without an invalidated provision. That is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for preserving the balance of the statute. The ultimate question is whether Congress would have enacted the statute without the invalidated provision. Here, the answer is clear[: No.]
Brief, at 24.
Recall that the connection between the government's principal argument--that the minimum coverage provision is an essential part of the larger ACA--and the state and private petitioners' argument--that the minimum coverage provision is not severable--was a focus of Judge Vinson's ruling (holding that the minimum coverage provision exceeded Congress's authority, and that it was not severable, because the government said that it formed an essential part of the ACA) earlier in this litigation.
The briefs today break little new ground. The fundamental arguments are familiar, even if they're sharpened, considerably.
SDS
 
No clue where else to ask this, but is anyone else following the plan b vending machine controversy that's happening at Towson university in Maryland? Is anything similar happening elsewhere?
 
Obama to cut healthcare benefits for active duty and retired US military

http://freebeacon.com/trashing-tricare/

The Obama administration’s proposed defense budget calls for military families and retirees to pay sharply more for their healthcare, while leaving unionized civilian defense workers’ benefits untouched.
Unions good. Soldiers bad.
 
Mamma Hippie Hunter isn't going to be happy about that.
 
Mamma Hippie Hunter isn't going to be happy about that.

I'm sorry for Ma Hunter if this goes through.

Significantly, the plan calls for increases between 30 percent to 78 percent in Tricare annual premiums for the first year. After that, the plan will impose five-year increases ranging from 94 percent to 345 percent—more than 3 times current levels.

According to congressional assessments, a retired Army colonel with a family currently paying $460 a year for health care will pay $2,048.
If this were a health insurance company, those kind of premium increases would be loudly denounced by the same people who are going to be mostly quiet now.
 
Obama to cut healthcare benefits for active duty and retired US military

http://freebeacon.com/trashing-tricare/

Unions good. Soldiers bad.

Just keep in mind that the administration has to cut around $487 billion out of the defense budget over the next 10 years by law (see the Budget Control Act passed last year). This was a trigger that went off as a result of a failure of congress to make cuts during the joint committee hearings last August. I like how they spin this as the president being the bad guy because he is cutting the health-care benefits of military families (especially when there are folks on this forum who think that TRICARE sucks anyway). Just for the record, military families might see an increase in their health care premiums, but at least they are not the 7,500 civilian DoD employees that will be losing their jobs as a result of the same budget cuts (yeah, so much for unions).
 
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Just keep in mind that the administration has to cut around $487 billion out of the defense budget over the next 10 years by law (see the Budget Control Act passed last year). This was a trigger that went off as a result of a failure of congress to make cuts during the joint committee hearings last August. I like how they spin this as the president being the bad guy because he is cutting the health-care benefits of military families (especially when there are folks on this forum who think that TRICARE sucks anyway). Just for the record, military families might see an increase in their health care premiums, but at least they are not the 7,500 civilian DoD employees that will be losing their jobs as a result of the same budget cuts (yeah, so much for unions).
The state of military health care is pretty horrific. Especially considering how sub-par most VAs are.

And when most hospitals refuse to accept your insurance on the grounds that they don't pay and force people to go to substandard clinics and go to places hours away for health care services, your insurance blows whether it's public or private. Any insurance company that acts like TRICARE would have gone out of business years ago.

TRICARE needs reform, not making something that is already bad, evem worse.
 
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CBO: Obamacare to cost $1.76 Trillion over 10 Years

http://campaign2012.washingtonexami...bamacare-cost-176-trillion-over-10-yrs/425831

That's up from the $900 billion or so we were originally told. I suppose this is what they meant when they said they would "bend the cost curve downward." :o

Today, the CBO released new projections from 2013 extending through 2022, and the results are as critics expected: the ten-year cost of the law's core provisions to expand health insurance coverage has now ballooned to $1.76 trillion. That's because we now have estimates for Obamacare's first nine years of full implementation, rather than the mere six when it was signed into law. Only next year will we get a true ten-year cost estimate, if the law isn't overturned by the Supreme Court or repealed by then. Given that in 2022, the last year available, the gross cost of the coverage expansions are $265 billion, we're likely looking at about $2 trillion over the first decade, or more than double what Obama advertised.
Wow, I thought that with our history of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, who could have possibly suspected that costs would be more than originally predicted by the people pushing it? Thanks, Obamacare! :awesome:
 
Personally I hope the Supreme's knock it down. No one has the right to penalize me for simply existing. Last I checked, the right to life was the very first part of that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness schtick. Being alive is not like driving a car. Driving a car is a privilege and so requiring insurance makes sense. Being alive/existing is a right.
 
CBO: Obamacare to cost $1.76 Trillion over 10 Years

http://campaign2012.washingtonexami...bamacare-cost-176-trillion-over-10-yrs/425831

That's up from the $900 billion or so we were originally told. I suppose this is what they meant when they said they would "bend the cost curve downward." :o

Wow, I thought that with our history of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, who could have possibly suspected that costs would be more than originally predicted by the people pushing it? Thanks, Obamacare! :awesome:

That was the 2011 projections. The CBO is saying that figure is now $1.1 trillion over 10 years. This information is an estimate and will never be exact until it actually happens. That's a little over $100 billion a year. You want to complain about that, then why not complain about the Bush tax cuts. Over a similar period of time that plus Medicare part D (with the doughnut hole) cost about the same amount of money.
 

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