The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[Jokers_Wild]

That's pretty good actually. Not a bad idea.

 

[BestGirl]

It didn't make sense for me that Harvey would point a gun to his head before deciding Gordon's son's fate, anyway.

Maybe he was trying to give Gordon's son another chance to live. I'm sure he didn't feel good about killing a kid, no matter how angry he was, so perhaps Harvey and not Two-Face made that call.

 

[Anita18]

Maybe he was trying to give Gordon's son another chance to live. I'm sure he didn't feel good about killing a kid, no matter how angry he was, so perhaps Harvey and not Two-Face made that call.

I think he was trying to mess up Gordon psychologically. If he shoots himself, Gordon would be blaming himself over what happened to him. If he doesn't, then his son could die. Either way, it's lose/lose for Gordon.

 

[BestGirl]

^Could be, though it's also possible that we're over-analyzing this and Two-Face was so out of his mind with pain and rage that he was no longer thinking logically about what he was doing.

 

[DACrowe]

I honestly think that would be a cool ending with Two-Face judging himself and committing suicide. It would make Dent even more sympathetic. But I think Batman, like a flaw in many comics, is too reactionary and Nolan wanted the final action to be Batman taking a proactive stance that only increases the grayness and moral ambiguity in the film.

As for Dent turning the gun on himself, it did two things. It showed that under all the villainry that Harvey Dent is still buried in there somewhere and he obviously doesn't want to kill the kid (nor do I think he wanted to kill Ramierez...on the-other-hand he really wanted to kill that other cop and Maroni...and the Joker...dammit). So, he was letting chance give the Gordons an out. Chance did not.

It also showed the audience just how insane and unbalanced Dent is. He just isn't a villain, it also explains his actions a little bit, because he really is insane at this point and is completely off his rocker. Because, in all honesty, it is a hard jump to go from crusading DA to child killer and this made it a little more believable. And killing Dent there avoided one of the hardest aspects of the comics...the mafia-hating Dent becomes the mafioso Two-Face. It is why I always really liked Loeb's take, because even as a villain he is ultimately trying to clean up the city in his own twisted way.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Batman was supposed to jump on TwoFace just in time to save Gordon's son. Had he chosen to leave himself for last, batman would have stopped him before we had a chance to see that he was for real, ready to pass his twisted judgement even on himself.

 

[Mr. Para-Normal]

The reason dent pointed the gun at himself was because he WAS juding himself. He shot batman then fliped the coin for himself. Then for gordons son.

 

[Doc Samson]

And killing Dent there avoided one of the hardest aspects of the comics...the mafia-hating Dent becomes the mafioso Two-Face. It is why I always really liked Loeb's take, because even as a villain he is ultimately trying to clean up the city in his own twisted way.

Agreed. Harvey is still fighting crime, just now, instead of all the legal crap he leaves it to the coin. Dent shouldn't be some mafia figure, I always believed Two-Face should be a murderous vigilante more than a murderous crime boss. His frustation with Gordon goes all the way back to the rooftop scene where he has to sneak and turn the signal on himself to meet Batman because Gordon wasn't going to do it, along with Gordon using corrupt cops in his unit

 

[The Caped Knight]

Batman talking the blame for the crimes of Two-Face shows how much Bruce really cares about Gotham City . He rather take the blame so the image of Gotham's White Knight - Havery Dent would remain as a symbol of hope for the citizens of Gotham . Realizing that he crusade of cleaning up Gotham would now be a burden on his life forever and for the time being he will have to remain an outlaw because he can take it .

 

[Doc Samson]

Another observation after yet another viewing. Just how much did Gotham really show Batman that they were willing to believe in good? He doesn't know because he was battling the Joker, but the civilian ferry voted to blow up the other one, they just didn't have the stones to go through with it. And the vote wasn't all that close either.

Batman takes the wrap for Dent to preserve his image to these people, but they were willing to kill Mr. Reese to prevent the hospital from blowing up. Would these same people not understand Harvey Dent snapping and killing the bad guys responsible for his would-be wife's murder? It's not like he got the chance to murder Gordon's son, everyone he killed was corrupt, and the citizens of Gotham showed twice that they were on the verge of doing some shady things too in order to serve justice, or at least their idea of justice. These people aren't all that innocent, after watching this again, was Batman making the right decision? I used to think so, I'm not so sure anymore...

 

[graveyardtramp]

The third act of BEGINS was the least impressive and enjoyable part of that film for me, so I found the climax of TDK much more satisfying....it fit the tone of the film almost perfectly.

However I do think that the Nolans painted themselves into something of a corner by not having Batman take off his mask at the climax. Not that I wanted him to, and obviously Batman should never reveal his identity to Gordon, let alone his family and Dent. But with the way the character had been established earlier in the film it probably would have made sense....

Batman tells Dent earlier in the film that "No more people will die because of me", and he intends to reveal himself until Dent steps in and takes the rap. Then at the end, when Dent has a gun pointed Gordon's sons' head and says "Why was I the only one who suffered?" and Batman says "You weren't", Batman could have revealed his identity and shown Dent that he also lost a big part of his life when Rachel died. Dent knew how much Bruce and Racheal meant to each other, the revelation that Bruce is Batman could have pulled Dent from the edge of the abyss once he realised that both he and Bruce/Batman shared a common loss and it wasn't just him that suffered.

 

[NickyTea]

Another observation after yet another viewing. Just how much did Gotham really show Batman that they were willing to believe in good? He doesn't know because he was battling the Joker, but the civilian ferry voted to blow up the other one, they just didn't have the stones to go through with it. And the vote wasn't all that close either.

Batman takes the wrap for Dent to preserve his image to these people, but they were willing to kill Mr. Reese to prevent the hospital from blowing up. Would these same people not understand Harvey Dent snapping and killing the bad guys responsible for his would-be wife's murder? It's not like he got the chance to murder Gordon's son, everyone he killed was corrupt, and the citizens of Gotham showed twice that they were on the verge of doing some shady things too in order to serve justice, or at least their idea of justice. These people aren't all that innocent, after watching this again, was Batman making the right decision? I used to think so, I'm not so sure anymore...

It's what they do that defines them. And what they did is NOT blow each other up.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The third act of BEGINS was the least impressive and enjoyable part of that film for me, so I found the climax of TDK much more satisfying....it fit the tone of the film almost perfectly.

However I do think that the Nolans painted themselves into something of a corner by not having Batman take off his mask at the climax. Not that I wanted him to, and obviously Batman should never reveal his identity to Gordon, let alone his family and Dent. But with the way the character had been established earlier in the film it probably would have made sense....

Batman tells Dent earlier in the film that "No more people will die because of me", and he intends to reveal himself until Dent steps in and takes the rap. Then at the end, when Dent has a gun pointed Gordon's sons' head and says "Why was I the only one who suffered?" and Batman says "You weren't", Batman could have revealed his identity and shown Dent that he also lost a big part of his life when Rachel died. Dent knew how much Bruce and Racheal meant to each other, the revelation that Bruce is Batman could have pulled Dent from the edge of the abyss once he realised that both he and Bruce/Batman shared a common loss and it wasn't just him that suffered.

What could he have achieved with that? He would only have shown that Rachel's death is a blow to him as well. So? TwoFace wasnt gonna stop anyway.
Batman cant be revealing his identity at the end of every film. And more so to Gordon.
Some people can never know about it. Its the rule.

I can only accept Gordon knowing in Batman Beyond or whatever, when Bruce has retired and he and Gordon go for a cup of coffee every now and then to remember the old times.

 

[El Payaso]

It's what they do that defines them. And what they did is NOT blow each other up.

Exactly. Batman himself wants to kill Joker bad, but he klnows he can't do it for real. As he said, is what they doooooooooooooooooooooo.

What could he have achieved with that? He would only have shown that Rachel's death is a blow to him as well. So? TwoFace wasnt gonna stop anyway.
Batman cant be revealing his identity at the end of every film. And more so to Gordon.
Some people can never know about it. Its the rule.

The rule was not to kill. And Batman had to push Dent to his death in order to save the kid. I understand his decision but I'd say it was worthy to try at least to stop Dent by removing his mask. I mean, he was ready to do it publicly on TV before Dent said he was Batman, so it wasn't an unbreakable rule for him.

But yes, the problem is that is a cliché at this point. It happened on Batman Returns and itr happened to death in the Spiderman movies.

I can only accept Gordon knowing in Batman Beyond or whatever, when Bruce has retired and he and Gordon go for a cup of coffee every now and then to remember the old times.

He could have done it giving his back to Gordon.

 

[NickyTea]

The reason dent pointed the gun at himself was because he WAS juding himself. He shot batman then fliped the coin for himself. Then for gordons son.

Bingo.

If you're trying to judge Two-face's action with logic that somewhat resembles a societal norm, you'll be off the mark. This man is operating with a mentally absolutist dedication to a concept. Namely, chance.

In this extreme mindset, no one is exempt to the all encompassing nature of his ideal. Not even he, the enforcer.

 

[DACrowe]

Another observation after yet another viewing. Just how much did Gotham really show Batman that they were willing to believe in good? He doesn't know because he was battling the Joker, but the civilian ferry voted to blow up the other one, they just didn't have the stones to go through with it. And the vote wasn't all that close either.

Batman takes the wrap for Dent to preserve his image to these people, but they were willing to kill Mr. Reese to prevent the hospital from blowing up. Would these same people not understand Harvey Dent snapping and killing the bad guys responsible for his would-be wife's murder? It's not like he got the chance to murder Gordon's son, everyone he killed was corrupt, and the citizens of Gotham showed twice that they were on the verge of doing some shady things too in order to serve justice, or at least their idea of justice. These people aren't all that innocent, after watching this again, was Batman making the right decision? I used to think so, I'm not so sure anymore...

You're talking about a mob and not order. Or to quote Bruce's conscious from BB: "You're talking about revenge not justice. Justice is about creating harmony, revenge is about making yourself feel better."

The latter is what Dent did. Lynching a man who committed no crime and giving into terror is not justice, but fear and group-think violence. You may say "what's the difference," but there is one. And at the very least you know Batman would say the difference is as clear as day. Batman is order and the situations you describe are chaos.

 

[DACrowe]

Bingo.

If you're trying to judge Two-face's action with logic that somewhat resembles a societal norm, you'll be off the mark. This man is operating with a mentally absolutist dedication to a concept. Namely, chance.

In this extreme mindset, no one is exempt to the all encompassing nature of his ideal. Not even he, the enforcer.

Still, if you look at the movie independently from the comics and the logic that "Batman is the masked hero, Two-Face is the villain and Jim Gordon never knows who Batman is" and judge it just as a film -- it would somewhat make sense for Batman to unmask himself. It would be somewhat like what he did in Batman Returns, where he tries to pull a kindred spirit from the brink.

But Batman in this movie was willing to unmask to save faceless lives until Dent took the bullet for him (so to speak). To save Gordon's son's life without having to take one himself (espsecially Harvey Dent's) it would make sense he would try and reach out to Harvey in a way he should have earlier by unmasking himself.

And then you have two directions: Dent is awakened from his self-pitying insanity and drops the gun and turns himself in, proving the Joker wrong ultimately and restoring order (if not hope) to Gotham City. Or Dent ignores it and tries to kill the child anyway and the ending proceeds as it does, just more dramatically. Albeit, then the writers are screwed if Gordon knows who Batman is for the sequel (plus the mystique of TDK's ending would be lost). So, ultimately it was a good idea to avoid that all together.

Just saying, based on the characters in the movie--they have a point, this Batman probably would have unmasked himself. It was merely a fedelity to the comics that prevented him from doing so. Could have been interesting though.

 

[Jokey]

I think it's theatrical, but I think the film has earned that by that point. I daresay the final moments with Batman being hunted and Gordon's grandiose speech is my favorite bit out of the entire film.

 

[DevSingh1359]

Yeah, It wasn't so much the fight with Ras that I enjoyed, it was just the sense of chaos the scene had. The entire city was going insane, the train was going 100MPH, unable to stop, ready to destroy the city, and Gordon was frantically racing to stop the train.

And that shot of Batman blowing part of the train up and flying out..
awesome. Sheer awesome.

I agree with you 100%. In fact, I'm probably one of the few who actually enjoyed the BB finale more than TDK. The music, Batman trying to stop the speeding train while Gordon was trying to keep up, and the chaos of everything going on in the background...everything about it was perfect in my opinion. I was hoping Nolan would go for that same intense, edgy race-against-the-clock climax that BB had...but anyway, TDK finale was still good and I still ended up clinging to the edge of my seat during the finale...and overall, I still enjoyed TDK more than BB.

 

[Two-Face]

I liked BB ending but TDK ending was better, it fired me up for Batman 3.

 

[Sonic1002]

I think it's theatrical, but I think the film has earned that by that point. I daresay the final moments with Batman being hunted and Gordon's grandiose speech is my favorite bit out of the entire film.

IT gives me chills and goosebumps every single time I watch it