The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[CJ]

HarryGucha has been talking about it repeatedly in every thread. The DVD/BluRay thread started to get a bit off-topic becuase of it, so I decided to make this thread for the discussion of the end of the film.

What's your opinon of it? Was it a disappointment? Did it suspend your disbelief too much? Did it feel incomplete? Or did it blow you away?

I personally considered TDK to be a fantastic film. The Bats/Joker fight at the end was badly filmed, (it was so darkly lit in the scene that it was difficult to tell what was going on) but I still loved the scene, especially Bats response to Joker's scar question "No.. but I know how you got THESE!" (Shouldn't Joekr have died from those blades? They struck him right in the throat, and earlier in the film, the same blades were able to pierce SOLID STEEL when Bruce accidentally set them off. Eh.)

I personally thought the sonar thing was kinda cool, but given how quickly time seemed to pass, I didn't even realize we were at the end of the movie, until the SWAT team moved in on the hostages, and the music from the train scene in Batman Begins reprised.

Given the giant finale of Batman Begins, and all the mayhem Joker caused in TDK, I was expecting a really phenomenal, final battle between Joker and Bats, and was sadly disappointed in that regard.
The fight with Ra's on the train was one of my favorite action sequences in a movie. When I left the theater, I had this feeling of complete "WOW."

However, the Bats/Joker fight was very 'meh'. It was ok, but not nearly as spectacular as I was expecting and did not match up at all to the finale of Batman Begins, which not only gave the viewer a really big action sequence, but also had an epilogue which made the story come full-circle while still paving the way for a sequel. TDK did not do this. nothing really came 'full-circle' except for the scene between Bat/Dent/Gordon which brought the alliance between the trio to an end. Joker's left hanging, there was never a funeral for Rachel, the whole ending seemed like sequel fodder quickly cut together "Batman's a villain now! We're gonna hunt him! THE END!"

I know Joker was intended to be a "force of nature" like Anton in No Country for Old Men, with no past or origin, he just "shows up and creates chaos" but he's still human. I would've like to have seen a shot of Joker (minus the makeup) sitting in a padded cell during Batman and Gordon's speech at the end. It would've given the film a sense of closure (Yes, the Joker is defeated so Gotham is safe... for now) I think it also would have been a good scene in the psychological sense. I like to think that Joker without the makeup isn't really the Joker. He's just a nutjob. So by being in a cell without the makeup, the viewer would be left with the feeling that Joker isn't around anymore. He's in a cell, but without the makeup and stuff, he's not really "there" Joker feels powerful with the makeup, allowing him to create chaos and anarchy. But without it, I like to think Joker's "not there" he's broken down, a pathetic shell of a man sitting in a cell. "just a freak" as he puts it.

We didn't see anything from the Joker after Batman left him for the SWAT Team, and given that the ENTIRE MOVIE was all about the Joker, not giving his story a real "conclusion" (for this particular installment) was a very poor decision. Yeah yeah, he's "a force of nature" blah blah, that doesn't mean you shouldn't give his story a proper end. That's just lazy.

Nolan claims that the relationship between Dent and Batman was the heart of the story, but given how much screentime Joker had, how the movie was ALL ABOUT catching the Joker and his rise to power, i'd say his story arc is much more important to give a proper close to rather than The relationship with Batman and Harvey Dent.

I dont hate the ending to the film, I just feel very mixed. There's elements about it I like, but then there's stuff that's bothersome about it. I felt the ending needed something more.

 

[The Chris]

Honestly the finale gets better each time for me. The stuff on the boat gets more tense and nerving because of the question I always ask myself, would I or Not? Seeing Batman with Lenses was beautiful, and I think Nolan directs the finale even better than he did in Begins. The cuts, the camera movements, the tension, viewpoint of the fight scene. You can say in some level it's smaller than Begins' finale, but in a few ways it's so much more, and in the end I think Batman, Dent, and Gordon's arcs are more important to close in the very end. Because they're the ones with the developed character, they're the ones with more screentime. Plus, it's just awesome.

 

[Saint]

The abandoned building fight was better than the Begins climax. I loved the brief fight with the four ninjas, but the fight between Batman and Ra's was never up to snuff. A cramped, incoherent, barely visible brawl where nothing interesting really happens. They just wail on each other. Meh.

The fight with the SWATs, though, was very well done. Intelligently designed. In addition to simply superior fighting, we saw some inventive pieces, like Batman harpooning an officer with the grapple gun to use him as an anchor, or the way he entangled and incapacitated the officers who tried to arrest him. Ah, and when he dropped a section of the floor above him. Good stuff.

 

[namtaB]

The actual ending with Dent was perfect. Its the final battle that I have problems with. First the ferry sequence was dragged out too long and the whole "when the chips are down these civilized people will actually be altruistic and show compassion for their fellow man including a hardened criminal who refuses to detonate the other boat" statement was too in your face. Ok, we get it. There is hope for humanity as unrealistic as it was portrayed. Call me cynical but I think in real life one of those boats would have blown up.

Then there was the whole SWAT/hostages/doctors fight in Trump Tower. It was poorly shot, poorly edited, and very confusing as to who is targeting whom, who is doing what, and who the bad guys were. Its an isolated incident in an otherwise perfectly directed film. Which makes me think that Chris Nolan just can't do final battles. Where he usually balances complexity well he just can't do it in a final action sequence. Twice now in Batman Begins and Dark Knight I've been disappointed with the battle b/w Batman and the major villain.

 

[CJ]

The abandoned building fight was better than the Begins climax. I loved the brief fight with the four ninjas, but the fight between Batman and Ra's was never up to snuff. A cramped, incoherent, barely visible brawl where nothing interesting really happens. They just wail on each other.

Yeah, It wasn't so much the fight with Ras that I enjoyed, it was just the sense of chaos the scene had. The entire city was going insane, the train was going 100MPH, unable to stop, ready to destroy the city, and Gordon was frantically racing to stop the train.

And that shot of Batman blowing part of the train up and flying out..
awesome. Sheer awesome.

 

[metalhead_dave]

HarryGucha has been talking about it repeatedly in every thread.

Harrygucha is a whiner and a killjoy... he's stated and overexaggerated his problems with the film over a thousand times and when you respond... he just complains again in an even more annoying manner.

What's your opinon of it? Was it a disappointment? Did it suspend your disbelief too much? Did it feel incomplete? Or did it blow you away?

At first, I felt the Sonar was a little too much in a film that's supposed to be a "Crime Drama." But thinking about it, it's not out of place when you are dealing with a guy who beats armed criminals to a pulp with his bare hands... where in the real world, even with all his training and gadgets he'd probably get killed. I wish there was a little more in the movie about the Sonar's development.

As far as the real ending is concerned... with Bat's taking the fall... THAT blew me away. Greatest movie ending ever.

We didn't see anything from the Joker after Batman left him for the SWAT Team, and given that the ENTIRE MOVIE was all about the Joker, not giving his story a real "conclusion" (for this particular installment) was a very poor decision yeah yeah, he's "a force of nature" blah blah that doesn't mean you shouldn't give his story a proper end. That's just lazy.

Nolan claims that Dent/Batman was the heart of the story, but given how much screentime Joker had, how the movie was ALL ABOUT catching the Joker and his rise to power, i'd say his story arc is more important to give a proper close to rather than Batman and Dent's.

No... it WASN'T all about the Joker. Catching him was a main part of the story, but so was killing Jaws in Jaws. None of the scenes he was in were in his perspective(except for maybe the Bank robbery scene), just the people around him... Batman, Dent, Gordon. Every time he was on screen, except for two times, he ended up killing somebody. His story arc existed to fuel Batman/Dent/Gordon's arc.

 

[Saint]

Yeah, It wasn't so much the fight with Ras that I enjoyed, it was just the sense of chaos the scene had. The entire city was going insane, the train was going 100MPH, unable to stop, ready to destroy the city, and Gordon was frantically racing to stop the train.

Personally, I found the state the city was in at the end of TDK to be a little more interesting. It was a smaller threat, but there was much greater emphasis on the ideological ramifications, that being more my speed.

But that shot of Batman blowing part of the train up and flying out..
awesome. Sheer awesome.

Agreed. My only problem with the Begins finale was the confrontation between Bruce and Ra's.

 

[metalhead_dave]

Then there was the whole SWAT/hostages/doctors fight in Trump Tower. It was poorly shot, poorly edited, and very confusing as to who is targeting whom, who is doing what, and who the bad guys were. Its an isolated incident in an otherwise perfectly directed film. Which makes me think that Chris Nolan just can't do final battles. Where he usually balances complexity well he just can't do it in a final action sequence. Twice now in Batman Begins and Dark Knight I've been disappointed with the battle b/w Batman and the major villain.

Excuse me? I don't mean to be rude but you need to get your eyes checked. I know I can EASILY see what's going on, who's asses Batman is kicking, and I don't think I'm alone.

I personally LOVE the final action sequences for HOW it was shot. Instead of the quick cuts I normally see, Nolan had the 360 rotating camera at mid zoom while Batman was wailing on someone.

 

[namtaB]

Excuse me? I don't mean to be rude but you need to get your eyes checked. I know I can EASILY see what's going on, who's asses Batman is kicking, and I don't think I'm alone.

I personally LOVE the final action sequences for HOW it was shot. Instead of the quick cuts I normally see, Nolan had the 360 rotating camera at mid zoom while Batman was wailing on someone.

Are the insults really necessary? I have criticisms of the film. Its not perfect. DEAL.

 

[metalhead_dave]

Are the insults really necessary? I have criticisms of the film. Its not perfect. DEAL.

I didn't mean to offend. My bad.

I just don't understand how people can say they don't know what's going on when I perfectly do and the shots seem so clear. Yes Batman vs Joker was a jumbled "Insomnia" like struggle of a fight fight but when Batman was beating up the Swat and the Fake doctors it was very VERY easy to see what was going on.

 

[In a Pickle]

The "final fight" with Joker was great, but it's the denouement that I found to be completely spectacular, with Batman on the run and Gordon's monologue.

 

[Doctor Jones]

HarryGucha has been talking about it repeatedly in every thread. The DVD/BluRay thread started to get a bit off-topic becuase of it, so I decided to make this thread for the discussion of the end of the film.

What's your opinon of it? Was it a disappointment? Did it suspend your disbelief too much? Did it feel incomplete? Or did it blow you away?

I personally considered TDK to be a fantastic film. The Bats/Joker fight at the end was badly filmed, (it was so darkly lit in thr scene that it was difficult to tell what was going on) but I still loved the scene, especially Bats response to Joker. "You know how I got these scars?" "No.. but I know how you got THESE!"

I personally thought the sonar thing was kinda cool, but given how quickly time seemed to pass, I didn't even realize we were at the final fight scene until the SWAT team moved in on the hostages, and the music from the Trainfight in Begins reprised.

Given the explosive finale of Begins, and all the mayhem Joker caused in TDK, I was expecting a really phenomenal, mindblowing final battle between Joker and Bats, and was sadly disappointed in that regard.
The Ras fight was AWESOME and when I left the theater, I had this feeling of complete "WOW."

The Bats/Joker fight was very ho-hum. It was ok, but not nearly as spectcular as I was expecting and did not match up at all to the finale of Begins, which not only gave the viewer a really big action sequence, but also had an epilogue which made the story come full-circle while still paving the way for a sequel. TDK did not do this. nothing really came
'full-circle' except for the scene between Bat/Dent/Gordon which brought the alliance between the two to an end. Joker's left hanging, there was never a funeral for Rachel, the whole ending seemed like sequel fodder "Batman's a villain now! We're gonna hunt him! THE END!"

I know Joker was intended to be a "force of nature" but he's still human. I would've like to have seen a shot of Joker (minus the makeup) sitting in a padded cell during Batman and Gordon's speech at the end. It would've given the film a sense of closure (Yes, the Joker is defeated so Gotham is safe... for now) I think it also would been psychologically a good scene. I like to think that Joker without the makeup isn't really the Joker. He's just a nutjob. So by being in a cell without the makeup, the viewer would be left with the feeling that Joker isnt around anymore. He's in a cell, but without the makeup and stuff, he's not really "there" he's broken down from the terrorist clown that destroyed Gotham and would just be a pathetic shell of a man with severe mental issues sitting in a cell.

We didn't see anything from the Joker after Batman left him for the SWAT Team, and given that the ENTIRE MOVIE was all about the Joker, not giving his story a real "conclusion" (for this particular installment) was a very poor decision yeah yeah, he's "a force of nature" blah blah that doesn't mean you shouldn't give his story a proper end. That's just lazy.

Nolan claims that Dent/Batman was the heart of the story, but given how much screentime Joker had, how the movie was ALL ABOUT catching the Joker and his rise to power, i'd say his story arc is more important to give a proper close to rather than Batman and Dent's.

I dont hate the ending to the film, I just feel very mixed. There's elemnts about it I like, but then there's stuff that's bothersome about it.

This is where you're wrong, sir. TDK wasn't about The Joker. You just think that because of the hype surrounding him and him scene stealing. Nolan was right. The heart of the film is Dent, Batman, and Gordon.

That's why the three are in the finale. The Joker isn't. I loved how it didn't end that way with The Joker. It all came down to a man broken BY The Joker's reign of terror and the impact of it. The Joker in a sense was there, but his morals carried to Dent, leading to his downfall.

The conclusion of the Joker, was excellent. Like Anton is No Country for Old Menm he goes out without real explanation. Just like he came in.

Your disapointement with the end is only feuled by The Joker and his character. You're not seing the big picture. The whole film was about those three men. All effected by The Joker in different but in the same ways. They come together form the Joker's riegn of chaos. Dent comes to terms with himself, possibly knowing he will die, wanting to kill the people who he thought was responsible for Rachel's death. Batman was there to save Gordon and try to bring back Dent, even though it was inevitbale. Gordon went to save his family, but all at the same time, it's about these three men coming together and trying to come to terms.

 

[CJ]

Dent comes to terms with himself, possibly knowing he will die, wanting to kill the people who he thought was responsible for Rachel's death.

And yet when Joker points a gun to his own face, with Harvey's finger on the trigger, he refuses to kill him, but instead decides to murder innocent people, all becuase of "chance"

 

[Franklin Richards]

And what about his "Sophie's Choice" with Gordon's kid.


Not cool.

 

[batman11]

And yet when Joker points a gun to his own face, with Harvey's finger on the trigger, he refuses to kill him, but instead decides to murder innocent people, all becuase of "chance"

Innocent people? Maroni and Wertz were innocent? I need to see this movie again.

 

[JaD]

Can a mod please insert "All Harrygucha Posts Go In Here" in the title for the thread, it'd go alot smoother I think.

Now we need a "Important TDK Question" thread for ___101.

 

[batman11]

Now we need a "Important TDK Question" thread for ___101.

YEAH. WE REALLY NEED THAT.

 

[NickyTea]

I feel like the ending, or more specifically, the elements of the ending in question here, fit the movie like a glove.

If you were, however, watching the movie up to that point under the illusion it was something it wasn't, then of course you think it's incongruous.

Take the movie as it is, analyze the film and not your perception of it. There IS a flow, there IS a rhythm. It's all justified, set up, and effectively payed off.

 

[Rasputin911]

This is where you're wrong, sir. TDK wasn't about The Joker. You just think that because of the hype surrounding him and him scene stealing. Nolan was right. The heart of the film is Dent, Batman, and Gordon.



The conclusion of the Joker, was excellent. Like Anton is No Country for Old Menm he goes out without real explanation. Just like he came in.

I'm glad you brough up Chigurh. He and Heath's Joker have a lot of similarities, once you get past that their personalities are so different

-They are both a "new breed" of criminal that the law can't keep up with
-They both turn on their "masters"
-They have principles/ideologies that transcend money
-they are consumed by their "mission"
-they are both iconic bad guys

But Chigurh isn't the focus of No Country, just like Joker isn't in TDK. No Country is about the Sherrif, and TDK's arc really belongs to Dent

(sorry to rant, i just think these guys are the greatest cinema villains ever - see my sig)

 

[NickyTea]

I'm glad you brough up Chigurh. He and Heath's Joker have a lot of similarities, once you get past that their personalities are so different

-They are both a "new breed" of criminal that the law can't keep up with
-They both turn on their "masters"
-They have principles/ideologies that transcend money
-they are consumed by their "mission"
-they are both iconic bad guys

But Chigurh isn't the focus of No Country, just like Joker isn't in TDK. No Country is about the Sherrif, and TDK's arc really belongs to Dent

(sorry to rant, i just think these guys are the greatest cinema villains ever - see my sig)

Chigurh is excellent, but I think he is a bigger parallel to Two-Face.

They both use the symbol of a coin to represent a morbid dedication to deterministic causality.

Both of which, are forced to face the reality and incompatibility of these concepts in human interaction. (much like Smith in the final Matrix film.)

 

[Solidus]

Truly this is one of the few films, I have seen, that more and more I see it, I just love it more and more. I have seen the films multiple times, and it just continues to get better, and deeper with each viewing.

As for some of the complaints about the ending, I think people missed the point. It was not showing that people are altruistic, far from it, yet what it was showing not everyone is evil at heart like the Joker believes them to be. I mean it was one prisoner that did an altruistic act, not all of them. As the prisoner said himself, "..these men will kill you...and take it anyways." And as for the other boat, its funny my Pysch 234 class we talked about that scene in TDK, which was awesome for me. And people especially normal "Joe's" do have odd reactions to extreme situations Such as the bomb on the boat. Sometimes people will freak out, and go nuts, or they truly can just lock up in shock and pure fear. As well group mentality is always consistant, and with it that "one guy" did get up and really try to break the mentality, and survive, and he almost did it, but trust me, not everyone has it in them to kill.

As we talked about in my Pysch class, some people just talk tough, but don't have what it takes, they think of the consequences when they are put in such areas of fear and unknown. So that is fine that some may not have liked it, but from a psych stand point, and realism, it seems Nolan's did do their research, this is one way that a situation can take place. Watch the History Channel, the past few weeks they have had interesting things about hostange, and situations such as these, people get very different. And just because one thinks this is not how it would go down, does not make it so. But honestly that scene was done with great depth, and insight into the human psyche, when it is touched by fear.

And as for the Sonar, I guess different strokes for different folks. I really don't see a problem with it. Sonar does exist, its not "sci-fi" like. There is such a thing. Though some seem to say it goes against whats going on, but Bat's is always about cutting edge technology, just out of some of our reach, but yet grounded enough into reality to make it believable. But it being over sci-fi like, yea, I dont' think that at all. I think it fit the movie, and man, it was really intense, the entire sequence I was at the end of my seat the entire time.

But in the end, this film I have watched it dozens of times, and just recently on Blu-Ray. It is amazing. Truly a deep powerful, very well laid out film, and I'm excited to see it possibly be nominated for "Best Picture".

And as for this Harry what ever his name is. It is so clear its Googleme, this kid's been banned, and he will be again and again. He is nothing more then a troll, and it is googleme, he acts just like him, and just tries to get under people skins, by making the most outragous claims. I just hope later on he is banned perma sooner or later.

But yea final words, usually with most movies I watch anymore the hype wears off, and its not that much of a film. This is one film that goes the other way for me. It honestly gets better and better every time. I love the film greatly.

But ya, I think people should just ignore that "googleme/harrywhatever".

 

[TheDarkKnight08]

I really don't see what the fuss is with the ending of the movie. People who wanted a massive fight between Batman and Joker need to remember that Joker was not a fighter like Ra's was. Joker did not train with ninjas in the mountains, so you can't expect him to try Batman physically in that way. No wonder the fight ended quickly. He got the upperhand cheating, and if there was a 3 minute fight of just that, it would've just looked stupid. The fight with the SWAT team, in my eyes, wasn't just the prime example of Batman's fighting skills and tactical genius shown to its full extent, but also foreshadowing the fact that Batman would rather do the right thing, than the legal thing, something he chose to do in the film's final moments. These cops were going to shoot these innocent hostages out of ignorance, and Batman, being the hero that he's always been, chose the hostages over them. That entire ending, from the moment he starts to bring them down, to his decision to take the blame for everything that has befallen Batman, was the closest we've ever gotten to the comic book Batman, IMHO. The Sonar fight was great. It showed off what an amazing strategist Batman is, and was very well shot. We were also given the white eyes every fan had always dreamed on Batman. I personally got everything I wanted out of the ending, and nothing could've been better.

 

[Rasputin911]

Chigurh is excellent, but I think he is a bigger parallel to Two-Face.

They both use the symbol of a coin to represent a morbid dedication to deterministic causality.

Both of which, are forced to face the reality and incompatibility of these concepts in human interaction. (much like Smith in the final Matrix film.)

i think the coin is pretty superficial for Chigurh though. He doesen't depend on it like Two-Face. Its incidental - he does it for amusement.

 

[CJ]

Innocent people? Maroni and Wertz were innocent? I need to see this movie again.

The old guy at the bar had nothing to do with Rachel's murder and Harvey shot him dead.

He also attempted to kill Batman by shooting him, and if the coin was on the scarred side, (And Batman had not intervened) he would've killed Gordon's son.

 

[batman11]

The old guy at the bar had nothing to do with Rachel's murder and Harvey shot him dead.

He also attempted to kill Batman by shooting him, and if the coin was on the scarred side, (And Batman had not intervened) he would've killed Gordon's son.

Old guy at the bar? I'll assume you mean Wertz. And he had nothing to do with Rachel's murder? LOL Were we watching the same film? He drove Rachel to the warehouse where...get this...she was murdered!

And you clearly didn't understand the whole point of Two-Face if you think that it was dumb for him to go after Bats and Gordon. To him, in his new warped state of mind, they were guilty. He wanted to punish them for, as well as himself, for trying to be "decent men in an indecent time." To Harvey, they were as guilty as the Joker.