Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[MaceB]

It's not about you. And you would seriously do that to someone you never met before? That's pretty messed up and I know I would push you the hell away. You do not have a right to do that to someone without their permission. Men get away with doing **** like this because "I just wanted to express my concern" and "women are just too cold." That is absolute crap. Don't ever do this, please. If you're compelled to do so, ask first.

Your desire to let someone know that they're important does not *I repeat* DOES NOT override their sense of personal space.

Hmm okay. The image my head was doing this to another man. It wouldn't be sexual. You're free to your opinion. And yeah... given the circumstances, I'd be hesitant. But it's a real shame that you are pushing for a boycott on human contact. It's a real shame that I can't reach out to a stranger.. put my hand on their heart, and say "congratulations, you're great" or "I'm so sorry this happened to you." I think the truly inappropriate thing is a society that tells me that as a man, I'm not allowed to express my sympathies... that I'm locked into hiding my feelings, because it could be considered too gentle, too caring, too intimate. Isn't that toxic masculinity? Forcing me to hide my feelings? Tears aren't bad. Touching isn't bad. I should be allowed to hold your hand or put my hand on your shoulder. If you have trouble with human contact, and you move away.. then fine. But I didn't do anything wrong. My only goal was to help and to nurture.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Hmm okay. The image my head was doing this to another man. It wouldn't be sexual. You're free to your opinion. And yeah... given the circumstances, I'd be hesitant. But it's a real shame that you are pushing for a boycott on human contact. It's a real shame that I can't reach out to a stranger.. put my hand on their heart, and say "congratulations, you're great" or "I'm so sorry this happened to you." I think the truly inappropriate thing is a society that tells me that as a man, I'm not allowed to express my sympathies... that I'm locked into hiding my feelings, because it could be considered too gentle, too caring, too intimate. Isn't that toxic masculinity? Forcing me to hide my feelings? Tears aren't bad. Touching isn't bad. I should be allowed to hold your hand or put my hand on your shoulder. If you have trouble with human contact, and you move away.. then fine. But I didn't do anything wrong. My only goal was to help and to nurture.

Which is telling. Because we are talking about women reacting to this ****.

I swear, that you keep on talking about touching people on the chest like that... the hell... Who told you you can't cry? For your sake, and especially others, learn to use your words to express yourself. Especially with strangers.

Also in these times of grieving, you seem really concerned about yourself and not the purpose grieving.

 

[MaceB]

Which is telling. Because we are talking about women reacting to this ****.

Fair. All I'm saying is that there should be ways to show platonic affection through touch. A hand on a shoulder... a hug... holding someone's hand.. these are things that friends should feel comfortable doing for one another. As a man, I was raised by an old fashioned father who who taught me to not show my emotions.. to not get too close. It's been 34 years, and I've never kissed my father. He's never told me he loves me. And it's not because he doesn't... it's because he was raised that to show those things is bad. I don't believe that's true. I welcome a hug or a kiss on the cheek or whatnot. I wish we felt more open about nurturing each other through physical contact, personally.

I can say that equally in regards to my interactions with men, and with women. And like I've said.. I think my intentions do matter.

I swear, that you keep on talking about touching people on the chest like that... the hell...

What's the problem? I'm using it as an example of human touch that can be intimate, but nonsexual, and... IMO.... innocent. Putting your hands over someone's heart and telling them that they are good is not a bad thing... it's not an indecent thing... it's not a vulgar thing; it's a caring, loving, thing.

Who told you you can't cry? For your sake, and especially others, learn to use your words to express yourself. Especially with strangers.

Well, societal pressures I suppose. Just like the societal pressures you are trying to impose that innocent touching is bad. Basically, in both situations, I'm being told that expressing my feelings is bad. I do use my words, believe me. But there are tons of people out there dying to be touched... dying to feel loved. And words work great some times.. but sometimes nothing can do more healing than a good hug. Physical touch is a hugely cathartic, healing thing. If we were to ban the opposite sexes from being able to touch each other, I think the world would be less for it.

 

[Donner]

Hmm okay. The image my head was doing this to another man. It wouldn't be sexual. You're free to your opinion. And yeah... given the circumstances, I'd be hesitant. But it's a real shame that you are pushing for a boycott on human contact. It's a real shame that I can't reach out to a stranger.. put my hand on their heart, and say "congratulations, you're great" or "I'm so sorry this happened to you." I think the truly inappropriate thing is a society that tells me that as a man, I'm not allowed to express my sympathies... that I'm locked into hiding my feelings, because it could be considered too gentle, too caring, too intimate. Isn't that toxic masculinity? Forcing me to hide my feelings? Tears aren't bad. Touching isn't bad. I should be allowed to hold your hand or put my hand on your shoulder. If you have trouble with human contact, and you move away.. then fine. But I didn't do anything wrong. My only goal was to help and to nurture.

It's. Not. About. You.

I'm not pushing for a boycott on human contact. I never said that and I won't say that. I'm talking about CONSENT. If you're meeting someone for the first time, you don't get to decide what you're allowed to do in terms of touching them. For friends and family, that's different and I would hope people can read their friends and know when a good time to hug them is.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around putting your hand on the heart of a stranger. That's not appropriate and you definitely need to ask permission for doing stuff like that. I can't believe that you stated you should be allowed to hold someone's hand or touch their shoulder.

I feel like this needs to be said, your view is quite damaging. Please, do not touch strangers without their permission. Especially women. You have no idea what the person has been through in their life and you desperately trying to prove that your intentions are good is not more important than their personal space. You really need to understand that.

It seems like what you're saying is that a person feeling uncomfortable by your touch is not as important as your intentions when touching them. You're placing the blame on the person you're touching for feeling the way that they do. That's a major problem.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Fair. All I'm saying is that there should be ways to show platonic affection through touch. A hand on a shoulder... a hug... holding someone's hand.. these are things that friends should feel comfortable doing for one another. As a man, I was raised by an old fashioned father who who taught me to not show my emotions.. to not get too close. It's been 34 years, and I've never kissed my father. He's never told me he loves me. And it's not because he doesn't... it's because he was raised that to show those things is bad. I don't believe that's true. I welcome a hug or a kiss on the cheek or whatnot. I wish we felt more open about nurturing each other through physical contact, personally.

I can say that equally in regards to my interactions with men, and with women. And like I've said.. I think my intentions do matter.

There are. Kissing someone, smelling their hair, a hug to a stranger are not among them. I wish people would understand boundaries.

Your concern with the intention talk so completely cuts the person who has to deal with these kind of things out of the scenario, it is scary.

What's the problem? I'm using it as an example of human touch that can be intimate, but nonsexual, and... IMO.... innocent. Putting your hands over someone's heart and telling them that they are good is not a bad thing... it's not an indecent thing... it's not a vulgar thing; it's a caring, loving, thing.

It is very vulgar, because you see, we are made of flesh, if you did that to the vast majority of human beings who did not know you from Adam, there would be a fight and you would be getting arrested. Especially if you as a man, did it to a woman.

Well, societal pressures I suppose. Just like the societal pressures you are trying to impose that innocent touching is bad. Basically, in both situations, I'm being told that expressing my feelings is bad. I do use my words, believe me. But there are tons of people out there dying to be touched... dying to feel loved. And words work great some times.. but sometimes nothing can do more healing than a good hug. Physical touch is a hugely cathartic, healing thing. If we were to ban the opposite sexes from being able to touch each other, I think the world would be less for it.

I like the idea of society eradicating this really gross ****.

And let me be clear, there are plenty of situations where expressing your feelings are not only bad, it is considered illegal.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's. Not. About. You.

I'm not pushing for a boycott on human contact. I never said that and I won't say that. I'm talking about CONSENT. If you're meeting someone for the first time, you don't get to decide what you're allowed to do in terms of touching them. For friends and family, that's different and I would hope people can read their friends and know when a good time to hug them is.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around putting your hand on the heart of a stranger. That's not appropriate and you definitely need to ask permission for doing stuff like that. I can't believe that you stated you should be allowed to hold someone's hand or touch their shoulder.

I feel like this needs to be said, your view is quite damaging. Please, do not touch strangers without their permission. Especially women. You have no idea what the person has been through in their life and you desperately trying to prove that your intentions are good is not more important than their personal space. You really need to understand that.

It seems like what you're saying is that a person feeling uncomfortable by your touch is not as important as your intentions when touching them. You're placing the blame on the person you're touching for feeling the way that they do. That's a major problem.

A hug loses all effect if you ask for permission.

One of the reasons handshakes are considered the way to go, is it's basically an agreement the vast majority of the time. Someone presents their hand, you take it.

 

[Snow Queen]

Fair. All I'm saying is that there should be ways to show platonic affection through touch. A hand on a shoulder... a hug... holding someone's hand.. these are things that friends should feel comfortable doing for one another. As a man, I was raised by an old fashioned father who who taught me to not show my emotions.. to not get too close. It's been 34 years, and I've never kissed my father. He's never told me he loves me. And it's not because he doesn't... it's because he was raised that to show those things is bad. I don't believe that's true. I welcome a hug or a kiss on the cheek or whatnot. I wish we felt more open about nurturing each other through physical contact, personally.

I can say that equally in regards to my interactions with men, and with women. And like I've said.. I think my intentions do matter.



What's the problem? I'm using it as an example of human touch that can be intimate, but nonsexual, and... IMO.... innocent. Putting your hands over someone's heart and telling them that they are good is not a bad thing... it's not an indecent thing... it's not a vulgar thing; it's a caring, loving, thing.



Well, societal pressures I suppose. Just like the societal pressures you are trying to impose that innocent touching is bad. Basically, in both situations, I'm being told that expressing my feelings is bad. I do use my words, believe me. But there are tons of people out there dying to be touched... dying to feel loved. And words work great some times.. but sometimes nothing can do more healing than a good hug. Physical touch is a hugely cathartic, healing thing. If we were to ban the opposite sexes from being able to touch each other, I think the world would be less for it.

There's a key word there: friends. People who you know and understand the boundaries of. Unless Joe Biden was personal friends with the pre-teens and knew they were okay with him smelling their hair, not really the same thing.

 

[MaceB]

It's. Not. About. You.

I'm not pushing for a boycott on human contact. I never said that and I won't say that. I'm talking about CONSENT. If you're meeting someone for the first time, you don't get to decide what you're allowed to do in terms of touching them. For friends and family, that's different and I would hope people can read their friends and know when a good time to hug them is.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around putting your hand on the heart of a stranger. That's not appropriate and you definitely need to ask permission for doing stuff like that. I can't believe that you stated you should be allowed to hold someone's hand or touch their shoulder.

Have you never been to a funeral? I can't hold someone's hand and say, "I knew John. I'm so sorry." I can't find the birthday girl after presents and say, "I'm so glad to have met you! Congratulations!" and give her a hug? Okay...

There are times where I do ask for permission. Of course. But you know.. context is key.

The hand over the heart thing.... imagine that it's the end of a long day, in which I had a deep conversation with a girl about some of her biggest fears. I got to know her after a 30 minute conversation. After meeting, we say goodbye and instead of hugging her, I put my hands together, and put my palms over her heart, and say, "I love you, and I wish for the best in your coming struggles." Would that be bad? I don't see how. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about it. I wasn't trying to hurt her. My actions were just as innocent as a hug and no more touchy-feely. You're basically trying to shame me for not following societal protocols, I guess. But if my heart is in the right place, and if I didn't bring any harm... then I have nothing to be sorry about. It's like people who say, "You're driving me crazy!." No.... you're driving yourself crazy. Your feelings are in your control. I can only do my best to live my life how I think is right.

I feel like this needs to be said, your view is quite damaging. Please, do not touch strangers without their permission. Especially women. You have no idea what the person has been through in their life and you desperately trying to prove that your intentions are good is not more important than their personal space. You really need to understand that.

You make it sound like I'm pushing for folks to walk up strangers on the streets, and start rubbing their back or something. Obviously that's not what I'm suggesting. I'd never recommend coming up to a stranger, and after moments of meeting them.. start to coddle their face. But after a single lunch, there's nothing wrong with me putting my shoulders on someone, looking into their eyes, and saying, "I'm so glad I met you. You're going to make it. If you need anything, give me a call." You're asking me to cater to other people's insecurities and feelings. I'd suggest that if someone has a problem with that degree of touching, that it most likely comes from material that they need to work through. Being insecure around successive or sexualized touching makes sense. Being insecure around a 5 second long hug following buy a double palmed hand holding is a bit of a different thing. That reflects an insecurity on the part of the receiver... not the giver.

It seems like what you're saying is that a person feeling uncomfortable by your touch is not as important as your intentions when touching them. You're placing the blame on the person you're touching for feeling the way that they do. That's a major problem.

I believe that context matters. That there are certain circumstances when touching is appropriate and certain circumstances where it's not. In general, I wish we were more open to it as a society, though I can appreciate that bad actors have poisoned the well for all of us. I think it's an inappropriate solution to the problem to say all unrequested physical contact should be stopped at all time. Where does it end? Who says hand shakes can't make one uncomfortable. What if it's double palmed? What if it lasts more than 10 seconds? What if it involves some thumb rubbing? Instead of banning all forms of contact with strangers, we should simply say it depends on intent and context. It's on a person by person basis... that's why we should practice caution. That's all.

You could make the argument that Biden didn't practice that acceptable amount of caution, and that's a problem. But like I've said... I just don't think it's disqualifier.

 

[Donner]

This clearly isn't getting through to you because you're making it all about yourself. And not only that, you're actually defending it as not "giving in" to other people's insecurities. That's messed up.

You want to touch people and you don't care how they feel about it. That's toxic masculinity and you're trying to paint it as breaking away from societal norms. Yikes.

Super yikes.

 

[MaceB]

Of course I care how they feel about it. I'm not making it all about myself. I'm not endorsing touching cause it makes me feel better. I'm endorsing touching because it can be a hugely healing love language. I think the more barriers you put up against allowing people to express love through touch, the more likely that people will go through life thinking that touch is bad, and the more likely some will feel disconnected. I simply reject the idea that platonic, nonsexual touching is always bad without express approval.

And even past that... my argument is that we shouldn't ignore the context. Even if I gave you that platonic, nonsexual touching is always bad without approval.. it still wouldn't be as bad as assault or harassment, and I think a lot of social justice warriors are doing their darnedest to make these things appear equally bad.

And I'm concerned about public shaming in general. I don't know if it's appropriate to pile on the guy for 2 accusations of noncriminal conduct that could largely be considered inappropriate but innocent. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the mob mentality that I see brewing underneath that.

You seem to be really interested in fighting the argument you want to fight.... which is against someone who is defending a man's ability to touch a woman whenever he wants. I'm not doing that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Have you never been to a funeral? I can't hold someone's hand and say, "I knew John. I'm so sorry." I can't find the birthday girl after presents and say, "I'm so glad to have met you! Congratulations!" and give her a hug? Okay...

There are times where I do ask for permission. Of course. But you know.. context is key.

The hand over the heart thing.... imagine that it's the end of a long day, in which I had a deep conversation with a girl about some of her biggest fears. I got to know her after a 30 minute conversation. After meeting, we say goodbye and instead of hugging her, I put my hands together, and put my palms over her heart, and say, "I love you, and I wish for the best in your coming struggles." Would that be bad? I don't see how. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about it. I wasn't trying to hurt her. My actions were just as innocent as a hug and no more touchy-feely. You're basically trying to shame me for not following societal protocols, I guess. But if my heart is in the right place, and if I didn't bring any harm... then I have nothing to be sorry about. It's like people who say, "You're driving me crazy!." No.... you're driving yourself crazy. Your feelings are in your control. I can only do my best to live my life how I think is right.

I have been to a funeral. The only people I was hugging was my family.

The amount of exposition you had to give for the creepy ass chest touching pretty much summarizes all the vast issues.

Also, again I ask, where do you think a woman's heart is exactly? Her shoulder?

You make it sound like I'm pushing for folks to walk up strangers on the streets, and start rubbing their back or something. Obviously that's not what I'm suggesting. I'd never recommend coming up to a stranger, and after moments of meeting them.. start to coddle their face. But after a single lunch, there's nothing wrong with me putting my shoulders on someone, looking into their eyes, and saying, "I'm so glad I met you. You're going to make it. If you need anything, give me a call." You're asking me to cater to other people's insecurities and feelings. I'd suggest that if someone has a problem with that degree of touching, that it most likely comes from material that they need to work through. Being insecure around successive or sexualized touching makes sense. Being insecure around a 5 second long hug following buy a double palmed hand holding is a bit of a different thing. That reflects an insecurity on the part of the receiver... not the giver.

Well, if there intentions are pure, why not?

I believe that context matters. That there are certain circumstances when touching is appropriate and certain circumstances where it's not. In general, I wish we were more open to it as a society, though I can appreciate that bad actors have poisoned the well for all of us. I think it's an inappropriate solution to the problem to say all unrequested physical contact should be stopped at all time. Where does it end? Who says hand shakes can't make one uncomfortable. What if it's double palmed? What if it lasts more than 10 seconds? What if it involves some thumb rubbing? Instead of banning all forms of contact with strangers, we should simply say it depends on intent and context. It's on a person by person basis... that's why we should practice caution. That's all.

You could make the argument that Biden didn't practice that acceptable amount of caution, and that's a problem. But like I've said... I just don't think it's disqualifier.

And you remove all context from the person you would theoretically be forcing your touch upon. Everything you write is from the perspective of doing something you want to do. Whether the other person is comfortable with it or not. And you don't seem concerned at all with finding out if the would be. Just about your ability to do what you like.

 

[MaceB]

Thanks for the healthy, spirited debate y'all. I know a losing battle when I see one... and although I want to say this is all about you not understanding what I'm saying, I'm going to ingest these arguments and think about them tonight. I think that what I said was right...and I want to stand by it... but I can also appreciate that touching a person without consent is wrong. Is there a middle ground where both things can be right, or do I have to re-evaluate? I'll let it sit for a while, and think about it tonight... I need to do something else for a while, and then come at it more fresh tonight. Thanks for bringing it to my attention in a kind, polite manner. Conversations like this are why I come to the board.

FYI - ironically, I'm one of the least handsy people you'll ever meet. I'm more of a conversation and quality time kind of guy.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Critics to Joe Biden: You’re Missing the Point

 

[Sithborg]

Here's the thing. There was room for forgiveness with Biden. Even allowances if he kept doing it.

But once he started joking about it, it threw away any credibility about him being sincere about changing. I really don't think the bar we are setting for a presidential candidate is too high. I mean, Bernie apologized for some of the stuff that happened with his campaign staffers.

 

[Aximili86]

Here's the thing. There was room for forgiveness with Biden. Even allowances if he kept doing it.

But once he started joking about it, it threw away any credibility about him being sincere about changing.

Oh, bull****.

I think his behavior with women captured in the photos & videos is sketchy and a legitimate issue to bring up too (and did in 2012, where were you people then?), but let's get real. He was done & dusted in the eyes of anyone like you way before he made a jovial crack about it. No apology he could have made a week ago would have been enough, because that's not the point here. A guy like Biden makes some huge-deal rambling "I'm a sucky person" apology over something like this and he's just going to have it thrown back in his face and be denounced as tip of the toxic-masculinity spear all the same.

Biden's in the wrong with the behavior. He's also been pretty contrite about it and humored all the "raah rabble rabble rabble you're basically Weinstein!" irrational hysteria more than he probably should have.

Regarding he joke itself, it was pretty friggin' mild and you can tell the (assumedly Democratic) audience in attendance took it for what it was. Again, it's the salivating rabid college kid types that'll crucify him here, their Dem-voter parents have a little perspective and can compartmentalize "it's a problem, it's bad behavior, but also not something the guy polling #1 among Democrats should lose his entire shot here over." He so will, though, militants run the show now in both parties, guys like Biden's days are done.

Which, again, from your perspective is kind of the point.

This is basically the exact same type of mentality as the Republicans were pushing with the "Obama took a photo with Farrakhan and attended Wright's church! That's enough, he's gotta be out!" type of ****. Yes, it's crappy behavior and it never should have occured, but in the scheme of things and considering all the other stuff he brings to the table...

Perspective.

 

[Sithborg]

Again, it was something I thought he could overcome. Until he started mocking it.

 

[Donner]

Again, it was something I thought he could overcome. Until he started mocking it.

Joking about getting a kid's consent before touching him/her is ****ing weird. And it goes to show he's just another old white guy that thinks it's everyone else's problem. It's just vile.

 

[moviedoors]

This is basically the exact same type of mentality as the Republicans were pushing with the "Obama took a photo with Farrakhan and attended Wright's church! That's enough, he's gotta be out!" type of ****. Yes, it's crappy behavior and it never should have occured, but in the scheme of things and considering all the other stuff he brings to the table...

Which is what? "I'm not Trump!' Hillary 2.0

Yeah, better clear the table.

 

[Schlosser85]

I’m not going to pretend to be outraged and up in arms, but Biden cracking jokes about it only furthers the out of touch old man image. Even flat-out ignoring it would arguably have been better than that.

Also he or at least his people had to have known this was coming (again) and seemingly haven't done much to prepare for it.

They should have had something better to say than "I got this one's permission for a hug, lulz".

 

[MaceB]

I’m not going to pretend to be outraged and up in arms, but Biden cracking jokes about it only furthers the out of touch old man image. Even flat-out ignoring it would arguably have been better than that.

Also he or at least his people had to have known this was coming (again) and seemingly haven't done much to prepare for it.

They should have had something better to say than "I got this one's permission for a hug, lulz".

He's not getting into the race on very good footing. The whole thing feels pretty haphazard and amateur to me. It remind me of Hillary - it really does, because, you're right, they knew this was coming. They had plenty of time to prepare; there's no reason to be caught off guard by this. Biden is acting like someone who is expecting us to give him the nomination.

Biden says that he wants to be thought of as an Obama/Biden Democrat. And that might be part of the problem. Obama was a great President, by most standards. But his signal weakness was an overt faith in process and patience. It was that kind of leadership that stood by and watched while a foreign enemy supported a particular candidate based on the assurance that there was no real way that he could ever win. Obama was overly cautious... overly conciliatory. And Biden is most likely similar... by his own admission. I don't think BIden's actions are really that bad.. truth be told... But they are telling. This scandal points right at the heart of the major criticism against him: he's overly dependent on social norms, he slow to make change, he's part of the old days at a time of great change. Is he the guy to lead us into the future?

 

[Sithborg]

Obama did want to come out and warn people.

But Mitch McConnell scared him off.

 

[MaceB]

For me, the fact that Obama sat by and let that go down will be one of the few remaining, but glaring negatives of his Presidency. There are times where boldness is needed. If McConnell threatens to make it a political issue, then fine.. let's make it one. Obama always seemed scared of the perception of things. Like.. he didn't want folks to think he was tipping the scales in the election... but in his efforts to be cautious and by the book, he allowed some shady stuff to go down. And that right there is a microcosm of his Presidency. He always did everything with great care and patience and good intention. He was always cautious and attentive to the secondary effects of his actions. Sometimes, too much so.

 

[CaptainWagner]

No one is suggesting that Biden's poor understanding of personal space alone should be disqualifying. The big problem is how he responded and continues to respond to this issue. As others have noted, some of these comments are downright Trumpian. It's clear he doesn't care and it is escalating the image of an out of touch old man that was already haunting him. Stuff like Anita Hill and the fact that, last time I checked, he still calls marijuana a "gateway drug" is all part of a really problematic narrative.

 

[DeadPresident]

What on earth does his stance on weed have to do with anything...?

 

[Sithborg]

What on earth does his stance on weed have to do with anything...?

It is quickly becoming popular among states to legalize it. It would be nice to have a President who encourages it. Or even one to encourage it being reclassified.