Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[Donner]

No one blames all the tornadoes or hurricanes on climate change. The issue is the amount and ferocity are going up. The ice caps are melting in front of our eyes. Sea levels are rising. The oceans are heating up. Wildfire season is basically year around in California at this point. There is an immediacy that is being ignored because it is Fury Road yet. The truth is we are already seeing effects, and there is damage being done now that needs to be stopped to lessen the impact in the future.

Also the right is ****ing horrible on the topic, ranging from straight up lying to simply ignoring it.

And the idiot in the White House wants to bring coal back while everyone else is trying to phase it out. People like Trump need to die off.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All of that stuff is legitimately happening, yes. Thing is, that's not news to anyone bar the hardcore, the majority of the country according to polling buys the science.

They just calculate that there's a good-for-business component here in pushing it as doomsday, and can smell the horse**** when it's overreached on. In conjunction with not being the dummies you make them out to be in terms of being able to grasp that this is a process, you don't just flick a switch and outlaw a pretty significant segment of the economy overnight in order to meet an emissions goal.

It'll be a couple decades yet. Get Musk to find a way to get an actually-attractive-to-consumers everyman electric car under 30 grand that doesn't catch on fire, people'll get on the bandwagon. Start exploring nuclear options, you'll accelerate getting off the coal. Show the public you're actually of good faith by not denouncing pipelines on ideological grounds in the meantime, given they're cleaner than not having the pipeline in the first place and using hundreds of gas-guzzling bigrigs as we do now.

As it stands, the Gore model is being used, and the Gore model's basically more worthless than he is. People don't buy the snake oil. But if you take a step back, take the science as-is, don't just dismiss these same climatologists when they suggest nuclear as a viable safe alternative for the power grid, people by-and-large will hear you out.

The right votes for people who not only ignore it, but make things worse.

 

[Schlosser85]

And the idiot in the White House wants to bring coal back while everyone else is trying to phase it out. People like Trump need to die off.

He’s making empty promises to gullible people that they’ll be able to keep their livelihoods mining coal.

 

[MaceB]

That's the point though, we don't have to in 12 years. According to the report these people are citing.

As I understand it, we have a dozen years to change things, if we want to cap global temperature increases at 1.5 degree Celsius. If we don’t do that, temperatures could rise as high as 2 degrees Celsius before the end of the century... at which point, you’re talking seriously devastating effects to the corral reef, much faster evaporation of the arctic, and increased food scarcity.

I’m sorry that we are scaring people about this. But better now than later.

 

[Aximili86]

The right votes for people who not only ignore it, but make things worse.

So does the goddamn left. You expect people to jump on board without question, when the current proposals in the Green Deal here are literally "run the whole country on solar & wind".

You seriously think that doesn't delay any legitimate action on this, when anyone over 35 who's lived a little knows that's not a serious plan, reliable in a pragmatic sense and without major economic nut-kicks?

Look at the polls, the majority of the country believes climate change is a thing. The broad points of the reports are legit, the ice caps are melting, the temperature's going to rise a degree or so over a century, we have to do something in a general sense to stop going down the path we've been going down since the industrial revolution.

Great. That's a good thing. Where people differ is when the ideologues get a hold of the issue and start saying stuff like "build enough high speed rail that people will elect not to travel by plane anymore" with a straight ****ing face. The lowly peasants in that grand ol' majority of the country you people sneeringly dismiss as "flyover states" see right through how moronic a statement something like that is, and start to question the legitimacy of the rest of what they're pushing too, even when some of the rest of it is actually reasonable.

And again, the notion you're going to hypothetically do away with 90% of coal plants in the country in a mere decade or so, replacing them with anything other than nuclear, is goddamn children's talk. Get on board with exploring the modern fission as a stop-gap while throwing signficant money into finally nailing fusion, and there's a path forward here. But you're not powering a nation like the United States (or even, you know, a place with a mere 20 mil or 30 mil like Australia or Canada) on wind, solar, and lithium storage. That's not reality. Get rid of the coal eventually? bad place yes, it's an absolute necessity. But have an actual plan for what comes next that won't get you laughed out of the room by anyone who actually pays a power bill. The sad thing is, Trump's obnoxious **** with the "honey, is the wind blowing? I want to watch TV" is an overstatement, but not all that much of one. He's right on the notion that stuff's a supplement and not the main game, in terms of the grid.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The attacks on Omar are so obviously bigoted. And it seems the vast majority Democrats running for president don't care. It seems only Bernie and Warren have come out to defend her against this BS. Also where is Schumer, where is Pelosi?

 

[Sithborg]

This is what AIPAC wants.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is what AIPAC wants.

Oh, I know. I get people cry about the "purity" test, but these people just watching what is happening to her. It's all time gross. If something does happen to her...

 

[Schlosser85]

The attacks on Omar are so obviously bigoted. And it seems the vast majority Democrats running for president don't care. It seems only Bernie and Warren have come out to defend her against this BS. Also where is Schumer, where is Pelosi?

Buttigieg joined in.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

She couldn't be more disappointing:

 

[Teelie]

Really can't stand Pelosi's attitude.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I don't know who is working harder to undermine Dem chances in 2020, the media who are already turning non-stories into hit pieces on candidates like Buttigieg, or Pelosi, who still apparently has no idea what the heck is going on.

You seriously think that doesn't delay any legitimate action on this, when anyone over 35 who's lived a little knows that's not a serious plan, reliable in a pragmatic sense and without major economic nut-kicks?

Look at the polls, the majority of the country believes climate change is a thing. The broad points of the reports are legit, the ice caps are melting, the temperature's going to rise a degree or so over a century, we have to do something in a general sense to stop going down the path we've been going down since the industrial revolution.

Great. That's a good thing. Where people differ is when the ideologues get a hold of the issue and start saying stuff like "build enough high speed rail that people will elect not to travel by plane anymore" with a straight ****ing face. The lowly peasants in that grand ol' majority of the country you people sneeringly dismiss as "flyover states" see right through how moronic a statement something like that is, and start to question the legitimacy of the rest of what they're pushing too, even when some of the rest of it is actually reasonable.

This is why the "anyone who is over 35" demographic needs to chill the heck out because they've been running us into the ground for decades. Because they are by and large a pack of cynics who would rather sit on their hands than actually DO something.

The worst part about this post, as usual is that while it's true that older demographics are averse to change, in this instance you shouldn't be more wrong.The polls not only say that the people believe climate change, but they also support immediate action. You've fallen hook line and sinker for the GOP narrative which simply isn't reality. You call progressives disrespectful in respect to middle America, yet you apparently think they're a pack of selfish morons who don't care enough to change their lifestyle for the better. And that we should burn the country down to appease them.

 

[Aximili86]

They've been "running us into the ground"? Bwaha. It wasn't millennials who came up with solar panels & wind farms and lithium batteries you adore so, chief, that was the dreaded Boomers & Greatest Generationers. They're not new.

And I'm not questioning the "immediate action". I'm just saying that isn't going to be solar & wind in any version of reality, not in the large-scale powering the grid.

Electric cars are a good thing. You just get them cheap, and attractive to consumers (ie. not a Prius or a Volt, nobody wants to drive those toys), without the Tesla problems of catching on goddamn fire, and people will bite. As it stands the rich have their Teslas as a status symbol, the smug have their Priuses, and that giant big remainder of the country don't give a **** in general. They should, so let's make it a more attractive proposition through actual innovation & free-market consumer understanding.

But that doesn't solve the grid. The grid's going to have to go nuclear if you're serious about getting off coal in the next 50 years, and given nuclear's not even a part of the proposal here...

People. Don't. Take. You. Seriously. On. This.

It's that simple. Get on board with modern fission while throwing R&D cash in a major way at figuring out fusion for the long run, and people will start to. Not until.

Canada and Europe get this, with the nuclear thing.

 

[MaceB]

They've been "running us into the ground"? Bwaha. It wasn't millennials who came up with solar panels & wind farms and lithium batteries you adore so, chief, that was the dreaded Boomers & Greatest Generationers. They're not new.

And I'm not questioning the "immediate action". I'm just saying that isn't going to be solar & wind in any version of reality, not in the large-scale powering the grid.

Electric cars are a good thing. You just get them cheap, and attractive to consumers (ie. not a Prius or a Volt, nobody wants to drive those toys), without the Tesla problems of catching on goddamn fire, and people will bite. As it stands the rich have their Teslas as a status symbol, the smug have their Priuses, and that giant big remainder of the country don't give a **** in general. They should, so let's make it a more attractive proposition through actual innovation & free-market consumer understanding.

But that doesn't solve the grid. The grid's going to have to go nuclear if you're serious about getting off coal in the next 50 years, and given nuclear's not even a part of the proposal here...

People. Don't. Take. You. Seriously. On. This.

It's that simple. Get on board with modern fission while throwing R&D cash in a major way at figuring out fusion for the long run, and people will start to. Not until.

Canada and Europe get this, with the nuclear thing.

Do you have any evidence that we can't produce enough wind farms, solar farms, and ocean power to get off coal? Not that we can't do it politically... evidence that we can't do it technically. Because if you admit that we can do it technically, but not politically... then we move back to the original point, which is that baby boomers are running us into the ground by refusing to modernize.

 

[CaptainWagner]

And I'm not questioning the "immediate action". I'm just saying that isn't going to be solar & wind in any version of reality, not in the large-scale powering the grid.

Electric cars are a good thing. You just get them cheap, and attractive to consumers (ie. not a Prius or a Volt, nobody wants to drive those toys), without the Tesla problems of catching on goddamn fire, and people will bite. As it stands the rich have their Teslas as a status symbol, the smug have their Priuses, and that giant big remainder of the country don't give a **** in general. They should, so let's make it a more attractive proposition through actual innovation & free-market consumer understanding.

But that doesn't solve the grid. The grid's going to have to go nuclear if you're serious about getting off coal in the next 50 years, and given nuclear's not even a part of the proposal here...

People. Don't. Take. You. Seriously. On. This.

It's that simple. Get on board with modern fission while throwing R&D cash in a major way at figuring out fusion for the long run, and people will start to. Not until.

Canada and Europe get this, with the nuclear thing.

First off, as Mace said, do you care to share your data with us?

Second, don't claim that our argument isn't serious when your primary issue with electric car is that they are "toys" that "nobody wants to drive".

Third, you can't just say that "people will only start listening if you change to my opinion instead of your own". That's not a legitimate argument. What is your rationale that nuclear is an easier sell than natural renewables? Because I have lived in rural Mid-America my whole life. People "get" wind and solar. People profit off of wind and solar. You are not going to easily get them to trust a nuclear reactor in their backyard.

 

[childeroland]

Looks like Buttigieg might be toast.

 

[Schlosser85]

This isn’t new.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I just want to point out that I'm getting REALLY concerned about the Senate. The DNC is really dropping the ball here and allowing Trump and the Presidency to dominate attention when it's really McConnell's Senate that is the biggest threat to democracy in America. We have prime candidates like Beto, Hickenlooper and Bullock ignoring once in a decade shots to win Senate seats so that they can run long shot campaigns for POTUS instead. We're less than a year away from primary season and Arizona is the only race with a high profile challenger.

 

[Schlosser85]

I do think everyone and their mother throwing their hat into the ring for President is harmful in multiple ways.

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

 

[DeadPresident]

Looks like Buttigieg might be toast.

What confuses me about any outcries over potential 2020 candidates is that there’s a demonstrable criminal and pathological liar in the presidency right now that had far worse things released about him in the days leading up to the election.

I struggle to see how, objectively, any kind of scandal can derail a candidate the party unanimously supports at this point, at either side of the aisle. If a guy like Buttigieg doesn’t make it it won’t be because of any skeletons in his closet, it’ll be because the DNC decides he isn’t their guy.

I mean Biden has footage of him groping kids out on the Internet, why isn’t he toast? It’s because the Democrat establishment hasn’t decided so yet.

 

[Schlosser85]

If that’s the best they can do with Buttigieg, I guess he’s pretty squeaky.

But some people who wholeheartedly support a serial lying swindling adulterer who brags about groping women without consent and was banging a porn star while his wife was pregnant with his child will turn around and say a married military veteran with no known scandals is morally unfit for the presidency because he’s gay.

 

[DeadPresident]

Basically the TLDR for anyone who wants to post a “scandal” on any Democrat in the future:

It doesn’t matter what they’ve done or haven’t done. If the party decides to back a particular individual there’s no transgression too great to derail that, and if the party doesn’t back them there’s no transgression too small to bury them with.

Scandals don’t matter - internal party support is everything. The American public elected Donald Trump, if the Democrats put all their support behind Jeffrey Dahmer the public would elect him too.

 

[MaceB]

I struggle to see how, objectively, any kind of scandal can derail a candidate the party unanimously supports at this point, at either side of the aisle. If a guy like Buttigieg doesn’t make it it won’t be because of any skeletons in his closet, it’ll be because the DNC decides he isn’t their guy.

I mean Biden has footage of him groping kids out on the Internet, why isn’t he toast? It’s because the Democrat establishment hasn’t decided so yet.

Democrats and Republicans are very different voters. Republicans don't care about scandals, but as far as we can tell... Democrats still do. We play by different rules unfortunately. On the conservative side, you can sleep with porn stars, deficit spend on expensive tax cuts, hollow out the EPA, collude with a hostile foreign power to beat your opponent, and then obstruct any and all investigations. On the liberal side, you can ehhh..... kind of get away with sending government correspondence through a private server... as long as you give away thousands and thousands of pages of your all your government e-mails and do several sworn testimonies under oath, while no one is able to find a single illegal thing.... and then you know... give up the Presidency for good.

The fact that liberals equate Biden being affectionate to him getting sexual pleasure from fondling little girls... demonstrates the point. The conservative is a straight up confessed sexual predator with a history of misogyny.... nah, I guess that doesn't matter. The liberal is a family man that doesn't have enough respect for personal boundaries - disqualifier.

 

[DeadPresident]

I potentially agree with everything else, but I think you see what you want to see with Biden.

Clearly Democrats aren’t that different from Republicans where scandals are concerned because Biden is being sold as a legitimate candidate despite numerous instances of incredibly questionable behavior. “Being affectionate”...? Come now, brass tacks - this isn’t about affection, and even if it was I question the sanity of a man that isn’t capable of telling the difference between appropriate and inappropriate affection.

He’s being backed as a candidate so clearly the party thinks they can pawn him off on the public, my point stands, no scandal is too great when the party has chosen their representative.

 

[Schlosser85]

I don’t really care about the Biden thing but I do think it looks creepy.