🇺🇸 Discussion: The DEMOCRATIC P - Part 3

[MaceB]

At the risk of a cheap shot (but it really is fair and worth considering), 10 years before that there were widespread claims of global cooling, a coming Ice Age. The claims were not as widespread or as well-supported with evidence as now with global warming but still were widespread. Of course there would then be particular skepticism that carbon emissions would lead to catastrophic global warming.

Sure, but that only strengthens my point that the environment has taken one on the chin for some time now. I understand there were all kinds of political and cultural reasons why we were slow on the draw... I'm not coming at it from a shame, blame, and guilt place per say. But you are basically saying, 'hey.. let's hold up, so we don't blow up the economy while helping the environment.' My response is 'I want to help, but the environment has been soaking up carbon emissions for many decades, so how soon can we do it?' There is a great degree of urgency here.

A mild but gradually increasing carbon tax (especially if it was revenue-neutral) and, otherwise, just incentivizing clean energies would seem a very reasonable and productive policy response, not sure if it would succeed, let alone quickly enough, but anything is a risk.

Well, I think that would have been great 3 decades ago. As it is, I don't think it's enough. Honestly... sounds like the status quo, more or less. We're incentivizing clean energies now. The question is how much we are going to incentivize the dirty ones. But hey, I'll take it. When one side has been fighting tooth and nail for years to stop literally any and all efforts to regulate coal and oil... anything would be good at this point.

 

[MaceB]

Thanks for the laugh, her ideas would bankrupt our society. She proposes an investment in society but no returns on that investment. Her “like” attitude and well just tax the rich or well figure it out as solutions is asinine

Okay. Government isn't like business. There don't need to be returns. Like.... maintaining the health of all American citizens would be a return... regardless of how much financial value you can extract from it. Same for subsidized college. An educated populace is it's own return.

And hey... whatever man. Like I said before, nearly every industrialized country in the world has universal payer healthcare, so the idea that America can't do it is kinda silly.

And we should tax the rich more in this country. Wealth inequality is absolutely sky high. People have obscene, generational forms of money at this point..

Laugh it up. There's nothing crazy about her policies.

 

[Prettyricky]

Okay. Government isn't like business. There don't need to be returns. Like.... maintaining the health of all American citizens would be a return... regardless of how much financial value you can extract from it. Same for subsidized college. An educated populace is it's own return.

And hey... whatever man. Like I said before, nearly every industrialized country in the world has universal payer healthcare, so the idea that America can't do it is kinda silly.

And we should tax the rich more in this country. Wealth inequality is absolutely sky high. People have obscene, generational forms of money at this point..

Laugh it up. There's nothing crazy about her policies.

So because someone builds a fortune they shouldnt get to keep it? Most pay there taxes there required too like everyone your not gonna pay more then your required too.

So free everything and thats it? Medical care, college etc,

 

[Sithborg]

At a certain point, personal wealth is just a score. So yeah, at a certain point, they should be giving back.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Blackface is horrible 35 years ago and deserving of condemnation but it's not a crime. I wasn't happy at the quick rush to oust the VA governor or his response to their rush to oust him. Crime is the sort of thing people should lose their job over. The sad thing is it's the black lieutenant governor that's actually accused of crime. All of this being put out there at the same time as black history month. Northam can't seek another term as VA governor anyway he's term limited there to one consecutively.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, sadly, he needs to stay in power until they figure out the Fairfax situation.

 

[MaceB]

So because someone builds a fortune they shouldnt get to keep it? Most pay there taxes there required too like everyone your not gonna pay more then your required too.

So free everything and thats it? Medical care, college etc,

Well, first - no one builds a fortune on their own. That person is hiring staff that was educated by the US Government. They are running a building in which the roof is guaranteed not to fall down, thanks to the US Government. They got to work on public roads, built by the US Government. They are protected by criminal laws, drafted by the US Government.

And if you earn more than others, you use those services more than others.. and as such... you should pay higher taxes than others. It's only fair. They get to keep most of it. But if you are making millions, you only get to keep half. That should be fine, since half of 10 million dollars is still..... 5 million dollars, so they are doing well enough. I never said that folks should pay more than what they are required to. But we can raise the rate that they are required to give.

It's not technically free. Is social security free? Nope, you pay into it. Medicare? Medicaid? Not really.... it comes from taxes. Free medical care and free college could be funded in the same way. This is not new. Other countries do the same thing.

 

[2kt09]

The sad thing is it's the black lieutenant governor that's actually accused of crime. All of this being put out there at the same time as black history month.

This and the self-serving woman thing is really going to bite the Dems this coming election.

 

[Prettyricky]

Well, first - no one builds a fortune on their own. That person is hiring staff that was educated by the US Government. They are running a building in which the roof is guaranteed not to fall down, thanks to the US Government. They got to work on public roads, built by the US Government. They are protected by criminal laws, drafted by the US Government.

And if you earn more than others, you use those services more than others.. and as such... you should pay higher taxes than others. It's only fair. They get to keep most of it. But if you are making millions, you only get to keep half. That should be fine, since half of 10 million dollars is still..... 5 million dollars, so they are doing well enough. I never said that folks should pay more than what they are required to. But we can raise the rate that they are required to give.

It's not technically free. Is social security free? Nope, you pay into it. Medicare? Medicaid? Not really.... it comes from taxes. Free medical care and free college could be funded in the same way. This is not new. Other countries do the same thing.

But its not free then, the taxpayers are paying more taxes for free college and healthcare.

So if you make 10 mil or more your automatically paying more in taxes percentage wise then those who make less?

Im sorry but your argument doesnt add up, saying because you drive on roads or buildings held up by codes via the government doesnt mean you need to pay more taxes because your rich. Say I have $1000 inmy savings and you have $100 and we both use the same road to go to the same bar but when the checks due you only have to tip%18 but Im suppose to tip %30 because I have more then you do so your meal can be free?

 

[Donner]

Oh lord. You really don't get it.

The wealthy end up paying less in taxes because they know how to hide their wealth. Bezos pays lower taxes than his secretary. They fudge the system to avoid paying their fair share and then they hoard the money - the same money that they accrued usually on the backs of those working for much much less. And usually they get their breaks because they have wealthy family and friends willing to invest in them.

Stop thinking that wealth equals intelligence or hard work.

The wealthy absolutely 100% need to be taxed more. All you have to do is look in US history when the tax rate was the highest and see how infrastructure and quality of life improved. It's not rocket science.

 

[MaceB]

But its not free then, the taxpayers are paying more taxes for free college and healthcare.

So if you make 10 mil or more your automatically paying more in taxes percentage wise then those who make less?

Im sorry but your argument doesnt add up, saying because you drive on roads or buildings held up by codes via the government doesnt mean you need to pay more taxes because your rich. Say I have $1000 inmy savings and you have $100 and we both use the same road to go to the same bar but when the checks due you only have to tip%18 but Im suppose to tip %30 because I have more then you do so your meal can be free?

No one ever claimed it was free. There's no candidate that's asserting we need to give out free medical coverage without raising taxes. The money has to come from somewhere. Maybe they can move around priorities... but make no mistake.... they aren't ignoring that there has to be a source of revenue.

Sure... that's how tax brackets work. If you make $250,000 annually, you pay 4%. If you make $1.5 million, you pay 8%. That's how it is today. Same principle.

I'm saying that wealthy business owners use up more tax provided services than a middle income individual does. The point is that none of us got here alone. We all received the immeasurable benefit of being born in this awesome country... with clean drinking water, public education, public transportation, anti-discrimination laws, police services, firemen... we won the geographic lottery. And if you benefitted from those services, then it's time for you to give back as an adult. And if you make more, you should give more.. yes. That's the way it is today. That's the way it is for every modern, industrial country I think.

Because the other ways is bonkersville. Are you suggesting that it doesn't matter what we make, we should all have to pay a flat tax rate? Like... regardless if you make $30,000 annually, or $300,000.... everyone pays 15% ? You know who that hurts? The poor. Why should a lower income single mother of 2 have to pay 15% when it means putting food on the table, while the wealthy millionaire can give away 15% like it's nothing... and still have enough to live on... and his kids to live on.... and his great great great grandkids to live on.. all for doing nothing. Just enjoying that sweet passive income...

That person should pay a higher percentage. They are using more of the services. They should want to give back, to give others the same chance that was afforded to them.

 

[2kt09]

Stop thinking that wealth equals intelligence or hard work.

Does this mean if you worked your way to the top, you don't have to give back 70+% of your earnings?

 

[Donner]

Does this mean if you worked your way to the top, you don't have to give back 70+% of your earnings?

You know what a marginal tax rate is right? That 70% isn't on all of your income, just on the amount above a certain threshold.

And no, I was just making a point that people have this warped idea that billionaires can claim to be self made and everyone will believe them. Like Trump, even though he received millions from his dad. No one makes it on their own and wealthy people don't necessarily work harder than anyone else. They just have better opportunities. The kinds of opportunities that the majority of people don't have. Could they be hard workers? Yes of course. Are they rich purely because they work harder than anyone else? Hell no.

 

[2kt09]

You know what a marginal tax rate is right? That 70% isn't on all of your income, just on the amount above a certain threshold.

Where's the incentive in maintaining that income?

 

[MaceB]

more profit? Where's the incentive to maintain income when it isn't taxed?

 

[Donner]

Where's the incentive in maintaining that income?

...

What? Are you actually saying that people who make more than $10 million a year will take a pay cut to be below that threshold? No no, they'll just hide their money in the Caymans like every other tax evading dbag.

This marginal tax rate existed before and guess what? People didn't start suddenly making less money. Their wealth grew.

 

[2kt09]

more profit? Where's the incentive to maintain income when it isn't taxed?

when it isn't taxed at 70+%
and apparently politifact noted the projected estimate is chump change toward overall government spending

This marginal tax rate existed before and guess what? People didn't start suddenly making less money. Their wealth grew.

Isn't the gap greater? Aren't there more people? less rich pop.?

 

[Donner]

Cut the damn defense fund. That's the biggest waste of government spending.

 

[MaceB]

There has been lots of research at this point that higher taxes don't demotivate business. It's actually the opposite. If you give people a huge tax windfall.... their quarterly earnings are up, and they are disincentivized to work really hard to earn more.

And yeah... if you are literally a billionaire, you don't need that amount of money. I'm sorry. If you have a bunch of F-you money lying around, I'd think you'd want to give a lot of it away to help the people and the places where you live. The degree of wealth inequality and obscene degree of money at the very top is just too obscene at this point.

 

[Sithborg]

Where's the incentive in maintaining that income?

Because at those levels, it is more about score keeping than anything else.

 

[2kt09]

Cut the damn defense fund. That's the biggest waste of government spending.

or how about allocate that to what you guys want? because the rich's 70+% taxable billions is way less than this:

In its budget, the government expected to spend $4.407 trillion. Most of this, about 62 percent of expenditure, pays for mandated benefits such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Interest on the U.S. debt is $363 billion. The U.S. Treasury must pay it to avoid a U.S. debt default. Interest on the approximately $21 trillion debt is already the fastest growing federal expense.

 

[Donner]

Why do you care so much about millionaires and billionaires keeping so much of their money? You're not one of them. You'll never be one of them. These guys make it their life's work to hoard as much wealth as possible and change the political landscape to suit their interests. Read Dark Money if you don't believe me.

They should absolutely be taxed more, if not for paying off the US debt (is that the issue here? The government doesn't spend the money wisely enough so why should the wealthy pay taxes), then for equalizing the income gap. Bezos makes millions every day and his workers live off of food stamps.

 

[2kt09]

Why do you care so much about millionaires and billionaires keeping so much of their money?

If it's not going to make a dent in the cause, we're throwing more money to an evergrowing bonfire.
It's like, at least, we don't live in those nations that went bankrupt. It's never going to happen to the US... :/

 

[MaceB]

If it's not going to make a dent in the cause, we're throwing more money to an evergrowing bonfire.
It's like, at least, we don't live in those nations that went bankrupt. It's never going to happen to the US... :/

A higher marginal tax rate and taxing capital gains could very easily make a dent.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If it's not going to make a dent in the cause, we're throwing more money to an evergrowing bonfire.
It's like, at least, we don't live in those nations that went bankrupt. It's never going to happen to the US... :/

Explain how the taxation regime from essentially the entirety of the 1950's to the 1980's didn't end up destroying the nation, society, world capitalism or end up with the U.S. being some mirror of Stalinist Russia?