Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[dnno1]

He's bump firing the rifle and letting the recoil of the rifle perform the action of the trigger. I've done it with my rifles by looping a rubber band around the mag well and the trigger. I've also done it by looping my fingers around my belt loop. We had this discussion one this a while back.
the rifle is still semi automatic because the trigger is still being pulled for every round being fired. it's just doing it a lot faster. I personally, think it's a waste of ammo.
You can also put a small machined piece of steel over the sear and it will make the rifle be a true automatic.
As for what I own and what I have shot, I don't need to prove anything to you. You can believe what you want about me. I have a very strong opinion of you and your narrow minded way of thinking.
So, now I will put you on ignore because you annoy me.

Whatever you want to call it, it's allowing him to rapid fire rounds almost as fast as a full-auto. I will tell you this, though, If you were to limit the number of rounds in a magazine to 5-10 rounds, it would not matter so much if he could do that. The real issue is the LCM that he has on his rifle.

 

[Thundercrack85]

When it comes to spree killers you kind of have to wonder, if automatic would be that much worse. With a semiautomatic, every shot requires thought (maybe not much, but you do have to pull the trigger). Automatic is less accurate, and you go through a clip real fast (like seconds).

Either way it's terrible, obviously.

 

[Hotwire]

He's bump firing the rifle and letting the recoil of the rifle perform the action of the trigger. I've done it with my rifles by looping a rubber band around the mag well and the trigger. I've also done it by looping my fingers around my belt loop. We had this discussion one this a while back.
the rifle is still semi automatic because the trigger is still being pulled for every round being fired. it's just doing it a lot faster. I personally, think it's a waste of ammo.
You can also put a small machined piece of steel over the sear and it will make the rifle be a true automatic.
As for what I own and what I have shot, I don't need to prove anything to you. You can believe what you want about me. I have a very strong opinion of you and your narrow minded way of thinking.
So, now I will put you on ignore because you annoy me.

Even though it's not "true auto", isn't this something that we really just do not need in the hands of the average civilian? Along with a rifle that could be fired this way. While automatic fire does tend to waste ammo, in closed quarters, it does provide the potential for massive casualties.

 

[Thundercrack85]

...wouldn't it be easier... and quite possibly cheaper to just show up with two semiautomatic handguns?

Why bother with rubber bands and tricks, when you can just use a handgun with an extended clip?

 

[Phallic]

Even though it's not "true auto", isn't this something that we really just do not need in the hands of the average civilian? Along with a rifle that could be fired this way. While automatic fire does tend to waste ammo, in closed quarters, it does provide the potential for massive casualties.

There has not been a single mass shooting in American history with a legal NFA automatic weapon.

There have been plenty with smuggled illegal ones though.

Another example of strict gun control at its best.

 

[Phallic]

Whatever you want to call it, it's allowing him to rapid fire rounds almost as fast as a full-auto. I will tell you this, though, If you were to limit the number of rounds in a magazine to 5-10 rounds, it would not matter so much if he could do that. The real issue is the LCM that he has on his rifle.

You aren't going to hit anything shooting like that as control of the firearm is very limited. It's only a gimmick.

A magazine capacity of 5-10 rounds is ridiculous for many guns / calibers. It's increasingly apparent you aren't familiar with firearms use in defensive situations - if you were you'd know that coupled with an average accuracy of 20% in defensive situations and an average of 2-3+ shots to stop an attacker, a 10 round magazine would leave you woefully unprepared against multiple attackers (which make up a large portion of all violent crime).

 

[dnno1]

I'm rather skeptical of that. They don't even keep track of rifle sales in most states. The FBI even admits they have no accurate estimate of how many guns are in the country.

If that's the case then how can you prove that 50% ownership is accurate. I seriously doubt that it is since that would mean that every other house in my neighborhood would have a gun and that's not true.

 

[dnno1]

You aren't going to hit anything shooting like that as control of the firearm is very limited. It's only a gimmick.

A magazine capacity of 5-10 rounds is ridiculous for many guns / calibers. It's increasingly apparent you aren't familiar with firearms use in defensive situations - if you were you'd know that coupled with an average accuracy of 20% in defensive situations and an average of 2-3+ shots to stop an attacker, a 10 round magazine would leave you woefully unprepared against multiple attackers (which make up a large portion of all violent crime).

First off, it doesn't have to be accurate if you are firing into a crowd. The probability of a hit is a lot higher that way. I don't think anyone has to be knowledgeable about firearms to know that since it is common sense. Secondly the point here is to prevent mass shootings, not self defense. Thirdly, that is not a gimmick, since it vindicates the fact that you can take a semi-automatic weapon with a large capacity magazine and cause a lot of mayhem and is why that was not allowed in the AWB. Finally, how dare you try to insult my intelligence by trying to imply that because I seem to not know about guns I am not qualified to debate about the banning or restriction of assault weapons. I don't think that anyone needs to have such experience to participate here.

 

[Kable24]

That'd be the one.

I guess it is rather impractical as a handgun.

Makes for a great rifle though. Winning the West and what not.

I see Rossi's every so often being offered on slickguns. They are really cool looking .357 carbines. I like lever actions. Something about them being old West gun slingers.

Even though it's not "true auto", isn't this something that we really just do not need in the hands of the average civilian? Along with a rifle that could be fired this way. While automatic fire does tend to waste ammo, in closed quarters, it does provide the potential for massive casualties.

Unfortunately, people will always find a trick or a hack to make things easier in life. If it can be done with some simple rubberbands, what are can you do? Have rubber bands pulled from the shelf?
People will always find a way to circumvent the law. They actually sell slidefire stocks that attach to the rifle to help create the bump firing a lot more easy and more accurate. ATF ruled that it did not alter the mechanics of the gun there for it is not against the law.

...wouldn't it be easier... and quite possibly cheaper to just show up with two semiautomatic handguns?

Why bother with rubber bands and tricks, when you can just use a handgun with an extended clip?

If you are planning on going into a public place and mowing people down, I don't think worrying about the price of your ammo and weapon of choice is an issue. You've pretty much given up on life by that point. A pistol just won't cause as much damage as a semi-automatic rifle. Plus people are more afraid of a military looking rifle than a pistol.

 

[Destructus86]

I don't know about anyone else...but I like to sleep with my rocket launcher under my pillow...

 

[dnno1]

...Unfortunately, people will always find a trick or a hack to make things easier in life. If it can be done with some simple rubberbands, what are can you do? Have rubber bands pulled from the shelf?

Nah, just ban large capacity magazines. You could use all the rubber-bands and thumbs to bump shoot all you want but the most you will get off is maybe 10 rounds before you have to reload.

People will always find a way to circumvent the law. They actually sell slidefire stocks that attach to the rifle to help create the bump firing a lot more easy and more accurate. ATF ruled that it did not alter the mechanics of the gun there for it is not against the law...

I don't have a problem with a workaround as long as there is a limit to the amount of rounds one can fire at a clip and that there is some turnaround time to reload between clips.

 

[Kelly]

Dnno1, I certainly understand where you are coming from...I have stated the same stuff, but after more research, honestly that wouldn't help...people can learn to reload in 5 seconds and being putting off another 6 to 9 rounds. You have someone that has say 2 handguns that can pull off say 9 rounds before reloading, could put off 36 rounds less than a minute. Now, is that better than 100 rounds. Definitely, but still 36 rounds.

 

[dnno1]

Dnno1, I certainly understand where you are coming from...I have stated the same stuff, but after more research, honestly that wouldn't help...people can learn to reload in 5 seconds and being putting off another 6 to 9 rounds. You have someone that has say 2 handguns that can pull off say 9 rounds before reloading, could put off 36 rounds less than a minute. Now, is that better than 100 rounds. Definitely, but still 36 rounds.

5 seconds might be enough time (I don't think it will always be that long or short though). Even 3 seconds is enough time to slow things down. If a gunman decides to go on a shooting spree (like a Jared Loughner or a Nidal Malik Hasan) it has been proven he/she can be stopped while reloading, and that is why you want that to be part of the process. You can force that event by limiting the number of rounds you can fire at a clip.

 

[Kelly]

5 seconds might be enough time (I don't think it will always be that long or short though). Even 3 seconds is enough time to slow things down. If a gunman decides to go on a shooting spree (like a Jared Loughner or a Nidal Malik Hasan) it has been proven he/she can be stopped while reloading, and that is why you want that to be part of the process. You can force that event by limiting the number of rounds you can fire at a clip.

I'm with you....all I'm saying is, if they want to kill a lot of people, they will. NOW, Newtown....better glass and door reinforcement, security person (well trained security person), hell even the Principal with a gun would/could have stopped him. He was slowed down, just as reloading would have slowed him down at the very beginning. He was slowed down enough for several things to happen. 1. The principal to move from her office to the main hallway...2. People in the office to find hiding places, and in the process turn on the intercom. MANY THINGS NEED TO CHANGE.

So, although I think that lowering the amount of rounds is a "start"...it will not come even close to solving this problem. It has to be in better security, a "real" look at mental illness (which IMO would have stopped Loughner from what we now know, as well as the Arizona shooter, and quite possibly the Virginia Tech shooter).

As far as Newtown, note to people in general. If you have a son or daughter that you are afraid of....having a gun cabinet in the basement full of guns an ammunition, is not very smart.

 

[Kable24]

http://youtu.be/8C-CLsMRcA0

Here is a video explaining the difference between an assault rifle and an AR15. He also shows how fast anyone can reload a rifle.

I'm not LE/Military trained on guns, but even I can reload my AR magazines in about 1 to 2 seconds.

 

[justinlancaster]

Dnno1, I certainly understand where you are coming from...I have stated the same stuff, but after more research, honestly that wouldn't help...people can learn to reload in 5 seconds and being putting off another 6 to 9 rounds. You have someone that has say 2 handguns that can pull off say 9 rounds before reloading, could put off 36 rounds less than a minute. Now, is that better than 100 rounds. Definitely, but still 36 rounds.

If you buy twin mag locks you can load even faster.

http://www.bestgunstuff.com/p-11684-thermold-tml30-twin-mag-lock-ar15-30r.aspx

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1249200B.htm

Or if you want to save a little dough you could always tape them together.

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/bracken-in-praise-of-duplexed-ar-mags/

At first glance high-cap mag bans seem reasonable but upon closer inspection they don't pass the sniff test. Too many ways around them.

*waits for Dnno to call for a nationwide ban on tape*

 

[Kable24]

If you buy twin mag locks you can load even faster.

http://www.bestgunstuff.com/p-11684-thermold-tml30-twin-mag-lock-ar15-30r.aspx

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Products/1249200B.htm

Or if you want to save a little dough you could always tape them together.

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/bracken-in-praise-of-duplexed-ar-mags/

At first glance high-cap mag bans seem reasonable but upon closer inspection they don't pass the sniff test. Too many ways around them.

*waits for Dnno to call for a nationwide ban on tape*

I have a few of the Thermold couplers for my 20 round mags. I didn't like them, so I removed the mags from the locks. Luckily I kept the locks.

Ban tape and rubber bands!! They can make guns more eviler.

 

[dnno1]

I'm with you....all I'm saying is, if they want to kill a lot of people, they will. NOW, Newtown....better glass and door reinforcement, security person (well trained security person), hell even the Principal with a gun would/could have stopped him. He was slowed down, just as reloading would have slowed him down at the very beginning. He was slowed down enough for several things to happen. 1. The principal to move from her office to the main hallway...2. People in the office to find hiding places, and in the process turn on the intercom. MANY THINGS NEED TO CHANGE.

So, although I think that lowering the amount of rounds is a "start"...it will not come even close to solving this problem. It has to be in better security, a "real" look at mental illness (which IMO would have stopped Loughner from what we now know, as well as the Arizona shooter, and quite possibly the Virginia Tech shooter).

As far as Newtown, note to people in general. If you have a son or daughter that you are afraid of....having a gun cabinet in the basement full of guns an ammunition, is not very smart.

I will tell you this. The Aurora Colorado shooting had 70 casualties (12 dead, another 58 wounded). The shooter used an AR-15 style assault riffle with a 100 round magazine drum (of which he was only able to fire 30 before it jammed) along with a shot gun, and a Glock .22 pistol. There are no assault weapons laws in Colorado. Since the 1989 assault weapons ban in California, there have been 6 mass shootings in the state. None of these shootings have had more than 15 casualties -- none of them with assault weapons. The worst shooting was at a high school in Santee, CA where the shooter, who had a revolver was able to reload under the cover of a bathroom. Okay, there are still mass shootings, but with an AWB, we don't have mass casualties in the 60's and 70's caused by assault weapons or at least haven't had that in California.

 

[dnno1]

http://youtu.be/8C-CLsMRcA0

Here is a video explaining the difference between an assault rifle and an AR15. He also shows how fast anyone can reload a rifle.

I'm not LE/Military trained on guns, but even I can reload my AR magazines in about 1 to 2 seconds.

I'm sorry, guy, but if I have a choice between the definition given by the gun industry (which has a vested interest in selling bullets and guns) and what is written law, I' m following the law. It is not the fact that it is a machine gun or a semi-automatic weapon that makes it an assault weapon. It's the capacity to kill, maim, and suppress multiple target that makes it so.

 

[wiegeabo]

Oh, ok. So 15 is the acceptable number then?

Because for me, it's 0.

I just shake my head at all the talk about it wouldn't be as bad with this, or without that, is just avoiding the issue. It's trying to treat the symptoms without touching the cause. 'Less' bad is still bad.

The reason it's so hard to figure out what guns should be allowed, or what functionality should be allowed, or what accessories should be allowed, or how certain restrictions can be bypassed, is because it's not about the guns.

It's the PEOPLE.

Until we actually start treating and recognizing these people BEFORE these things happen, then no amount of gun control, or banning, or restricting will do anything. Why? Because there's always a workaround. A way to modify a weapon (or just get the damned thing illegally). And there're always alternative weapons.

 

[Destructus86]

Here's a question and I am very curious on anyones answer.

So, let's look back at earlier times...like the old west for instance. Guns were plentiful...they were all over the place, people openly packed them wherever they went. But aside from the random gang raid, you never saw a lone person walk into a busy area and just start shooting. Let's go forward in time now to the 50's and 60's...this sort of thing didn't happen then. Shootings in public like this just didn't happen and if they did they were incredibly rare.

Why?

Why now and not in the past? Why did we have 3 or 4 public shootings in one year when in the past this sort of thing just didn't happen?

What changed that now makes this a more common situation?

 

[dnno1]

Oh, ok. So 15 is the acceptable number then?

Because for me, it's 0.

I just shake my head at all the talk about it wouldn't be as bad with this, or without that, is just avoiding the issue. It's trying to treat the symptoms without touching the cause. 'Less' bad is still bad.

The reason it's so hard to figure out what guns should be allowed, or what functionality should be allowed, or what accessories should be allowed, or how certain restrictions can be bypassed, is because it's not about the guns.

It's the PEOPLE.

Until we actually start treating and recognizing these people BEFORE these things happen, then no amount of gun control, or banning, or restricting will do anything. Why? Because there's always a workaround. A way to modify a weapon (or just get the damned thing illegally). And there're always alternative weapons.

Certainly, 0 is desirable, but unfortunately I don't believe we could ban all weapons. What is important to note here, though is that there is measurable improvement in the number of casualties when assault weapons are banned. I will agree, though that there needs to be more work done to restrict weapons getting into the hands of criminals and the mentally ill.

 

[Kable24]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-chicago-shootings-20121204,0,1910956.story

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...26_1_gun-ordinance-gun-laws-firearm-ordinance

Chicago has some the strictest gun laws in the country and yet shootings run rampant in the city.

 

[Destructus86]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-chicago-shootings-20121204,0,1910956.story

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...26_1_gun-ordinance-gun-laws-firearm-ordinance

Chicago has some the strictest gun laws in the country and yet shootings run rampant in the city.

Yup...it's not a surprise at all. It's so easy to get a gun through non-legit means.

 

[Kable24]

That's the point. No matter how many anti gun laws are made bad people will still find a way to get guns and do harm. If there were no guns people would find others ways to cause harm. All the laws do is hurt people who enjoy the sport of shooting from buying the rifles we enjoy to shoot.

It's illegal to buy crack, sell, crack and smoke crack, but people still do it. 9 times out of 10 a person committing a crime with a gun is a felon or obtained the gun illegally.

Unfortunately, the morons writing these laws have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to guns. Just look at Dianne Feinstein and people like Carolyn McCarthy.

http://youtu.be/ospNRk2uM3U

These are the elected idiots making up things as they go.