Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[Kable24]

http://youtu.be/evEg1VNfX3o

I found this funny, yet informative. Chuck Woolery of all people.

 

[Destructus86]

I wasn't talking about mass shootings. I meant gun crime in general. Like armed robbery, things like that.

The answer isn't too far off from the previous one. Instead of mental illness a lot of armed robberies are out of desperation/poverty. It's a gradual build up till a person gets to the point where they do what they feel they have to out of hopelessness.

It's not an excuse. But it IS a symptom of our society in a huge amount of cases.


I think I finally figured out what's bothering me about this whole debate...anti-gun people think that if we all ban guns the problem will be mostly solved. But it won't. Because this problem is the combination of multiple built up social issues.

There will never be one solution to a multi-level problem. Banning guns is just a tiny part of a greater issue that we just don't want to deal with as a society.

 

[dnno1]

That's not a telescopic stock. Telescopic would mean that I one position it was much shorter than I another position. The slide stock is simply allowing the recoil of the bolt to be used to push the gun forward so another round can be fired without the shooter actually pulling the trigger a second time. That being said, I cannot fathom how these things are legal as they effectively allow for fully automatic fire. Now, as Kabal and others have pointed out, automatic fire is wasteful and, for the most part, inaccurate. However, the whole idea of full auto is to put as many rounds down range as possible in the shortest time. They were not designed for accuracy, they were designed to cause mass casualties to a large group. So, while it's not happened that someone used a slide stock on a rifle to commit mass modern, you can't really deny that a weapon like that has any less potential to do so than an actual fully automatic rifle.

[YT]29evY77S13M[/YT]

The definition of the intransitive verb telescope means to to become forced together lengthwise with one part entering another as the result of collision or to to become compressed or condensed (as like a telescope). The bump fire stock (or any telescoping stock) slides along the back shaft (I guess you guys call it the receiver extension, but I want to be more generic in the description) of the gun compressing or expanding the length. That's the definition of a telescoping stock and it can be use to make a semi-automatic rifle rapid fire like a machine gun when combined with a magazine that has multiple rounds in it. Just as a dirty estimate, the gentleman in the video above fired a 20 to 25 round clip in about 3 seconds. That's over 400 rounds per minute and approaching the rate of a World War I machine gun. You limit the amount of rounds a shooter can fire to 5 or 10 and that rate is a lot less.

 

[Hotwire]

[YT]29evY77S13M[/YT]

The definition of the intransitive verb telescope means to to become forced together lengthwise with one part entering another as the result of collision or to to become compressed or condensed (as like a telescope). The bump fire stock (or any telescoping stock) slides along the back shaft (I guess you guys call it the receiver extension, but I want to be more generic in the description) of the gun compressing or expanding the length. That's the definition of a telescoping stock and it can be use to make a semi-automatic rifle rapid fire like a machine gun when combined with a magazine that has multiple rounds in it. Just as a dirty estimate, the gentleman in the video above fired a 20 to 25 round clip in about 3 seconds. That's over 400 rounds per minute and approaching the rate of a World War I machine gun. You limit the amount of rounds a shooter can fire to 5 or 10 and that rate is a lot less.

You argued before that a telescopic stock made a rifle easier to conceal. That's correct. It changes in length by a significant amount. This stock actually stays the same length, it just moves back and forth. In fact, in that video, the stock itself doesn't move at all, the rifle does.

 

[Spider-Who?]

[YT]29evY77S13M[/YT]

The definition of the intransitive verb telescope means to to become forced together lengthwise with one part entering another as the result of collision or to to become compressed or condensed (as like a telescope). The bump fire stock (or any telescoping stock) slides along the back shaft (I guess you guys call it the receiver extension, but I want to be more generic in the description) of the gun compressing or expanding the length. That's the definition of a telescoping stock and it can be use to make a semi-automatic rifle rapid fire like a machine gun when combined with a magazine that has multiple rounds in it. Just as a dirty estimate, the gentleman in the video above fired a 20 to 25 round clip in about 3 seconds. That's over 400 rounds per minute and approaching the rate of a World War I machine gun. You limit the amount of rounds a shooter can fire to 5 or 10 and that rate is a lot less.

Dude. Seriously. Watching a few seconds of a video does not give you the information you need. I suggest actually sitting and watching/reading to actually become educated on this topic, as nothing you mentioned is true.


Telescoping stocks are designed so that a user has options that, depending on the design, either collapse or fold into itself for more or less length. They're designed for customized comfort/better accuracy for users and storage. Nothing more. They lock into place and a button/lever must be pressed in order to adjust the length, therefor they - by their nature - can't be used to simulate "full" auto. Even IF you were able to remove the locking mechanism, it still would not work as you're suggesting because the amount of distance between an open and closed stock is far to long to give you the desired result that you see in the video. Removing the locking mechanism (if even possible without destroying the stock) would only do two things: damage your gun and injure yourself for not properly seating the gun in your shoulder.

A bump fire stock such as the one scene in the video is not a telescoping stock. It is a fixed position stock (meaning you can't change it's length) where part of the stock allows for a small range of motion (just a few inches) to "push" the gun forward into your trigger finger after the recoil.

These are not the same. At all. If you want to argue the necessity of a bump fire stock, that's one thing (i see no need for them and wouldn't oppose banning them), but you need to stop trying to argue that a telescoping stock = simulated full auto. They don't. End of story.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Dude. Seriously. Watching a few seconds of a video does not give you the information you need. I suggest actually sitting and watching/reading to actually become educated on this topic, as nothing you mentioned is true.


Telescoping stocks are designed so that a user has options that, depending on the design, either collapse or fold into itself for more or less length. They're designed for customized comfort/better accuracy for users and storage. Nothing more. They lock into place and a button/lever must be pressed in order to adjust the length, therefor they - by their nature - can't be used to simulate "full" auto. Even IF you were able to remove the locking mechanism, it still would not work as you're suggesting because the amount of distance between an open and closed stock is far to long to give you the desired result that you see in the video. Removing the locking mechanism (if even possible without destroying the stock) would only do two things: damage your gun and injure yourself for not properly seating the gun in your shoulder.

A bump fire stock such as the one scene in the video is not a telescoping stock. It is a fixed position stock (meaning you can't change it's length) where part of the stock allows for a small range of motion (just a few inches) to "push" the gun forward into your trigger finger after the recoil.

These are not the same. At all. If you want to argue the necessity of a bump fire stock, that's one thing (i see no need for them and wouldn't oppose banning them), but you need to stop trying to argue that a telescoping stock = simulated full auto. They don't. End of story.

If he doesn't get it now, he'll never get the basic facts right since he's leaning on Youtube to explain his arguments. He's also obviously anti-gun and at age 51, won't change his thinking either.

 

[Spider-Who?]

You're probably right. I give the desire of people to learn too much credit.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

You're probably right. I give the desire of people to learn too much credit.

You just can't change the willfully ignorant.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

On the first day for the new Congress to be in session, 8 new anti-gun bill were introduced. And no surprise, all were brought up by notorious anti-gun Democrats. These are basically DOA in the House.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/275587-10-gun-bills-introduced-in-first-day-of-the-house

 

[Spider-Who?]

On the first day for the new Congress to be in session, 8 new anti-gun bill were introduced. And no surprise, all were brought up by notorious anti-gun Democrats. These are basically DOA in the House.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/275587-10-gun-bills-introduced-in-first-day-of-the-house

I'm surprised that most of them are relatively reasonable. Though I'm not sure where they're getting the idea that you only have to be 18 to own a handgun. Are there states that allow this? I know in my state the law for rifles is 18 and hand guns is 21.

 

[dnno1]

Dude. Seriously. Watching a few seconds of a video does not give you the information you need. I suggest actually sitting and watching/reading to actually become educated on this topic, as nothing you mentioned is true.


Telescoping stocks are designed so that a user has options that, depending on the design, either collapse or fold into itself for more or less length. They're designed for customized comfort/better accuracy for users and storage. Nothing more. They lock into place and a button/lever must be pressed in order to adjust the length, therefor they - by their nature - can't be used to simulate "full" auto. Even IF you were able to remove the locking mechanism, it still would not work as you're suggesting because the amount of distance between an open and closed stock is far to long to give you the desired result that you see in the video. Removing the locking mechanism (if even possible without destroying the stock) would only do two things: damage your gun and injure yourself for not properly seating the gun in your shoulder.

A bump fire stock such as the one scene in the video is not a telescoping stock. It is a fixed position stock (meaning you can't change it's length) where part of the stock allows for a small range of motion (just a few inches) to "push" the gun forward into your trigger finger after the recoil.

These are not the same. At all. If you want to argue the necessity of a bump fire stock, that's one thing (i see no need for them and wouldn't oppose banning them), but you need to stop trying to argue that a telescoping stock = simulated full auto. They don't. End of story.

Like I said before If it compresses and expands in length it's a telescopic stock. It doesn't matter what the function is, but the action. Even if it was initially designed for adjustment, it can be modified to bump fire just because that is one of the necessary features in the bump fire stock.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Like I said before If it compresses and expands in length it's a telescopic stock. It doesn't matter what the function is, but the action. Even if it was initially designed for adjustment, it can be modified to bump fire just because that is one of the necessary feature in the bump fire stock.

Again. You're wrong. The bump fire stock slides the finger rest near the trigger back and forth, causing the gun to move against your trigger finger. The length of the stock itself does not change. That would be ludicrous and would completely defeat the purpose of the rifle's stock (which is to provide a secure position to rest a rifle for accuracy and control). Even by your definition, it is not a telescoping stock.

The only way a telescoping stock can be modified into a bump fire is if you rip it off the gun and replace it with a bump fire stock, because a bump fire stock is more than just the butt of a rifle. But for argument's sake, let's say it IS possible, as others have repeatedly mentioned, you can get the same results with as little as a rubber band or your finger in a belt loop, without having to buy any tools or make any modifications.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Semi-automatic weapons have been around since the late 1800's. Hell, the gatling gun was invented in 1862.

Try fitting a gattling gun in your pocket. Semiautomatics may have been around for a century, but they didn't become as common as they are today until after the Second World War.

And also, emphasis on more crazy people.

 

[Kable24]

Again. You're wrong. The bump fire stock slides the finger rest near the trigger back and forth, causing the gun to move against your trigger finger. The length of the stock itself does not change. That would be ludicrous and would completely defeat the purpose of the rifle's stock (which is to provide a secure position to rest a rifle for accuracy and control). Even by your definition, it is not a telescoping stock.

The only way a telescoping stock can be modified into a bump fire is if you rip it off the gun and replace it with a bump fire stock, because a bump fire stock is more than just the butt of a rifle. But for argument's sake, let's say it IS possible, as others have repeatedly mentioned, you can get the same results with as little as a rubber band or your finger in a belt loop, without having to buy any tools or make any modifications.

You should just give up. He's too stubborn and bull headed to accept anything from people who have used rifles and own rifles. I doubt he's 51. Probably 15 with how he acts.

 

[dnno1]

Again. You're wrong. The bump fire stock slides the finger rest near the trigger back and forth, causing the gun to move against your trigger finger. The length of the stock itself does not change. That would be ludicrous and would completely defeat the purpose of the rifle's stock (which is to provide a secure position to rest a rifle for accuracy and control). Even by your definition, it is not a telescoping stock.

The only way a telescoping stock can be modified into a bump fire is if you rip it off the gun and replace it with a bump fire stock, because a bump fire stock is more than just the butt of a rifle. But for argument's sake, let's say it IS possible, as others have repeatedly mentioned, you can get the same results with as little as a rubber band or your finger in a belt loop, without having to buy any tools or make any modifications.

Watch the video again, the stock slides back and forth along the back shaft (receiver extension) -- the finger rest is connected to the stock so they move together. That's a telescoping action and thus a telescoping stock.

 

[dnno1]

You should just give up. He's too stubborn and bull headed to accept anything from people who have used rifles and own rifles. I doubt he's 51. Probably 15 with how he acts.

It not about being stubborn, but about making sure people know the truth. These features you guys are calling cosmetic when used in concert a can make these so called "sporting rifles" assault weapons. The legislators and law enforcement knew this as to why they listed them in their AWB's.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Watch the video again, the stock slides back and forth along the back shaft (receiver extension) -- the finger rest is connected to the stock so they move together. That's a telescoping action and thus a telescoping stock.

It is not a telescoping stock. It is a slide mechanism that pushes the the gun forward. The two are totally different designs, functions, mechanisms and actions. Give it up. You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

It not about being stubborn, but about making sure people know the truth. These features you guys are calling cosmetic when used in concert a can make these so called "sporting rifles" assault weapons. The legislators and law enforcement knew this as to why they listed them in their AWB's.

That's not going to happen with a person who doesn't understand the basics of guns and their features.

 

[Kable24]

Maybe this will explain it in crayon for the thick headed.
http://www.gunblast.com/SlideFire.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

Installing the Slide Fire stock on an AR-15 is very simple, quick, and easy to do. First, empty the weapon, then remove the pistol grip by removing the bolt that attaches it to the lower receiver. While doing so, be careful to not let the spring and plunger for the safety lever fly over into the next county. Retain the spring and plunger, and install the interface block, using the bolt which attached the pistol grip. Next, remove the telescoping buttstock. On most, this is done quickly, without the use of tools. Slide the Slide Fire buttstock over the tube, and you are ready to go burn some ammo. The process takes all of five minutes, if you take your time.​

To fire the weapon with the Slide Fire stock, the shooter pulls the weapon to his shoulder using his strong hand. Being a left-handed shooter, that would be my left hand. For most of the world, it means the right. Anyway, with the hand that holds the pistol grip, pull the weapon into the shoulder firmly, but relaxed. The trigger finger is not upon the trigger, but is placed across the trigger onto the finger rail. With the hand that is holding the forearm/hand guard, push forward. This forward motion pushes the trigger into the trigger finger. As the rifle recoils, the trigger, along with the rest of the rifle, will recoil rearward away from the trigger finger. Applying pressure forward repeats the process. As long as forward pressure is applied to the forearm, the weapon will continue to fire until the magazine is empty. Cool! Again, this is not full-auto fire. The rifle is still firing only once with each pull of the trigger, but the rapid motion of the weapon recoiling and the pressure of pushing the weapon forward again will empty a thirty-round magazine in about three seconds.


By the way BATFE says it is perfectly legal because it doesn't alter any of the internals of the rifle. Does the thick minded realize that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives is a government agency. So of course if they say it is legal to own then it is OK.
​

[/FONT]

 

[Kable24]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/

What? How dare she use a gun to protect her children from a burglar?

 

[dnno1]

Maybe this will explain it in crayon for the thick headed.
http://www.gunblast.com/SlideFire.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

Installing the Slide Fire stock on an AR-15 is very simple, quick, and easy to do. First, empty the weapon, then remove the pistol grip by removing the bolt that attaches it to the lower receiver. While doing so, be careful to not let the spring and plunger for the safety lever fly over into the next county. Retain the spring and plunger, and install the interface block, using the bolt which attached the pistol grip. Next, remove the telescoping buttstock. On most, this is done quickly, without the use of tools. Slide the Slide Fire buttstock over the tube, and you are ready to go burn some ammo. The process takes all of five minutes, if you take your time.​

To fire the weapon with the Slide Fire stock, the shooter pulls the weapon to his shoulder using his strong hand. Being a left-handed shooter, that would be my left hand. For most of the world, it means the right. Anyway, with the hand that holds the pistol grip, pull the weapon into the shoulder firmly, but relaxed. The trigger finger is not upon the trigger, but is placed across the trigger onto the finger rail. With the hand that is holding the forearm/hand guard, push forward. This forward motion pushes the trigger into the trigger finger. As the rifle recoils, the trigger, along with the rest of the rifle, will recoil rearward away from the trigger finger. Applying pressure forward repeats the process. As long as forward pressure is applied to the forearm, the weapon will continue to fire until the magazine is empty. Cool! Again, this is not full-auto fire. The rifle is still firing only once with each pull of the trigger, but the rapid motion of the weapon recoiling and the pressure of pushing the weapon forward again will empty a thirty-round magazine in about three seconds.


By the way BATFE says it is perfectly legal because it doesn't alter any of the internals of the rifle. Does the thick minded realize that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives is a government agency. So of course if they say it is legal to own then it is OK.
​

[/FONT]

Those are illegal in California and would have been illegal had the federal AWB still been in place.

 

[Anita18]

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/woman-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/nTm7s/

What? How dare she use a gun to protect her children from a burglar?

She had one gun with 6 rounds. That's the right way to do it. That guy wasn't in any shape to go after them after that.

And there's also this. 4 dead in Aurora, CO in a hostage situation involving a gunman. Yes, THAT Aurora, CO.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/05/us-usa-shooting-colorado-idUSBRE90408W20130105

He shot and killed 3 people before firing at officers, who shot back and killed him. I'll bet you there were multiple guns involved.

 

[Kable24]

Dealing with the thick headed on here.

 

[Kable24]

According to released stats from the FBI there are more murders with hammers than so called assault rifles. I say we ban hammers. Won't someone think of the children. I demand hammers be registered.

 

[dnno1]

According to released stats from the FBI there are more murders with hammers than so called assault rifles. I say we ban hammers. Won't someone think of the children. I demand hammers be registered.

It's pretty ridiculous and sad how people cherry pick the data to show a misleading point. The truth of the matter is that firearms in general (not only rifles) are involved in over 30,000 deaths each year and account for 17% of deaths (according to the CDC). That dwarfs the number of people who get killed with hammers.