Discussion: The Second Amendment III

[Bill]

It's pretty ridiculous and sad how people cherry pick the data to show a misleading point. The truth of the matter is that firearms in general (not only rifles) are involved in over 30,000 deaths each year and account for 17% of deaths (according to the CDC). That dwarfs the number of people who get killed with hammers.

Cherry picking indeed, as only about half of those being actual homicides, the other half and more are suicides. Gun related homicides are actually declining, but touting that 30,000+ number looks so much better than 15,000 or less. Factor in illegal gun ownership and those numbers get even lower. Gun bans will affect only those who choose to follow them. The suicides aren't going to change, and neither will those who obtain firearms illegally.

Yeah, cherry picking.

 

[dnno1]

Cherry picking indeed, as only about half of those being actual homicides, the other half and more are suicides. Gun related homicides are actually declining, but touting that 30,000+ number looks so much better than 15,000 or less. Factor in illegal gun ownership and those numbers get even lower. Gun bans will affect only those who choose to follow them. The suicides aren't going to change, and neither will those who obtain firearms illegally.

Yeah, cherry picking.

Suicides and involuntary deaths are applicable since they are all unwanted. Furthermore, they choose one category of firearm (rifles) when the assault weapons ban would cover more than just that (pistols, rifles, and some shotguns under certain conditions). Even at 15,000 deaths that would be more than an order of magnitude larger than the number of deaths by (all sorts of) hammers. Ordinary hammers used in construction, like rocks, were not designed to kill, but if they are used for that purpose they become deadly weapons, and we do have laws to cover that.

 

[craigdbfan]

Castrated gun rights in California in my view has encouraged and facilitated crime to a disgusting degree. This entire "Ban Guns" and everything will be solved mentality has to be one of the most naive "movements" I've seen in a while.

Empowering criminals by having innocent civilians completely at the whim of bureaucratic bologna has to be one of the most frustrating things ever. Banning guns is most definitely not the solution and a foolhardy idea at that.

Doesn't anyone find it odd that the states/cities with the strictest gun laws have the worst crime of the country? I don't think it's a coincidence. Castrated self defense laws and having completely misguided lawmakers doing their uttermost in limiting the lawful citizen to protect itself from criminals who provide further state funding for the essential cogs in "justice" system to keep ticking is sick. I guess this is sort of California specific but that doesn't sound like justice to me at all.

 

[Anita18]

Castrated gun rights in California in my view has encouraged and facilitated crime to a disgusting degree. This entire "Ban Guns" and everything will be solved mentality has to be one of the most naive "movements" I've seen in a while.

Empowering criminals by having innocent civilians completely at the whim of bureaucratic bologna has to be one of the most frustrating things ever. Banning guns is most definitely not the solution and a foolhardy idea at that.

Doesn't anyone find it odd that the states/cities with the strictest gun laws have the worst crime of the country? I don't think it's a coincidence. Castrated self defense laws and having completely misguided lawmakers doing their uttermost in limiting the lawful citizen to protect itself from criminals who provide further state funding for the essential cogs in "justice" system to keep ticking is sick. I guess this is sort of California specific but that doesn't sound like justice to me at all.

At the same time, the most horrific of mass shootings were committed by people with no criminal record. Obviously gang violence is terrible, but it doesn't make the news as much. You're right, banning guns won't solve gang violence because gangs don't get their guns by legal means. They don't give a crap.

But this latest fervor for gun control is to stop another Newtown from happening. Even a gang wouldn't be so stupid to barge into an elementary school shooting up a bunch of white upper-middle-class kids.

 

[Hawkingbird]

A better mental health system is needed.

 

[Phallic]

At the same time, the most horrific of mass shootings were committed by people with no criminal record. Obviously gang violence is terrible, but it doesn't make the news as much. You're right, banning guns won't solve gang violence because gangs don't get their guns by legal means. They don't give a crap.

But this latest fervor for gun control is to stop another Newtown from happening. Even a gang wouldn't be so stupid to barge into an elementary school shooting up a bunch of white upper-middle-class kids.

Considering that the most deadly public mass shooting in the history of the USA was perpetrated with a 10 round capacity .22 LR plinker pistol, there really aren't any gun laws that could stop future tragedies from happening.

Some people are evil. Unfortunately, these same people are creative. Even if you could find some magical way to eradicate society entirely of guns, there will be other ways to kill lots of innocent people. Remember that the the deadliest mass murders weren't committed with firearms. Oklahoma City bombings and Happyland Nightclub arson are good examples.

It's also important to keep these things in perspective. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning than dying in a mass shooting. The number of people who use a standard capacity magazine and "assault weapons" to defend themselves are far greater than the amount of people who are killed by them during a mass shooting.

 

[Phallic]

Suicides and involuntary deaths are applicable since they are all unwanted. Furthermore, they choose one category of firearm (rifles) when the assault weapons ban would cover more than just that (pistols, rifles, and some shotguns under certain conditions). Even at 15,000 deaths that would be more than an order of magnitude larger than the number of deaths by (all sorts of) hammers. Ordinary hammers used in construction, like rocks, were not designed to kill, but if they are used for that purpose they become deadly weapons, and we do have laws to cover that.

So your assumption is that if someone is suicidal and don't own a gun, they will decide not to commit suicide after all? It's amazing the amount of mental gymnastics that is required to support the anti-gun position.

A vast majority (i.e. over 95% of all violent crime) is committed with illegally obtained firearms. Trying to ban away all your problems is a comically simplistic and naive way of trying to deal with the crime problem. And, as is the case in many cities with strict gun control policies in place, akin to murdering the thousands of innocent people each year who were deprived the right to defend themselves.

You can defend the AWB until your eyes bleed, but the fact you can't point to a single respected study supporting it is very telling. You have a right to support a statist point of view of banning anything that you dislike or don't feel a "need" for. That right ends when you try to unreasonably restrict my right to defend myself.

Anti-gunners can try to marginalize gun owners as much as they want, but that doesn't change the fact that gun rights supporters are the majority in this country. The NRA isn't powerful because of some illuminati like influence, it's because there is a significant majority who believe in the 2nd amendment and understand that trying to legislate criminals out of existence is a foolish and dangerous endeavor.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I have to say, I'm a bit surprised by the politics of this.

Usually it's the liberals who make a well-educated argument from reason. In this situation, it seems to be mostly poorly educated (at least when it comes to guns), reactionary liberals who want to pass sweeping gun legislation.

I guess I have to side with the conservatives on this one.

 

[Hotwire]

Phallic, I'm curious. What's your suggestion for preventing gun crime? I may have missed it but, you seem to have a, "nothing you can do," type attitude. Please, clarify for me.

 

[Phallic]

Phallic, I'm curious. What's your suggestion for preventing gun crime? I may have missed it but, you seem to have a, "nothing you can do," type attitude. Please, clarify for me.

More funding towards Law Enforcement, stronger focus on enforcing the gun laws we currently have on the books, overhaul of the current mental health infrastructure currently in place, stricter sentencing for violent criminals, loosening locations where CCW holders can carry (some may disagree on this, but gun free zones have been fantastical failures), tax incentives / breaks on gun safes / training / etc., improvement in the education system, etc.

There are all kinds of ways to address the violent crime issue without jumping onto the ban-wagon.

 

[craigdbfan]

More funding towards Law Enforcement, stronger focus on enforcing the gun laws we currently have on the books, overhaul of the current mental health infrastructure currently in place, stricter sentencing for violent criminals, loosening locations where CCW holders can carry (some may disagree on this, but gun free zones have been fantastical failures), tax incentives / breaks on gun safes / training / etc., improvement in the education system, etc.

There are all kinds of ways to address the violent crime issue without jumping onto the ban-wagon.

Definitely the step in the right direction.

 

[Bill]

Suicides and involuntary deaths are applicable since they are all unwanted. Furthermore, they choose one category of firearm (rifles) when the assault weapons ban would cover more than just that (pistols, rifles, and some shotguns under certain conditions). Even at 15,000 deaths that would be more than an order of magnitude larger than the number of deaths by (all sorts of) hammers. Ordinary hammers used in construction, like rocks, were not designed to kill, but if they are used for that purpose they become deadly weapons, and we do have laws to cover that.

But those numbers aren't going to go away with a gun ban. If people want to kill themselves, then they will find a way, including using those firearms not covered in the ban. Or, even, a hammer.

The poster was a snide way of displaying the silly logic of banning certain tools in an effort to stop a particular behavior. The last AWB did absolutely nothing to curb gun crime, even with those particular weapons since what the Government dubs assault weapons aren't used in violent crime frequently enough to even warrant thinking that such a ban would be effective.

If you want to use numbers and statistics to prove a point, then make sure they do so. If you could provide statistics that say the majority of gun related crime is done by honest citizens with legally owned weapons, then banning weapons from those citizens might be effective. But that is not the case at all. Criminals will obtain weapons, true assault weapons, not the pretend ones banned by the government, and commit crime. And these idiotic bans make it easier for the them to do so, not harder.

 

[Schlosser85]

Trying to prevent suicide through gun bans is like taking a gun out of a suicidal person's room but leaving them a knife, a rope, and a bottle of sleeping pills. It's improving the way we deal with mental illness that's the answer to that, not banning guns.

 

[Kable24]

More funding towards Law Enforcement, stronger focus on enforcing the gun laws we currently have on the books, overhaul of the current mental health infrastructure currently in place, stricter sentencing for violent criminals, loosening locations where CCW holders can carry (some may disagree on this, but gun free zones have been fantastical failures), tax incentives / breaks on gun safes / training / etc., improvement in the education system, etc.

There are all kinds of ways to address the violent crime issue without jumping onto the ban-wagon.

All things I can agree with.

 

[Marvin]

Remove every violent film and "music" for the next five years and see what happens to the gun violence rate.
That's the question I have for these people in the media suggesting there be some policy in place for such things....

I for one am curious what would happen if every gun(legal or not) was actively removed from our streets and neighborhoods for the next five years. Such a thing being as out there as the above suggestion.
There would be a change, for better or worse.
I'm thinking better. I just don't see America turning into Mexico if I'm not allowed to buy a gun.

All the gun violence/deaths on these charts isn't just a representation of bad guys shooting good guys. Alot of it is legal manslaughter amongst other things. And by that I mean (frontier living)home owners shooting unarmed law breakers.

just a thought.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I have to say, I'm a bit surprised by the politics of this.

Usually it's the liberals who make a well-educated argument from reason. In this situation,

No, liberals are just as loudly ignorant as the rest of the political parties.

it seems to be mostly poorly educated (at least when it comes to guns), reactionary liberals who want to pass sweeping gun legislation.

I guess I have to side with the conservatives on this one.

Conservatives and Republicans get called out as the "pro-gun" groups by certain groups and news organizations, but the truth is that those who agree with the 2nd Amendment are spread pretty equally across the isle. It's merely the volume of the extremist few on both sides that really define the misconception.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I dunno, killing yourself with a gun, is a man's way of killing yourself.

If you outlawed guns, they'd have to get a sword or something.

No self-respecting man kills himself with pills.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Wut.

 

[Paradoxium]

I think we need more gun control... on the people who guard politicians t:

 

[Destructus86]

Remove every violent film and "music" for the next five years and see what happens to the gun violence rate.
That's the question I have for these people in the media suggesting there be some policy in place for such things....

I for one am curious what would happen if every gun(legal or not) was actively removed from our streets and neighborhoods for the next five years. Such a thing being as out there as the above suggestion.
There would be a change, for better or worse.
I'm thinking better. I just don't see America turning into Mexico if I'm not allowed to buy a gun.

All the gun violence/deaths on these charts isn't just a representation of bad guys shooting good guys. Alot of it is legal manslaughter amongst other things. And by that I mean (frontier living)home owners shooting unarmed law breakers.

just a thought.

The best way to bring down gun violence is to completely change the way our society is run. No more fast paced, sleep deprived, selfishly driven lifestyles and more effort towards helping those with mental disorders and chemical imbalances.

Yeah...that'll happen.

 

[SV Fan]

I was just thinking of something

Since the 2nd amendment says you have a right to own a gun, why not just make bullets illegal. lol

 

[Kelly]

I was just thinking of something

Since the 2nd amendment says you have a right to own a gun, why not just make bullets illegal. lol

Well, actually it looks like that is just what Biden's committee will be going for....they are starting with ammunition, the larger clips etc.

 

[NiteMare Shape]

Under the D.i.c.k. Act of 1902, gun control is illegal.

Here's alittle more about it

http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/government/us_constitution/gun_control/news.php?q=1237163642


A new twist in the gun control issue... http://2012thebigpicture.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/vermont-to-require-non-gun-owners-to-pay-a-fine/

Vermont is actually looking to fine non gun owners $500 for not being prepared to defend the state should they be called upon to do so.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well you never know when Canada is going to try to invade Vermont again.

 

[Phallic]

I was just thinking of something

Since the 2nd amendment says you have a right to own a gun, why not just make bullets illegal. lol

I'm pretty sure you're joking on this, but sadly there are some who are attempting this.

It's as if they think people are really that stupid.