Discussion: The Second Amendment III

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The United States has a murder rate of 4.8/100,000 while the United Kingdom has a murder rate of 1.2/100,000. So, we have a rate 4 times higher than they do and yet, the only way we can prevent it from going higher, unlike the UK, is to make guns more easily accessible. I'm not sure why you brought up Chicago other than a dig at Obama.

Now, now, while I am no fan of Obama (Voted for Obama in 2008 as a registered Democrat or Independent and Johnson in 2012 as a registered Libertarian), that wasn't a dig at him. Chicago has a messy murder rate even with gun control.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/08/chicago-homicide-rate-alr_n_2433329.html
 
Okay. I was comparing the US to the UK. Not sure why Chicago had to be brought up since it was already covered by the US.

Because Chicago enacted gun control laws, and their crime rates went way up.

Someone posted here somewhere about where, in the US, the areas that have enacted strict gun control laws have seen their crime rates go up, not down.
 
I live in KY and that shooting that happened is scary. I go to college and hate the idea of not feeling safe due to the apparent large amount of nuts out there. But I still think this whole debate is mainly being brought on due to the shootings happening so close together, killing has been around forever as we all know.
 
The one I posted about is not from my county but with how the sheriffs are in counties with heavy rural areas, like mine, they'll do something similar.

Ive heard that Texas is trying to pass legislation saying that any ATF agent that comes into the state and tries to take someone's guns or infringes upon the rights of Texas citizens will be charged in a Texas court. One other state is trying this as well. I do kind of agree that gun laws should be a state decision, but the logistics of that could be a nightmare.
 
Ive heard that Texas is trying to pass legislation saying that any ATF agent that comes into the state and tries to take someones guns or infringes upon the rights of Texas citizen will be charged in a Texas court. One other state is trying this as well.
Wyoming is the other. I've read Utah and Idaho are discussing something similar.
 
Because Chicago enacted gun control laws, and their crime rates went way up.

Someone posted here somewhere about where, in the US, the areas that have enacted strict gun control laws have seen their crime rates go up, not down.
So, I guess we'd have to look at why in the US, when we restrict the guns, rates go up but, when other countries do it, they end up lower.

What I'd like to see are some hard numbers on just how many murders are prevented because the victim was armed.
 
Wyoming is the other. I've read Utah and Idaho are discussing something similar.

When states are talking secession and other BS I scoff, but with something like this I take it more seriously. People are passionate about their rights and guns and states have differing views about guns and the Federal government making sweeping changes and telling people they are criminals if they keep their magazines and certain guns is going to cause problems, especially when those changes come by way of executive orders. These states, especially Texas, will stand by their citizens so we could be looking at a big stink. You can count rural law enforcement out as well. These officers know their locals personally and they arent going to report them to the Federal Government for what was once legal.
 
Ive heard that Texas is trying to pass legislation saying that any ATF agent that comes into the state and tries to take someone's guns or infringes upon the rights of Texas citizens will be charged in a Texas court. One other state is trying this as well. I do kind of agree that gun laws should be a state decision, but the logistics of that could be a nightmare.

According to 4chan, that's also happening in Louisiana and Wyoming.

We've had murders before this, Hotwire, and will have them after, regardless. No digs at our President; just the facts. Illegal didn't stop em before.
 
We've had murders before this, Hotwire, and will have them after, regardless. No digs at our President; just the facts. Illegal didn't stop em before.
So, I guess we just throw up our hands and do nothing? Far too many people take this stance that there's just nothing that can ever be done to stop murders from happening. And yet, there are plenty of other developed countries around the world that have managed to do it WITHOUT arming their citizens.
 
I see no reason to punish the majority for an anomaly. That's all.
 
So, I guess we just throw up our hands and do nothing? Far too many people take this stance that there's just nothing that can ever be done to stop murders from happening. And yet, there are plenty of other developed countries around the world that have managed to do it WITHOUT arming their citizens.

Other countries arent america. We are a country that will live and die for our real and believed rights so you cant really compare our gun laws and ideas about guns to other countries. Our whole dynamic and the way we as a people think is different. We want to own guns for various reasons and we have that right. That will never change and any politician who thinks otherwise is asking for trouble from numerous sides. The key is to be sensitive to the rights and desires of the innocent people. Im fine with regulations just not kneejerk reactions to an event that the majority wont lose sleep over for more than a year. Outlawing all guns tomorrow wont bring those kids back so lets settle down and smartly discuss solutions instead of enacting laws left and right to make ourselves feel better.
 
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If anything, a focused action on those problem areas might be more universally accepted.
 
So, I guess we just throw up our hands and do nothing? Far too many people take this stance that there's just nothing that can ever be done to stop murders from happening. And yet, there are plenty of other developed countries around the world that have managed to do it WITHOUT arming their citizens.
And yet the only fixes these politicians and anti-gunners can think of deal with guns, but also don't take into account poor mental health or even poor parenting for these mass shootings occurring.
 
And yet the only fixes these politicians and anti-gunners can think of deal with guns, but also don't take into account poor mental health or even poor parenting for these mass shootings occurring.
The fact they arent discussing this stuff tells me this is all political maneuvering and not about realistically curbing violence. Ill put it this way, im sick at the thought of what happened to thos children. Id trade with one of those kids if I could. However, we as a nation should not be handing away rights in the vain hope it will change the past. We have to change the future, and that only comes from measured intelligent discussions. Not thought blinded by passion and grief. Its only been a month and these politicians think they know what will fix the problem. There is no way they have adequately gathered independent data, studied it, used control groups, and drawn a logical conclusion backed by data. They have swallowed and spewed the same "data" and "facts" that have been spewed for years and they are making laws with it. Its irresponsible and down right reckless.
 
And yet the only fixes these politicians and anti-gunners can think of deal with guns, but also don't take into account poor mental health or even poor parenting for these mass shootings occurring.
And the "pro-gunners" want to address anything but the guns. The solutions are in the middle. They deal with doing something about the guns, doing something about mental health, and in my opinion, doing something about poverty. The problem that defeats any attempt to solve the problem is that, while neither side is willing to do much compromising, the pro-gun side seems much more stubborn. They refuse to make any compromise when it comes to regulating guns at all. As Marvolo said earlier, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Allowing everyone to own whatever gun they want with no restrictions is NOT a well regulated militia. It's a free-for-all.
 
The free for all was probably intended in the event of foreign occupation.
 
And the "pro-gunners" want to address anything but the guns. The solutions are in the middle. They deal with doing something about the guns, doing something about mental health, and in my opinion, doing something about poverty. The problem that defeats any attempt to solve the problem is that, while neither side is willing to do much compromising, the pro-gun side seems much more stubborn. They refuse to make any compromise when it comes to regulating guns at all. As Marvolo said earlier, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Allowing everyone to own whatever gun they want with no restrictions is NOT a well regulated militia. It's a free-for-all.

The extreme pro-gunners see regulation as a slippery slope that will lead to further regulation until our rights are stripped piece by piece. Largely this is paranoia, but how do you get these people to believe that the government isnt after their guns when you have far right media saying that the government is going to do that? After two years of fox news proclaiming Obama everything from the antichrist to a muslim hitler can you really blame the paranoid for being paranoid. This fanaticism in media blathering their lies isnt helping this country either. This goes for the far-left media and their BS as well. Its a cancer on this nation.
 
The free for all was probably intended in the event of foreign occupation.

This is gonna be disagreed with but we cant allow thousands to die yearly to uphold the ideas and laws of 200+ years ago to the letter. Do you honestly expect that in 200+ they will follow our laws to the letter? Its self destructive, and this world is radically different and quite frankly our founding fathers dont have much of a damn clue what they are talking about in relation to the 21st century. Just like I dont have a damn clue what the situation will be in 200+ years. Our founding fathers would never propose some of their ideas if they were living today. Its a neat idea upholding the constitution to the letter and all their ideas but it just isnt always practical nor is it always smart.
 
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Just got done reading that OR Gov. John Kitzhaber and other politicians are going to propose 3 major laws to ban the ownership of assault rifles, ban any magazine with 10 or more rounds, and restrict concealed carry from school property. Seems like every politician with something to gain or no impediment for implementation is after some sort of gun restriction legislation. There's a reason I never trusted the guy since he tries to come off as someone who can relate to those in rural areas but in actuality, only listens to those in urban areas.

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/1834361?preferredArticleViewMode=single
 
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