Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

[Victarion]

The fallacy is your assumption that competent officers would blow away a delusional man who's armed with nothing more than a coffee cup.

 

[Super Kal]

well, anyways, i stopped by the SAXET San Antonio Gun Show. great people. great opportunity. able to pick up a Marlin 795 and a Mossberg 702, just the gun i was looking for, and extra cheap too. normally, a Mossberg 702 will go for $200+, and you gotta worry about limited allocation as well (which sucks BTW), but it was a great price. The Marlin 795 was an amazing find. didnt think i would find something there, and the fact that they have a 10/25/35 round magazine plus a 55 round and 70 round drum mag... not bad at all. even had enough left over to get a stun gun for the car.

i really dont see the problem people have with gun shows... they're not as crooked as people think. All firearms were checked at the door, and were secured so that they couldnt be fired. i honestly think they're more scared of the guns themselves rather than the gun owners. Also, gin shows arent always all about guns. yes, there were many tables devoted to guns, but there were also quite a few other tables there that werent devoted to guns- survival gear, dentistry tools, magnifying glasses, bumper stickers, wall decals, tactical gear, salt rock, toys, stun guns, good food, even Bibles- my wife picked up some very nice jewelry, and a very nice vintage ring to add to her collection.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

well, anyways, i stopped by the SAXET San Antonio Gun Show. great people. great opportunity. able to pick up a Marlin 795 and a Mossberg 702, just the gun i was looking for, and extra cheap too... even had enough left over to get a stun gun for the car.

i really dont see the problem people have with gun shows... they're not as crooked as people think. All firearms were checked at the door, and were secured so that they couldnt be fired. i honestly think they're more scared of the guns themselves rather than the gun owners.

It's something they don't understand, so of course they fear it.

 

[dnno1]

The fallacy is your assumption that competent officers would blow away a delusional man who's armed with nothing more than a coffee cup.

I never said nor assumed that. In fact, those same competent officers saw that it was not a priority to be at the scene right away since the suspect was not armed and was no longer within the facility (the daycare). They could then send out officers once their shift change was completed. Now had the suspect been armed, they might have foregone the shift change to attend to the call. This is much ado about nothing and has little to do with any need to arm child caregivers.

 

[dnno1]

well, anyways, i stopped by the SAXET San Antonio Gun Show. great people. great opportunity. able to pick up a Marlin 795 and a Mossberg 702, just the gun i was looking for, and extra cheap too. normally, a Mossberg 702 will go for $200+, and you gotta worry about limited allocation as well (which sucks BTW), but it was a great price. The Marlin 795 was an amazing find. didnt think i would find something there, and the fact that they have a 10/25/35 round magazine plus a 55 round and 70 round drum mag... not bad at all. even had enough left over to get a stun gun for the car.

i really dont see the problem people have with gun shows... they're not as crooked as people think. All firearms were checked at the door, and were secured so that they couldnt be fired. i honestly think they're more scared of the guns themselves rather than the gun owners. Also, gin shows arent always all about guns. yes, there were many tables devoted to guns, but there were also quite a few other tables there that werent devoted to guns- survival gear, dentistry tools, magnifying glasses, bumper stickers, wall decals, tactical gear, salt rock, toys, stun guns, good food, even Bibles- my wife picked up some very nice jewelry, and a very nice vintage ring to add to her collection.

It's something they don't understand, so of course they fear it.

It isn't the gun shows that people have a problem with, but rather the fact that private sales can and are made there without background checks. Not only are felons buying guns there, but they are also selling them there as well. Because of that, gun shows are the second leading source of crime guns in the United States.

 

[Super Kal]

well, much to your disappointment, most people there did do background checks. i did get my Marlin 795 without a background check, so a few might not ask for them, but most of the tables were making background checks, like the table at where I got my Mossberg 702. seeing how crowded it was, i was just glad they were able to get through it quickly without going through the phone

 

[Kable24]

well, anyways, i stopped by the SAXET San Antonio Gun Show. great people. great opportunity. able to pick up a Marlin 795 and a Mossberg 702, just the gun i was looking for, and extra cheap too. normally, a Mossberg 702 will go for $200+, and you gotta worry about limited allocation as well (which sucks BTW), but it was a great price. The Marlin 795 was an amazing find. didnt think i would find something there, and the fact that they have a 10/25/35 round magazine plus a 55 round and 70 round drum mag... not bad at all. even had enough left over to get a stun gun for the car.

i really dont see the problem people have with gun shows... they're not as crooked as people think. All firearms were checked at the door, and were secured so that they couldnt be fired. i honestly think they're more scared of the guns themselves rather than the gun owners. Also, gin shows arent always all about guns. yes, there were many tables devoted to guns, but there were also quite a few other tables there that werent devoted to guns- survival gear, dentistry tools, magnifying glasses, bumper stickers, wall decals, tactical gear, salt rock, toys, stun guns, good food, even Bibles- my wife picked up some very nice jewelry, and a very nice vintage ring to add to her collection.

Nice finds. You should pop over the the gun thread and post some pictures of them. At least there you won't be ridiculed for owning guns.

 

[The Question]

The fact that all of them don't do background checks is still a huge problem.

Also, I am concerned that a quick background check over the phone isn't thorough enough.

 

[Super Kal]

Nice finds. You should pop over the the gun thread and post some pictures of them. At least there you won't be ridiculed for owning guns.

we have a thread for guns? where?

 

[dnno1]

well, much to your disappointment, most people there did do background checks. i did get my Marlin 795 without a background check, so a few might not ask for them, but most of the tables were making background checks, like the table at where I got my Mossberg 702. seeing how crowded it was, i was just glad they were able to get through it quickly without going through the phone

The question that should be asked is whom did you buy the weapons from. Was it from a FFL dealer or a private sale? FFL's have to perform a background check while private sellers do not.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Nice finds. You should pop over the the gun thread and post some pictures of them. At least there you won't be ridiculed for owning guns.

I always just assumed that's what this thread was for, but going over to the general discussion board and there it is. Seems odd having 2 threads about guns, but I guess this one is more for the political aspect of guns.

 

[Kable24]

I always just assumed that's what this thread was for, but going over to the general discussion board and there it is. Seems odd having 2 threads about guns, but I guess this one is more for the political aspect of guns.

That's pretty much it. It's for people who enjoy buying, collecting and shooting guns and nothing to do with politics of it all.

 

[Hotwire]

well, much to your disappointment, most people there did do background checks. i did get my Marlin 795 without a background check, so a few might not ask for them, but most of the tables were making background checks, like the table at where I got my Mossberg 702. seeing how crowded it was, i was just glad they were able to get through it quickly without going through the phone

The problem I have with this is that you say "most" of them and not "all" of them. I firmly believe that ALL gun and ammo sales should require background checks.

 

[Super Kal]

im all for background chackes, but good luck in enforcing that

 

[The Question]

im all for background chackes, but good luck in enforcing that

It wouldn't be that hard. Any time a crime is committed with a gun, the police would check with the store the gun was bought from to see if a proper background check was performed. The gun store would be expected to keep documentation of the background check for such purposes. Also, law enforcement and government regulators would probably engage in randomly scheduled tests where a cop or an inspector poses as a buyer to assess if they're following regulations.

I mean, it's not perfect, but no crime can be enforced perfectly, and it's better than not doing it at all.

 

[Kable24]

It wouldn't be that hard. Any time a crime is committed with a gun, the police would check with the store the gun was bought from to see if a proper background check was performed. The gun store would be expected to keep documentation of the background check for such purposes. Also, law enforcement and government regulators would probably engage in randomly scheduled tests where a cop or an inspector poses as a buyer to assess if they're following regulations.

I mean, it's not perfect, but no crime can be enforced perfectly, and it's better than not doing it at all.

The majority of gun crimes are done by illegally obtained guns, usually stolen. Do you think criminals selling their illegal guns is going to go to an FFL dealer to have a background check done?

Actually, the ATF can do spot inspections on any gun shop that holds an FFL license.

 

[The Question]

The majority of gun crimes are done by illegally obtained guns, usually stolen.

Would you please cite the source of that data? I've heard otherwise in the past, so I'd like to see where you heard that from.


Also, I know what I just wrote can read as being snide, but I'm honestly asking for any statistics you have on it. I've been researching online and I've had a really hard time finding any conclusive statistics about that from unbiased sources.

 

[dnno1]

The majority of gun crimes are done by illegally obtained guns, usually stolen. Do you think criminals selling their illegal guns is going to go to an FFL dealer to have a background check done?

Actually, the ATF can do spot inspections on any gun shop that holds an FFL license.

According to the ATF, 60% of guns used in crimes can be traced to FFL dealers. It may be a small number (about 1.2% of all FFL's) but most of the crime guns are coming from them. They report the guns as missing and sell them off the books to criminals. Guns also get to criminals legally through a straw sale or through a private purchase (those are not illegal to do). Let me assure you. Almost all guns used in crimes are purchased legally. That was presented in a report back in 2000.

 

[dnno1]

im all for background chackes, but good luck in enforcing that

Seems to work pretty well with credit cards and air ports.

 

[Victarion]

Seems to work pretty well with credit cards and air ports.

People place more value on money and are still spooked by the possibility of another hijacking; that's probably why background checks work so well in those areas.

Of course, I've never been to a gun shop where there wasn't a background check. I went to get a 9MM a couple of months ago; the shop was pretty packed. No one got their guns without filling out all the necessary paperwork. So perhaps you are right about the effectiveness of background checks.

 

[NickNitro]

As a gun owner Ill have to put my two cents in just for a quick moment.

I believe a thorough background check should have to be administered to anyone buying a weapon. That being said, I bought mine from someone, not a company. It is nearly impossible to enforce such laws. Its similar to drugs, sure weed is illegal but how easy it is for people to get it? Sure these measures would HELP but itll never be a cure.

If you really want buckle down, make it illegal for ANYONE to sell a weapon if they are not a licensed vendor. That means no gun trade shows, none of that kind of back alley trading. Then when that's implemented enforce all the regulations you want. But until you stop allowing gun trading to happen on the streets, anyone will be able to acquire a firearm.

 

[Super Kal]

that's actually exactly how i feel, NickNitro

 

[The Question]

As a gun owner Ill have to put my two cents in just for a quick moment.

I believe a thorough background check should have to be administered to anyone buying a weapon. That being said, I bought mine from someone, not a company. It is nearly impossible to enforce such laws. Its similar to drugs, sure weed is illegal but how easy it is for people to get it? Sure these measures would HELP but itll never be a cure.

If you really want buckle down, make it illegal for ANYONE to sell a weapon if they are not a licensed vendor. That means no gun trade shows, none of that kind of back alley trading. Then when that's implemented enforce all the regulations you want. But until you stop allowing gun trading to happen on the streets, anyone will be able to acquire a firearm.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, and some people may take issue with this, I think that there has to be a universally enforced federal standard. The problem with leaving the issue of gun control up to the states is that people from states with strict gun laws just go to the next state over with less severe ones and then carry the guns back across state lines. It's a huge problem in Western Massachusetts.

 

[Aesculapius]

The notion that only a person with a badge or military uniform is the only type of person who has the competence, goodwill and/or right to defend themselves and/or others is both foolish and naive, as is the notion that people who have no regard for the law will do nothing less than take advantage of a lack of guns in the hands of law abiding citizens, hell, they already do.

 

[Hotwire]

Here's an idea, a gun owner's license. It gets renewed every year and you have to go through an extensive background check to get it an renew it. In order to legally purchase a gun, you have to provide it to the seller and they must submit a receipt to the feds for registration.

Bottom line, the only way to enforce background checks is to register all guns. Then the sales can be tracked and any gun that changes hands with no record of a background check lands the seller and buyer in prison for 10 years.