Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[KalMart]

What I find annoying is when people cry about using Chicago in a comparison...where at least the demographics are similar, but say absolutely nothing when the US is constantly compared to other countries with not even a 3rd of the population, and totally different demographics....to make their argument. Can the double standard and I might actually find the argument compelling...

BTW, I agree with the registration of all online and gun show sales....and I actually go a step further, I think all sales of ammunition and guns should be banned from the internet. So, actually, I wasn't making any argument, I simply found the comparison interesting, as I stated...

Japan has essentially no gun ownership and has less gun crime than the US.....Switzerland has a higher per capita gun ownership, and less gun crime than the US.

 

[SV Fan]

Actually it is a pro-gun message, and it actually is stating that as a well, duh...whatever people are thinking of "massive gun laws" they aren't working....they simply use the conclusion as an eye roll....as I said quite obvious to me.

Problem is they are cherry picking Chicago, why not pick a city like New Orleans and New York, all of a sudden the arguments get flipped(both gun control laws and weather). I think their point about weather leading to more murders is a much better statement(in regards to how faulty one could interpret statistics) then what they actually trying to push(about gun laws).

In general if I was doing a survey about gun control laws I would try and have like 10-20 cities that fall in each category(high control control laws vs low gun control laws) and see how they compare

 

[KalMart]

Problem is that you really can't substantially link crime statistics to the control of legal sales of firearms...there is no absolute correlation that someone can point to as accurate and universal. You also really can't say with any rational certainty that removing the gun from the long chain of events and causes leading to gun crimes or crime in general would have led to a crime not happening. It's an unfortunate dilemma of legal gun purchase/ownership not making a difference, but the only place that government can somehow grasp and make changes to.

Another thing is the proposed 'mental health check' for purchase. Firstly, not all mental illness is diagnosed/treated or recorded. Secondly, someone doesn't have to be clinically mentally ill to just lose sensibility and control in an extreme situation....to make a horribly bad mistake or act out in a fit of rage. It can happen to anyone, whether they have a medical mental history or not. Thirdly, they'd have to establish some sort of objective way of gauging what really is clinically mentally ill, and what is almost but not quite, or what is open to opinion or second opinions, the validity of these 'records', etc. Does ADD or dyslexia count? Will they look up your history of therapy?

There's a lot of room for interpretation there, so if it came down to it, the qualifications for mental illness, as deemed nationally recognizable, would probably have to be pretty high as to leave 'no doubt'. And even then, there are a lot of people I've known/dated/worked with that may not have any official medical history of mental illness/diagnosis/treatment...but are in my opinion certifiably bat***** nuts and even potentially dangerously so on a social level. Some of which I'd never trust around firearms....much less alcohol or automobiles. But legally, they're as entitles to them as anyone else who you'd think was completely stable. Ultimately, more needs to be targeted towards the roots of crime in society at large.

 

[SV Fan]

Problem is that you really can't substantially link crime statistics to the control of legal sales of firearms...there is no absolute correlation that someone can point to as accurate and universal.

Actually just looking at the worst cities you can sort of pinpoint a common pattern, it's generally a problem in poor urban areas in medium size to big cites. Why some cities are worse then others I can't say(you find it in both high gun control and low gun control places). I guess shame on both sides of the argument who don't want to point out the obvious

Despite what those on the gun control side want you to believe Chicago is not the worst city in the US for Gun violence due to there strict guns laws(although they generally seem to squeak into the top 10 every year)

 

[KalMart]

Actually just looking at the worst cities you can sort of pinpoint a common pattern, it's generally a problem in poor urban areas in medium size to big cites. Why some cities are worse then others I can't say(you find it in both high gun control and low gun control places). I guess shame on both sides of the argument who don't want to point out the obvious

Yes...if we're talking about crime as a whole, with its many facets and roots. Also, you're likely to find that any substantial changes that have ever happened in crime levels hasn't been primarily linked to changes in gun laws either, with all else being equal. What's obvious (at least to some) but overlooked by many is that while there are both sides to the legal gun purchase/ownership 'issue', it's almost a non-issue itself in comparison to the much bigger and deeper root causes to crime...many of which are exacerbated in big cities.

I guess to some, a placebo is 'better than nothing'....but not if people are actually willing to settle for perceived stopgaps and keep the bigger issues as being too big or lofty to rectify. And as we mentioned, when all's said and done, it just boils down to a liberal vs. conservative issue...rather than an actual 'help the future of our nation' issue.

 

[SV Fan]

I guess to some, a placebo is 'better than nothing'.

I don't think tougher gun laws is a "placebo", but I am not naive enough to believe tougher gun laws will make a dramatic decrease in gun violence, I just believe they can take a small bite(like 1-2% if lucky which amount to like 500 less deaths a year) out of crime and that's a start

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I don't think tougher gun laws is a "placebo", but I am not naive enough to believe tougher gun laws will make a dramatic decrease in gun violence, I just believe they can take a small bite(like 1-2% if lucky which amount to like 500 less deaths a year) out of crime and that's a start

A key difference, which CBS News pointed out last year, was that New York and Chicago have varying ways in which they prosecute illegal weapon possessions. In New York, they will convict in just about every case and sentence with jail time. In Chicago, they very rarely convict anyone on the illegal weapon charge and typically just let them off with probation or nothing at all. It's all a matter of enforcing the laws already on the books and those that are a danger to society will likely not be committing more crimes.

 

[KalMart]

I don't think tougher gun laws is a "placebo", but I am not naive enough to believe tougher gun laws will make a dramatic decrease in gun violence, I just believe they can take a small bite(like 1-2% if lucky which amount to like 500 less deaths a year) out of crime and that's a start

Placebo is being pretty generous, actually...the biggest problem is in seeing it as some sort of 'achievement' while bigger changes and missions are put on relative hold, or looked at as 'too big' compared to these little bites. They need to go after bigger bites in bigger arenas...everyone does. For every little tightening on magazine capacity, or muzzle breaks, or folding stocks, waiting periods etc., you have states cutting funding on education and law enforcement, greater disparities in wealth, and more explicit entertainment which continue to contribute to much more violence and deaths than the supposed saved ones from these little gun laws. Anti-gunners need to recognize this insignificance of this and come up with bigger and better plans, and pro-gunners need to actually encourage and assist that.

Again, you can't rationally say it will take any calculable 'bite', because you can't prove that a chain of events that never happened was specifically stopped from developing by toughening gun sale laws. It's all based, understandably, on outrage over gun violence, but it's assuming way too much. The only thing we can say for certainty about these proposed gun laws is that it will make those in favor of them feel better that they got passed.

 

[Hotwire]

A key difference, which CBS News pointed out last year, was that New York and Chicago have varying ways in which they prosecute illegal weapon possessions. In New York, they will convict in just about every case and sentence with jail time. In Chicago, they very rarely convict anyone on the illegal weapon charge and typically just let them off with probation or nothing at all. It's all a matter of enforcing the laws already on the books and those that are a danger to society will likely not be committing more crimes.

Enforcement is always key. That's why I've suggested several times, make possessing an illegal gun a federal offence punished by a minimum of 5-10 years in federal prison. That would standardize the enforcement and get the message out that we're not ****ing around.

 

[OutRiddled]

The best gun control is to disarm governments:

After studying over 8,000 reports of government-caused deaths, Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Democide is a term revived and redefined by the political scientist R. J. Rummel as "the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide and mass murder."

DISARM GOVERNMENTS!

 

[The Overlord]

Japan has essentially no gun ownership and has less gun crime than the US.....Switzerland has a higher per capita gun ownership, and less gun crime than the US.

I think the combination of the US having a lot of guns and a lot social problems that are not as prevalent in other First World Countries is the big problem.

It might be good study why the US has a higher crime rate then say Canada.

 

[KalMart]

I think the combination of the US having a lot of guns and a lot social problems that are not as prevalent in other First World Countries is the big problem.

It might be good study why the US has a higher crime rate then say Canada.

It goes so deep than just addressing guns, and the legal purchase/ownership of them at that, is hardly a drop in the ocean.

Enforcement is always key. That's why I've suggested several times, make possessing an illegal gun a federal offence punished by a minimum of 5-10 years in federal prison. That would standardize the enforcement and get the message out that we're not ****ing around.

I think it should be 20-30 at least for first offense, life imprisonment/death penalty for the second.

 

[Kelly]

Japan has essentially no gun ownership and has less gun crime than the US.....Switzerland has a higher per capita gun ownership, and less gun crime than the US.

But again, as far as cultures, demographics, etc....that is comparing apples to oranges to the greatest degree.

 

[Kelly]

Problem is they are cherry picking Chicago, why not pick a city like New Orleans and New York, all of a sudden the arguments get flipped(both gun control laws and weather). I think their point about weather leading to more murders is a much better statement(in regards to how faulty one could interpret statistics) then what they actually trying to push(about gun laws).

In general if I was doing a survey about gun control laws I would try and have like 10-20 cities that fall in each category(high control control laws vs low gun control laws) and see how they compare

No they didn't, they found the city that was closest to the demographics of Houston, and they compared them....not rocket science.

 

[Kelly]

As with ANYTHING, if there is no accountability, does not matter how many laws are written, if they are not enforced properly and totally, then the law is invalid. I would venture to say that the majority, and actually I would say 100% on here, so including myself....have no clue of all the state and federal gun laws ALREADY ON THE BOOKS, BUT NOT ENFORCED....I would veturne to say that 100% of our Congress fighting and writing the laws have no clue either.

It is such a ridiculous argument right now that it is annoying to even debate it.

 

[The Overlord]

It goes so deep than just addressing guns, and the legal purchase/ownership of them at that, is hardly a drop in the ocean.
.

Sure, you have to address several problems at once, prevalence of guns is part of the problem, its not the only part, but still is part of the problem.

Frankly way too many people don't want to address any part of the problem and just hope it goes away.

Canadians play the same video games and watch the same movies Americans do and yet there is far less of problem with gun violence in Canada then America, so it seems to me this focus on violent movies and video games is a smoke screen.

 

[KalMart]

But again, as far as cultures, demographics, etc....that is comparing apples to oranges to the greatest degree.

Absolutely, which pretty much goes to show that you can't just compare another nation and say 'do it like them'...because they're all different.

 

[KalMart]

Sure, you have to address several problems at once, prevalence of guns is part of the problem, its not the only part, but still is part of the problem.

It's part of the problem along the way...but just addressing 'it' won't do anything to the problem. It's just a political angle when it comes down to it.

Frankly way too many people don't want to address any part of the problem and just hope it goes away.

Canadians play the same video games and watch the same movies Americans do and yet there is far less of problem with gun violence in Canada then America, so it seems to me this focus on violent movies and video games is a smoke screen.

Again, the difference doesn't just lay in gun laws, and you can't point to a time that Canada was more 'barbaric' and was turned around to become more peaceful primarily by gun laws. Why is crime as a whole in Canada different? We need to look deeper. And no, there is no 'focus' on other factors because no-one's focused on it...they're putting too much on these placebo gun laws. Let's see some actual focus, time, and effort put into that first to see if it's a 'smoke screen' or not. Then once those bigger and better plans come about, if gun laws are part of it, all the better. You can't just settle for the little ineffective things....which do little more than create political impasses anyway.

 

[SV Fan]

Again, the difference doesn't just lay in gun laws, and you can't point to a time that Canada was more 'barbaric' and was turned around to become more peaceful primarily by gun laws. Why is crime as a whole in Canada different? We need to look deeper. And no, there is no 'focus' on other factors because no-one's focused on it...they're putting too much on these placebo gun laws. Let's see some actual focus, time, and effort put into that first to see if it's a 'smoke screen' or not. Then once those bigger and better plans come about, if gun laws are part of it, all the better. You can't just settle for the little ineffective things....which do little more than create political impasses anyway.

My guess would be(looking at a homicide by country chart) is countries that have less poverty areas generally have less gun violence. Canada on a whole does more to help it's poorer citizens, while on the flip side you look at poor Countries in the world the US looks good in comparison. The one anomaly to my theory would be China, which has a very low gun crime rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Country_subdivisions

 

[Kelly]

My guess would be(looking at a homicide by country chart) is countries that have less poverty areas generally have less gun violence. Canada on a whole does more to help it's poorer citizens, while on the flip side you look at poor Countries in the world the US looks good in comparison. The one anomaly to my theory would be China, which has a very low gun crime rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Country_subdivisions

Because the murders done by the government are not counted in their homicide rate...

 

[KalMart]

My guess would be(looking at a homicide by country chart) is countries that have less poverty areas generally have less gun violence. Canada on a whole does more to help it's poorer citizens, while on the flip side you look at poor Countries in the world the US looks good in comparison. The one anomaly to my theory would be China, which has a very low gun crime rate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#Country_subdivisions

Word is they have a better health plan, too.

 

[KalMart]

Because the murders done by the government are not counted in their homicide rate...

Plus, you get kids to start working slave-labor at age 7, then you keep'em too busy and tired to commit as much crime as they grow older.

 

[SV Fan]

Because the murders done by the government are not counted in their homicide rate...

lol yeah I don't think China is a model how the US should try run it's country in most regards including Gun Control

Word is they have a better health plan, too.

I think that falls under taking care of your poor

 

[KalMart]

lol yeah I don't think China is a model how the US should try run it's country in most regards including Gun Control



I think that falls under taking care of your poor

They have a nicer word for poor up there, don't they? Something French or what have you.

So do we, for that matter. I think the word is 'Canadian'.

 

[The Overlord]

They have a nicer word for poor up there, don't they? Something French or what have you.

So do we, for that matter. I think the word is 'Canadian'.

Funny, but Canada does have a comparable standard of living to America, better is some areas, though not all. The Canadian economy is seen as doing better then the US one, at least at the moment.

Really why does Canada have less gun violence, should we dismiss factors as less of a gap between rich and poor, less prevalence of guns and possibly a better mental health system? If you want to have the same level of gun prevalence in the US and deal with the issue of gun violence, you need to deal with those other two factories and those are going to costly as well.