Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[SV Fan]

The Constitution says rights are inherently granted by humanity's Creator, not any form of government.

 

[dnno1]

It depends on what issues you're addressing at a specific time. The Constitution says rights are inherently granted by humanity's Creator, not any form of government. The job of legal officials is solely to support and defend those rights, not arbitrarily granting or restricting.

I don't see where this depends. Your rights go as far as it doesn't violate another person's rights. You are free to own a car, but if you want to drive it on a public road where there is a risk of an accident and injury to people and property, you become subject to regulations ensuring that you can drive and have insurance. The same thing goes for a gun. That's what the government's job is for.

 

[Joshua_B]

As already said, as long as your rights don't infringe upon anyone else's, then it works. But, there's so much grey area. Your right to own a gun should never infringe upon my right to live. There are clearly problems when that does happen. You just simplified an overly complicated situation. It doesn't work that way.

What about if you were a serial killer, holding an innocent person at gunpoint? Does your right to live supersede my responsibility to shoot you, if it means saving that victim's life?

PS. Legal officials then shouldn't restrict anyone from marrying the person of their choosing (as long as they are of legal age). So restricting gay marriage would be unconstitutional according to your statement. However, given your posting history, I would say you are entirely for restricting certain people's rights because their beliefs don't match up with yours. Funny how that works

Everyone has free will, but no one has an inherent right to have their choices or behaviors endorsed by the government. Traditional marriage isn't supported because people believe in it, but because its been proven as objectively better than divorce, adultery, single parenthood, or homosexuality, beyond a reasonable doubt. Men and women are not interchangeable.

 

[Feenix]

Everyone has free will, but no one has an inherent right to have their choices or behaviors endorsed by the government. Traditional marriage isn't supported because people believe in it, but because its been proven as objectively better than divorce, adultery, single parenthood, or homosexuality, beyond a reasonable doubt. Men and women are not interchangeable.

This is the biggest pile of bull**** I have ever read. For shame.

And I agree with dnno1. When your right to do something has the potential to infringe on someone else's rights, your rights needs to be regulated. Otherwise, it's anarchy.

 

[wiegeabo]

Everyone has free will, but no one has an inherent right to have their choices or behaviors endorsed by the government. Traditional marriage isn't supported because people believe in it, but because its been proven as objectively better than divorce, adultery, single parenthood, or homosexuality, beyond a reasonable doubt. Men and women are not interchangeable.

 

[Pink Ranger]

The last bit of discussion makes me understand why organizations like Pink Pistols exist.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It depends on what issues you're addressing at a specific time. The Constitution says rights are inherently granted by humanity's Creator, not any form of government.

Actually God, or any form of deity for that matter, is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. As a matter in fact, it specifically states "We the people" meaning that the rights granted in the Constitution come from the people as a nation.

 

[Joshua_B]

Actually God, or any form of deity for that matter, is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. As a matter in fact, it specifically states "We the people" meaning that the rights granted in the Constitution come from the people as a nation.

My apologies; I was referring to the Declaration of Independence. I have so many discussions about both, that its easy to be thinking of one while using the other's name.

 

[hippie_hunter]

My apologies; I was referring to the Declaration of Independence. I have so many discussions about both, that its easy to be thinking of one while using the other's name.

Christian principles without a doubt have had major influences on American political thought, but it is far from the only ones. Classical liberalism, the ideology in which our rights and freedoms are based off of, is actually quite secular in nature.

 

[Joshua_B]

Christian principles without a doubt have had major influences on American political thought, but it is far from the only ones. Classical liberalism, the ideology in which our rights and freedoms are based off of, is actually quite secular in nature.

I'm well aware of that, but one of my main points has been that Christianity was the most dominant among all the Founders' beliefs, and they deliberately modeled most (if not all) of our original laws on the Ten Commandments.

 

[Anubis]

Really? Cuz I'm pretty sure the Ten Commandments don't say anything about religious freedom.

 

[SV Fan]

they deliberately modeled most (if not all) of our original laws on the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments

LAW

You must not kill.
You must not steal.

Not LAW

You shall have no other Gods but me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Respect your father and mother.
You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

Sort of LAW

You must not commit adultery. (when it comes to divorce settlements, the act of adultery itself is not law, especially if it refers to single people)
You must not give false evidence against your neighbour. (technically this can get you legally in trouble if you lie under oath)

 

[Anubis]

All of which are basic laws of any society(The ones that actually are laws and kinda law that is)....predating even the Jewish scriptures this whole thing even came from.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You must not kill.
You must not steal.

Actually, those concepts were around before the Ten Commandments. Hammurabi's Code which dealt with murder and thievery was written hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments. Christianity cannot claim basic legal concepts that every society developed independent of Judeo-Christian values well before Judaism existed.

 

[SV Fan]

Actually, those concepts were around before the Ten Commandments. Hammurabi's Code which dealt with murder and thievery was written hundreds of years before the Ten Commandments. Christianity cannot claim basic legal concepts that every society developed independent of Judeo-Christian values well before Judaism existed.

It could also be pointed out it pretty scary thinking the only thing stopping some people from doing them is because they needed a book to tell them not to. lol

 

[dnno1]

I'm well aware of that, but one of my main points has been that Christianity was the most dominant among all the Founders' beliefs, and they deliberately modeled most (if not all) of our original laws on the Ten Commandments.

Yeah, pagnism, kabalism, and satanism are banned under the Ten Commandments.

 

[Kelly]

Sooo, back to gun control....

Very interesting commercial that has been banned as a Super Bowl ad by the NFL.

 

[SV Fan]

Very interesting commercial that has been banned as a Super Bowl ad by the NFL.

I call BS that this 3 and a half minute "commercial" was banned. You know how much that would cost, now they probably had a condensed 30 second version but why not show that?

 

[Thundercrack85]

The actual commercial is only one minute long...

 

[SV Fan]

So looks like they are talking in the congress about extending the plastic gun ban. Should be interesting to see how far the gun rights types will push this. NRA currently has no comment on the issue.

On a sidenote it was Reagan who originally signed this bill into law, so how many conservatives will go against their so called god

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-11/news/mn-510_1_plastic-guns

President Reagan signed a bill banning the manufacture, sale or possession of plastic guns or any other firearms that can elude detection. Although such guns are not currently on the market, experts estimate they could be developed shortly, but the ability to detect such a device is years away. The bill covers any firearm that cannot be detected by a walk-through metal detector, but it exempts any gun that has been certified by the Pentagon or the Central Intelligence Agency. During congressional hearings on the measure, considerable concern was expressed about the problems plastic guns would create for security checkpoints in airports, courthouses and prisons.

 

[Joshua_B]

Yeah, paganism, kabalism, and satanism are banned under the Ten Commandments.

From a spiritual perspective, yes, because such practices take people away from God. However, banning any faith outright (including Christianity) would be a violation of the First Amendment. There's no prohibition in that document about citizens believing and worshiping as they desire, but Congress was explicitly forbidden from making any of them mandatory regarding the law. The Founders wanted a society where everyone could practice what they believed both publicly and privately without fear; the only restrictions were set for reasons of individual and national safety.

 

[dnno1]

From a spiritual perspective, yes, because such practices take people away from God. However, banning any faith outright (including Christianity) would be a violation of the First Amendment. There's no prohibition in that document about citizens believing and worshiping as they desire, but Congress was explicitly forbidden from making any of them mandatory regarding the law. The Founders wanted a society where everyone could practice what they believed both publicly and privately without fear; the only restrictions were set for reasons of individual and national safety.

Actually it was you who said that Christianity was the most dominant of the founder's beliefs and they deliberately modeled the Constitution on the Ten Commandments. The truth of the matter is that the founding fathers were deists (i.e. most of them believed that God did not did not function in the natural world in any way), none of the precepts of the Constitution are directly related to the Ten Commandments (no honoring the Lord's day, no honoring of your father and mother, no reference to coveting, et. al.), nor is there any direct reference to God in the US Constitution. If they were truly inspired by Christianity, then that would be the official religion (since no true Christian would endorse any other religious belief as acceptable). I think you are trying to spin this into something else when in actuality it isn't.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Actually it was you who said that Christianity was the most dominant of the founder's beliefs and they deliberately modeled the Constitution on the Ten Commandments. The truth of the matter is that the founding fathers were deists (i.e. most of them believed that God did not did not function in the natural world in any way), none of the precepts of the Constitution are directly related to the Ten Commandments (no honoring the Lord's day, no honoring of your father and mother, no reference to coveting, et. al.), nor is there any direct reference to God in the US Constitution. If they were truly inspired by Christianity, then that would be the official religion (since no true Christian would endorse any other religious belief as acceptable). I think you are trying to spin this into something else when in actuality it isn't.

While Christianity isn't the major ideological source the way Joshua absurdly makes it out to be, you're mitigating Christian influences far too much. Even though they were deists, most of the Founding Fathers were still devout Christians and their views on Christianity developed their views on how American public life should be. Christianity can be a major inspiration of the Founding Fathers without there being an official state religion.

Benjamin Franklin was pretty steadfast in his Puritan views and was very supportive of religious sects that promoted good works to their followers. And in his writings he constantly promoted the Protestant work ethic and Puritan values such as egalitarianism, education, industry, thrift, honesty, temperance, charity and community spirit. Thomas Jefferson said that the teachings of Jesus Christ were perfect and he often allowed church services to be conducted within government buildings which he often attended himself. George Washington and John Adams would often call for days of thanksgiving and prayer.

People who preach this incredibly strict wall of separation between government and all religious practices have it just as wrong as the people who act as if we're some kind of theocratic Christian nation. When I've read up on the Founding Fathers, I've concluded that the Founding Fathers envisioned a secular government of a devout Christian society with tolerance to most faiths (atheists excluded). As long as all Christian faiths were treated equally, no one was forced to practice against their will, used reason and rationality, and the government was no in a corrupting alliance with the clergy, the Founding Fathers were perfectly fine with Christian influences in American politics.

So even though there is no reference to the Ten Commandments in the US Constitution, I highly doubt that they would be opposed to a public display of the Ten Commandments. I highly doubt that the Founding Fathers would be opposed of public displays of Christmas celebrations in places like schools and town halls. And honestly, I think they would be rather annoyed by how some on the left act in regards to the Culture War.

And on a side note, I'm an atheist. So it's not like I have some motive or incentive to actually promote Christian values in American society. But the fact is that the Founding Fathers really aren't as secularist as some people make them out to be.

 

[Joshua_B]

Actually it was you who said that Christianity was the most dominant of the founder's beliefs and they deliberately modeled the Constitution on the Ten Commandments. The truth of the matter is that the founding fathers were deists (i.e. most of them believed that God did not did not function in the natural world in any way), none of the precepts of the Constitution are directly related to the Ten Commandments (no honoring the Lord's day, no honoring of your father and mother, no reference to coveting, et. al.), nor is there any direct reference to God in the US Constitution. If they were truly inspired by Christianity, then that would be the official religion (since no true Christian would endorse any other religious belief as acceptable). I think you are trying to spin this into something else when in actuality it isn't.

Here's some examples of how our laws are modeled after the Ten Commandments...

1) "Do not steal." Pretty much self-explanatory.

2) "Do not murder". That encompasses a whole section of our criminal laws.

3) "Do not commit adultery". Over 20 states still have laws against it, though punishments vary.

4) "Do not give false testimony". Again, we have strict laws against perjury.

5) "Do not covet your neighbor's house, wife, property, etc." This relates directly to murder, adultery, and theft, since all are the result of a selfish heart.

 

[moviedoors]

Here's some examples of how our laws are modeled after the Ten Commandments...

1) "Do not steal." Pretty much self-explanatory.

2) "Do not murder". That encompasses a whole section of our criminal laws.

3) "Do not commit adultery". Over 20 states still have laws against it, though punishments vary.

4) "Do not give false testimony". Again, we have strict laws against perjury.

5) "Do not covet your neighbor's house, wife, property, etc." This relates directly to murder, adultery, and theft, since all are the result of a selfish heart.

None of these ideas originated with the 10 commandments and it irks me the way people try to take credit for them originating with their ideology.