Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[hippie_hunter]

This is true, but it is not implied to mean that because there were Christians who drafted the document that the Constitution of the United States had Christian influence nor was it divinely inspired.

The ideology of the Founding Fathers was influenced by Protestant Christianity. They just knew how to apply it so that EVERYONE was treated equally. You know...the way Jesus actually intended.

That would be akin to someone saying that, I being a Roman Catholic, that the design I made for my kitchen 7 years ago was Christian inspired, when it wasn't. One doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other (unless I had placed crosses or other religious symbols in my kitchen).

That's a terrible comparison.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The ideology of the Founding Fathers was influenced by Protestant Christianity. They just knew how to apply it so that EVERYONE was treated equally. You know...the way Jesus actually intended.

Well everyone, except blacks, Hispanics, women, children, the poor, etc.

They were very much products of their time, for better or worse.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well everyone, except blacks, Hispanics, women, children, the poor, etc.

There was actually a growing movement within the Founding Fathers to have slavery die out. Both Washington and Jefferson weren't fond of slavery despite owning slaves. Some like John Adams absolutely hated it. And others like Benjamin Franklin were straight up abolitionists. As a matter in fact, the reason why they didn't abolish slavery straight up in the Constitution was because they knew that it would rip the country apart and thus tried to set it up to where it would eventually die out like abolishing the slave trade.

Bringing up Hispanics is just absolutely pointless when you consider that the Hispanic population in the United States at that time was pretty much zero.

And the Founding Fathers were all about charity and community for the poor. The welfare state at the time were developed at the local levels, not the national level. But they were concerned about the poor as well.

 

[SV Fan]

And the Founding Fathers were all about charity and community for the poor. The welfare state at the time were developed at the local levels, not the national level. But they were concerned about the poor as well.

I think it's much easier for small communities to have a more "communal" environment to live in

 

[Kelly]

I have always believed that the reason we have churches in pretty much every neighborhood, is that that church and its members are supposed to take care of that neighborhood. I think that is one of the fundamental break downs of organized religion today. It's more about the "size" of the church, rather than the "size" of the ministry and service to people.

 

[Joshua_B]

The ideology of the Founding Fathers was influenced by Protestant Christianity. They just knew how to apply it so that EVERYONE was treated equally. You know...the way Jesus actually intended.

Jesus didn't treat everyone equally at all. He loved everyone, but He also didn't stand for continued deliberate sin. He called out the Pharisees on their hypocrisy, rebuked Peter by calling him Satan, and told the woman caught in adultery to "go, and sin no more". Sometimes, it takes more love to oppose a certain behavior, instead of supporting it to avoid confrontation.

 

[moviedoors]

Jesus didn't treat everyone equally at all. He loved everyone, but He also didn't stand for continued deliberate sin. He called out the Pharisees on their hypocrisy, rebuked Peter by calling him Satan, and told the woman caught in adultery to "go, and sin no more". Sometimes, it takes more love to oppose a certain behavior, instead of supporting it to avoid confrontation.

Ah, so you vehemently oppose gay rights because you just love them so damn much. Riiiiight.

 

[SV Fan]

I have always believed that the reason we have churches in pretty much every neighborhood, is that that church and its members are supposed to take care of that neighborhood. I think that is one of the fundamental break downs of organized religion today. It's more about the "size" of the church, rather than the "size" of the ministry and service to people.

If you look at the rise of christianity in the early centuries, one thing that really gained them alot of popularity was christianity went out of it's way to provide free health care and a meal for poorer people

 

[Joshua_B]

Ah, so you vehemently oppose gay rights because you just love them so damn much. Riiiiight.

I oppose homosexuality because its destructive in many ways for all involved, and it goes against God's design just like arbitrary divorce, rape, or adultery. Staunchly disagreeing with someone's behavior doesn't automatically mean you hate them as a person.

 

[Greens]

I oppose homosexuality because its destructive in many ways for all involved.

Problem is, a lot of the ways you find homosexuality to be destructive can be disproved.

 

[Joshua_B]

Problem is, a lot of the ways you find homosexuality to be destructive can be disproved.

Send me a PM with examples if you like; I'd rather stay on topic in here.

 

[Greens]

Send me a PM with examples if you like; I'd rather stay on topic in here.

No, that's okay. I just find it interesting how people like you stay willfully ignorant on issues like homosexuality.

Please continue discussing the second amendment.

 

[Kelly]

No, that's okay. I just find it interesting how people like you stay willfully ignorant on issues like homosexuality.

Please continue discussing the second amendment.

And yet he just gave you an opportunity to enlighten him and you respond with this post?

You just showed that your desire isn't to teach it is only to call out ignorance..that is worth nothing in a discussion...because the motive behind it weakens the message.

 

[Greens]

I understand and I probably shouldn't have made that post.

I don't mind enlightening people but I honestly don't believe I can do anything to change his mind. That's why I didn't accept his invitation.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Why is everyone discussing homosexuality and spirituality in the Second Amendment thread? Seems like the discussion got totally sidetracked into attacking religion.

 

[Kelly]

Why is everyone discussing homosexuality and spirituality in the Second Amendment thread? Seems like the discussion got totally sidetracked into attacking religion.

Well, I think this thread has just joined the ranks of almost every thread in the Political Forum that at least once has gone down this road....lol You get a mixture of certain people in a thread, and that is exactly what will happen. It's inevitable....

 

[dnno1]

The ideology of the Founding Fathers was influenced by Protestant Christianity. They just knew how to apply it so that EVERYONE was treated equally. You know...the way Jesus actually intended.

I could have sworn that it was influenced by the Enlightenment period. Anyway, the fact that there is no reference to God or any Christian beliefs in the Constitutions makes it very difficult to prove that is was inspired by the same, otherwise it would have established Sunday as a holy day, made referece to God within the body of the document.

That's a terrible comparison.

However outlandish you might think my comparison may be, it definitely is a direct comparison. Had I designed my kitchen in the shape of a cross or with the bible as the centerpiece, they certainly one could say that my design had Christian influence or was inspired by God or the life of Jesus Christ, but in truth, I didn't do any of those things so (as I have indicated above) it is difficult to prove that there was any Christian influence (even implied) in its design. Now, to tie this back to the subject of this thread, had the Constitution truly been inspired by Christianity, there would have been no Second Amendment as we know it now, since Christ wanted people to love their enemies and would not have endorsed the arming of citizens.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Actually, I don't really have an issue with their Christian background somewhat influencing the document (for better or worse). I think that's inevitable. Especially in those days, when education and religion went hand in glove (and to a lesser extent government). I mean hell, hardcore atheist though I may be, my Christian background has shaped a lot of my views.

But there is such a thing as over exaggerating that influence. A lot of this stuff is common sense, it has nothing to do with religion.

 

[Joshua_B]

Why is everyone discussing homosexuality and spirituality in the Second Amendment thread? Seems like the discussion got totally sidetracked into attacking religion.

Sadly, vicious insults are often many people's first reaction to those who stand against political correctness...especially if such rebels are Christians. Many have this warped idea that its impossible for people who believe the Bible to remain rational or intelligent, which is blatantly false.

Often, the same hypocritical accusers favor removing all firearms from the public square. They believe in the "only government can save us" mentality, and reject all possibility of individual citizens behaving responsibly with a gun. Ben Shapiro did something truly courageous in a debate on gun control with Piers Morgan, where he described the host's anti-gun stance as "standing on the graves of the children at Sandy Hook".

In the end, the answer to this is very simple. Many in the government keep insisting they should have the final word on what citizens need to protect themselves, but the real issue is what the Amendment actually says. I understand some limits are needed for mental illness or criminal activity, but most in the political arena take it way too far. Under the Constitution, all legal citizens have the inherent right to own whatever firearms they personally deem necessary to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their property. Its not Uncle Sam's job to make that decision, but ours.

 

[SV Fan]

Under the Constitution, all legal citizens have the inherent right to own whatever firearms they personally deem necessary to defend themselves, their loved ones, and their property.

We do gun nuts always act(or at least word how they feel) like the only reason we buy guns is to protect ones self. I am fairly certain their is some people who buy guns for the simple fact they enjoy skeet shooting

[YT]MaXOHCNgYrc[/YT]

 

[wiegeabo]

Love that movie.


But so what if people do? As long as their law abiding responsible citizens, why should their right to own a firearm, for whatever reason, be infringed?

Basically, why punish good people for the acts of bad people?

 

[SV Fan]

But so what if people do? As long as their law abiding responsible citizens, why should their right to own a firearm, for whatever reason, be infringed?

Basically, why punish good people for the acts of bad people?

Well let's call a spade a spade, many guns people claim it's their freedom to have because it's our god given right to own guns to "protect ourselves", aren't needed for protection purposes. To act or at least imply like every single gun falls under that set of rules is a bunch of BS. I am not saying ban all guns that aren't for protection purposes either(ie I have no problems with hunting guns for instance) but don't tell me it's your god given constitutional right to own a m16 to protect yourself(basically don't classify every single gun people buy as "protection" as if they all the same and somehow hold true to the 2nd amendment)

 

[Thundercrack85]

This does assume the sole right to own guns is for personal protection, and not fighting a potentially despotic government.

The truth is that quite a few early Americans wanted the right enshrined for just that reason. Now, a lot of people today would scoff at that (since the government nowadays has tanks, jets, nukes, etc), but you could make a legal argument for it.

So, those crazy people today yelling about how its their right to own an AR-15, cause the government might come to get them may be crazy, but they're not entirely wrong, as far as 18th century Americans would be concerned.

 

[SV Fan]

Well a bigger fear then government was the British might come and get you

I am pretty sure foreign invasion not a huge issue now

 

[Thundercrack85]

To be fair, they had a **** load of reasons...

• The fledgling government could easily turn corrupt and despotic (remember Aaron Burr?)
• Like you said the Brits could invade at any time (and they did), not to mention the other countries (France, Spain, etc)
• Indian raids were still common in a lot of the country
• Hunting was a way of life for many
• And... good old fashioned self-defense

People today mostly want them because, well, why not? Their parents had them, their grandparents had them, etc. It's pretty damn ingrained in American society.