Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[Sun_Down]

But let's not pretend that most of the gun crime comes from legally purchased and owned guns.

Do you have any source for this? The closest thing I've seen suggests that 60% of guns used in crimes can be traced to a small number of crooked dealers.

Even if only about 30-40% of gun violence comes from legally purchased guns, that's still a hell of a lot of violence. And strengthening gun control laws would reduce the flow of both illegal and legal firearms.

 

[Tao43]

Do you have any source for this? The closest thing I've seen suggests that 60% of guns used in crimes can be traced to a small number of crooked dealers.

Even if only about 30-40% of gun violence comes from legally purchased guns, that's still a hell of a lot of violence. And strengthening gun control laws would reduce the flow of both illegal and legal firearms.

The problem with the figures for gun violence is that it is misleading. The figures also include acts of suicide and self-defense in addition to homicide through use of a firearm. I would like to see the figures for gun related homicide by themselves.

 

[moviedoors]

The problem with the figures for gun violence is that it is misleading. The figures also include acts of suicide and self-defense in addition to homicide through use of a firearm. I would like to see the figures for gun related homicide by themselves.

As they should.

 

[Sun_Down]

The problem with the figures for gun violence is that it is misleading. The figures also include acts of suicide and self-defense in addition to homicide through use of a firearm. I would like to see the figures for gun related homicide by themselves.

Go ahead and peep the pages a linked to a couple posts back. Dealing with homicide and homicide only.

And even if suicide and self-defense are included, you can't deny that America's level of gun violence is out of control. We're 8x the average for other industrialized nations. 12x when it comes to victims under 15. Statistical variation nothwithstanding, we can do a lot better than having a homicide rate comparable to Argentina.

 

[hippie_hunter]

As they should.

Stricter gun laws aren't going to do much in suicide rates. Asian nations like Japan, South Korea, and China have some of the strictest gun laws in the world and yet they have some of the highest suicide rates in the world.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Gun rights were intended to protect yourself from the government. The idea comes from the fact that the Revolutionary War was started at Lexington and Concord over the British coming to get the guns. Whether or not you agree with gun rights, the purpose of these rights is to be able to protect yourself not only from robbers and intruders, but to fend off a government and over throw it if need be. Now, the wording of the constitution is not as confusing as people make it sound. The founding fathers never thought that weapons would get past the musket because the way the constitution is worded if the USA government has nukes then the citizens should have the right to have nukes too. Guns are important, some regulation is important, but if the people opt to give up their guns, then the ability of the government to become tyrannical is greatly enhanced.

 

[Cobblepot]

Ironically exactly the opposite is happening now. Your goverment is now a puppet to the NRA. They give nothing about the safety of the American citizen, they just want your money.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Ironically exactly the opposite is happening now. Your goverment is now a puppet to the NRA. They give nothing about the safety of the American citizen, they just want your money.

Please explain or guide me, I am ignorant on the issue.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The NRA essentially buys representatives, and in some cases, is literally writing the law.

The NRA opposes most gun regulations most gun owners support (e.g. criminal background checks, legal requirement to report stolen firearms, federal database for guns, etc).

They don't care about gun rights, so much as the profits for gun manufacturers. Although arguably they care about the former as well, as without it, the latter obviously wouldn't be making money.

 

[dnno1]

 

[DjCrenshaw]

The NRA essentially buys representatives, and in some cases, is literally writing the law.

The NRA opposes most gun regulations most gun owners support (e.g. criminal background checks, legal requirement to report stolen firearms, federal database for guns, etc).

They don't care about gun rights, so much as the profits for gun manufacturers. Although arguably they care about the former as well, as without it, the latter obviously wouldn't be making money.

You will always have to decide which has your best interest at heart, too bad it is either big government or big business that you have to rely on. However, I would rather have the freedom to decide whether I wanted to buy a gun or not as opposed to be told I can not buy a gun. A lesser of two evils IMO.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Article I just found. Now I am not sure what regulations need to be taken to help, but I do find this article to tell the gravity of the issue when dealing with 300 million people.


6 Things That Kill More People Than Guns



There were 31,672 firearm-related deaths in 2010. Of these, 11,078 were homicides. That means most gun-related deaths were accidents or suicides. Far too many to be sure, but there are plenty of things that kill more Americans every year than guns. In no order:

1. Cars

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There were 10.8 million car accidents in the US in 2009.​

Of these, about 36,000 were fatal. 5,300 of the dead were pedestrians.​

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2. Alcohol​

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100,000 people die every year in alcohol-related incidents. In 2005, there were over 43,000 fatalities resulting from drinking and driving. Approximately 30% of suicides are triggered by alcohol use.​

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3. Tobacco​

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Almost 450,000 Americans die every year from smoking. About 50,000 of these are from second-hand smoke. Worldwide, smoking kills approximately 5,000,000 people every year.​

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4. Medical Malpractice​

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Preventable medical errors account for 98,000 deaths every year in America. An estimated 15,000,000 incidents of medical harm occur each year. The Center For Disease Control does not include it in its lists of the leading causes of death in America (it would rank 6th).​

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5. Obesity​

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Obesity kills more than 400,000 people annually. Over 200,000 die from conditions caused by obesity like heart disease and diabetes. About 190,000 die from being physically inactive for (way) too long.​

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6. Government​

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In the 20th century alone, governments all over the world were responsible for the deaths of over 260,000,000 of their own people.​

Stalin used government power to kill almost 50,000,000.​

Hitler used government power to kill 11,000,000.​

Mao used government power to kill between 30,000,000 and 70,000,000.​

More people died as a result of their own respective governments than in all the wars of the 20th century.​

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So to keep us safe, following the logic of a "progressive," the government would have to outlaw not only guns, but cars, booze, combustible plant material, doctors (and needles!), twinkies, pizza, and... itself.​

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I'd settle for that last one.
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- See more at: http://simplefactsplainarguments.bl...re-people-than-guns.html#sthash.0gPt5Nv9.dpuf

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't know about that. I don't see why we can't have a second amendment, without nuts getting their hands of semiautomatic rifles. Or people not reporting that said semiautomatic rifle was stolen.

I can list you some regulations if you would like. And which ones the NRA opposes. Spoiler: all of them.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Maybe they can make a law that people who do excessive drinking can't own a gun? Yet, they would most likely be the least capable of just handing their weapons over.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

I don't know about that. I don't see why we can't have a second amendment, without nuts getting their hands of semiautomatic rifles. Or people not reporting that said semiautomatic rifle was stolen.

I can list you some regulations if you would like. And which ones the NRA opposes. Spoiler: all of them.

Of course the big business guys want that skrilla, but did you really think it would be any other way? I'm all for some regulations. I don't think I have implied that I don't. I do think that people of sane minds and good habits should be allowed semi automatics though. Again, the purpose of the second amendment was to defend ones self from the government more than anything.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Loopholes are the biggest problem. You can buy a gun from an individual or a gun show, without any paper trail whatsoever. Even if you are a criminal. Or insane. Or both.

Since there is no database (at least on a federal level), you have no way of keeping track of anything.

Background checks (for criminality or psychological problems) are opposed by the NRA.

Ironically, the NRA used to be much more moderate, and supported some of these measures as late as the 1990's, but like most right-wing groups, they have gone through a period of radicalization.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Loopholes are the biggest problem. You can buy a gun from an individual or a gun show, without any paper trail whatsoever. Even if you are a criminal. Or insane. Or both.

Since there is no database (at least on a federal level), you have no way of keeping track of anything.

Background checks (for criminality or psychological problems) are opposed by the NRA.

Ironically, the NRA used to be much more moderate, and supported some of these measures as late as the 1990's, but like most right-wing groups, they have gone through a period of radicalization.

I am in no way supporting the NRA. I don't really approve of lobbyist groups. However, I did read after Newtown that the NRA had actually admitted that background checks were necessary. I was under the impression that people needed background checks. If they want to really curb this, they should impose stiffer sanctions on those who sale guns.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It varies from state to state, but even there, there are loopholes. For example, in some states, you need a background check for "over the table" sales (e.g. from let's say Wal Mart). While buying under the table, like from an individual, or at a gun show, requires no background checks.

The NRA opposes all regulations introduced in Connecticut after Newtown, including background checks (I believe the others were related to magazine restrictions).

The NRA opposes all background checks.

The NRA is also opposed to stiffer sanctions.

Basically, the NRA is blocking any sort of restriction, in multiple areas. Well, every area, really. They are, love them or hate them, an amazing lobbying group.

I mean holy hell, if there was an NRA for... the other amendments, America would be in great shape – well, except for you know, the crazy people getting their hands on semiautomatic rifles – but otherwise...

 

[DjCrenshaw]

See, this is where I also have a hard time of deciding between right and morally right. I mean we could force mentally unstable people to have an indication on their driver's license like you have to label your vision requirements. However, thinking about that makes me think that is infringing on other rights. Like the right to privacy which is covered somewhat under the 4th and 9th amendments (after Roe V. Wade case setting a precedence).

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, the American mental health system is in shambles.

If you regularly hallucinate though, it would probably be best that you didn't own a deadly weapon.

At the very least we should all be able to get together on the criminal background check.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

Well, the American mental health system is in shambles.

If you regularly hallucinate though, it would probably be best that you didn't own a deadly weapon.

At the very least we should all be able to get together on the criminal background check.

State of Tennessee doesn't have a mental health program anymore. Sad, lots of homeless people with mental disorders or thrown in jail with bad criminals who wish them harm. I think the only way to really enforce these under the table sales back ground checks is through holding the seller as a near equal to the offender and whatever crime they commit. Yet, Newtown was a case where the crazy kid stole the guns from his mother. Does that mean if you have children or have regular visitors that are mentally disabled that you too should not have a gun?

 

[Thundercrack85]

State of Tennessee doesn't have a mental health program anymore. Sad, lots of homeless people with mental disorders or thrown in jail with bad criminals who wish them harm. I think the only way to really enforce these under the table sales back ground checks is through holding the seller as a near equal to the offender and whatever crime they commit. Yet, Newtown was a case where the crazy kid stole the guns from his mother. Does that mean if you have children or have regular visitors that are mentally disabled that you too should not have a gun?

Well, that's not going to happen unless the pass new restrictions, but that won't happen. After all, even if you pick up a murderer with a weapon they purchased – you have no way to trace it.

Now personally, if I had children, and owned firearms, I would have a gun safe. There are other things they can do, like require sellers to sell guns with trigger locks. Not perfect, but it would certainly decrease the number of accidental gun deaths.

To me that seems fairly uncontroversial. I would hope that wouldn't need to be enforced by law, but perhaps it does. Like, keeping guns out of reach of minors.

The mother was foolish to allow her mentally unstable son to have access to an arsenal of guns. But I don't know if a law would have dissuaded her, since, well, she paid the ultimate price for it.

Still, it couldn't hurt. I.e. a law requiring you to have cable locks on your guns if you have a mentally unstable person as your dependent.

 

[DjCrenshaw]

I find these things near impossible to enforce. Going to have to change the people, and force them to make better decisions. I have to also include that the amount of violent gun crimes are linked to people's environments as well. I can not exclude this from the conversation because people need to be brought up in better situations and have hope. That means you attack the communities and try to make a change; however, some people will say that these communities are too far gone into their habits. I see way more gun violence being gang/drug related and fits of emotional violence.

 

[dnno1]

I find these things near impossible to enforce. Going to have to change the people, and force them to make better decisions. I have to also include that the amount of violent gun crimes are linked to people's environments as well. I can not exclude this from the conversation because people need to be brought up in better situations and have hope. That means you attack the communities and try to make a change; however, some people will say that these communities are too far gone into their habits. I see way more gun violence being gang/drug related and fits of emotional violence.

What about Michael Dunn?

 

[Thundercrack85]

To me it's not so much an issue of enforcement, as just having them.

Even if you can prevent one of the hundreds of accidental gun deaths a year, then it seems like it's worth having to me. I mean, I put my bike lock on my bike, I think a person can be bothered to put a trigger lock on a gun.