Discussion: The Second Amendment

[Paradyme]

I agree but what he did wasn't illegal and it's no reason to call for stricter gun control.

I concur.

 

[Paradyme]

I don't think I want my neighbor to own a 105 Howitzer. There should be some type of gun control.

That...is an overexaggeration.

 

[Heretic]

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with self defense or hunting.

It is in place for one reason...to overthrow the government if need be. The founding fathers gave us this right because they knew that ANY government could become a totalitarian regime. They feared it would happen in their new country...so they ensured that the public could rise up against the government and have a decent chance at overthrowing the tyrants and restoring liberty.

None of us (nor anyone currently in Washington) understands the issue as well as the founding fathers and their contemporaries...so I will let their wisdom guide me.

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787)

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it.
---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
---George Mason

But wait...these guys are now described as terrorists by factions of our current government...and clearly the people in charge now are smarter than the people who drafte the documents our country is based on.

 

[Franklin Richards]

They weren't Gods. They invented a philosophy that all men were created equal and they had slaves.


Wake up. They were flawed men and they knew it. That's why we have amendments.

 

[Heretic]

They weren't Gods. They invented a philosophy that all men were created equal and they had slaves.


Wake up. They were flawed men and they knew it. That's why we have amendments.

Wait...so youre saying that they were WRONG that a free country can be taken over by a tyrant? Or are you saying that they were wrong to believe that we should have the right to defend freedom if it happens??

Pick one of the two, because thats all my post concerns.

 

[Franklin Richards]

..and clearly the people in charge now are smarter than the people who drafte the documents our country is based on.

You suggested that our forefathers were smarter than our current leaders. I was suggesting that they weren't.

Wait...so youre saying that they were WRONG that a free country can be taken over by a tyrant? Or are you saying that they were wrong to believe that we should have the right to defend freedom if it happens??

Pick one of the two, because thats all my post concerns.

I've stopped beating my wife.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

But wait...these guys are now described as terrorists by factions of our current government...and clearly the people in charge now are smarter than the people who drafte the documents our country is based on.

I wouldn't say they're smarter but I would say they have a better idea of what is best for our country today as opposed to men who lived over 200 years ago.

The right to vote was originally for white, landowning males. Should we change it back to that just because the founding fathers originally wrote it as such?

 

[StorminNorman]

They weren't Gods. They invented a philosophy that all men were created equal and they had slaves.


Wake up. They were flawed men and they knew it. That's why we have amendments.

Thomas Jefferson's hypocrisy shouldn't be used against others. Many founding fathers did believe that all men were created equal. Alexander Hamilton, for example, was a leading abolitionist and an advocate for Native American rights (helped founding a school for their education) and played a far more significant role in the Constitution and creation of the American Government than Jefferson ever did.

 

[Heretic]

So, when the country was founded, we needed the ability to overthrow our government...which was as free as any country ever...

But 200 years later as our freedoms are being eroded daily...it is NOT necessary for the people to be able to overthrow the government??

That makes no sense. The 2nd amendment will always be about the peoples right to fight against the government if need be. If you actually think that the potential for that has disappeared and that now that freedom is assured we can start eliminating the rights that ensure freedom...then...well, youre wrong.

 

[Franklin Richards]

No, Potsie!


You're wrong!

 

[Franklin Richards]

Thomas Jefferson's hypocrisy shouldn't be used against others. Many founding fathers did believe that all men were created equal. Alexander Hamilton, for example, was a leading abolitionist and an advocate for Native American rights (helped founding a school for their education) and played a far more significant role in the Constitution and creation of the American Government than Jefferson ever did.

Come on, Norm! You're really gonna downplay Jefferson's role?

 

[StorminNorman]

Come on, Norm! You're really gonna downplay Jefferson's role?

With the facts on your side, it's rather easy to do.

Jefferson's greatest gift to the Revolution was a beautifully written letter he himself did not believe in. Jefferson's own ideas about government were almost always rejected by Washington in favor of Hamilton and when Jefferson himself found himself in the White House he tended to side more with issues Hamilton was known for than his own previous principals. No one's history has been better rewritten than that of Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

So, when the country was founded, we needed the ability to overthrow our government...which was as free as any country ever...

But 200 years later as our freedoms are being eroded daily...it is NOT necessary for the people to be able to overthrow the government??

That makes no sense. The 2nd amendment will always be about the peoples right to fight against the government if need be. If you actually think that the potential for that has disappeared and that now that freedom is assured we can start eliminating the rights that ensure freedom...then...well, youre wrong.

I wasn't really clear on your post. You're saying we should be allowed to posses guns, correct?

 

[Heretic]

No, Potsie!


You're wrong!

My statement was that teh founding fathers included the 2nd amendment as a method of ensuring that the people coul fight the government if it became tyrannical...I then posted several quotes of those same founding fathers saying exactly what i claimed that said...

So, I am right. You may not believe that the government could be tyrannical...you might actually hope for the day when it is...but it is a FACT that the 2nd Amendment exists to protect the people from the government.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

the question is too broad to give a simple answer to.
but in a word. no.

 

[Nivek]

I think he also exercised poor judgment

Incredibly poor judgment. And I also believe this clown may have started something with these types that like to flaunt their gun ownership.


As far as the 2nd amendment against Tyranny thing, most people in this country crying about Tyranny are talking out of their ***. The ones against it would support it as long as it is in their belief system. That is the scary thing to me. Look at how Presidential dissenters were viewed 4-6 years ago (Traitors, Nazis, Un-American), and how they are viewed now (Patriots, Free-thinkers, Vocal Taxpayers wanting their say). All that matters is which side you are on, the winners of an election, or losers. Personally IMO, those who lose an election, it is usually the polar extreme of that political group fringe shouting "Tyranny!!!".


Also, you can look what happened during Katrina (neighborhood militias & gangs armed and out on the streets, police/ military gun confiscation, multiple murders in the name of self defense and looting protection) to see how f'ed up things can get real fast despite people Constitutional rights. Once Martial Law is declared and you have a gun, the 2nd amendment doesn't mean crap, your just another potential hostile in a dangerous environment to the authorities.

 

[Majic Walrus]

So, some guy shows up at an Obama town hall with a gun strapped to his leg, holding a sign with the "Tree of Liberty" quote favored by Domestic Militia groups, and got off pretty easy by just being watched by police. Now because most non-gun nut Americans thought that was crossing a line, now all the 2nd amendment people are coming out of the woodwork in outrage that people are saying he shouldn't bring a gun to a political debate.

Wow... I support the 2nd amendment, but people like this guy are the reasons it could be stripped away by acting brash and stupid. Of course, now we find out this is one of those people who condone gunning down police trying to get in your house.

Seriously, where are the non-wack gun owners out there to talk down these typoe of actions? If this guy did the same thing withing 5 miles of a Bush speech 4 years ago, what do you think would have happened there?

I agree with you, he didn't think well about the overall consequences of his actions however he did excersize his right to carry a firearm in public legally.

What is the point of a right if you choose not to excersize it?

 

[Franklin Richards]

I have the right to abortion but I CHOOSE to not exercise it.



"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

---Rush

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But 200 years later as our freedoms are being eroded daily...it is NOT necessary for the people to be able to overthrow the government??

We need to overthrow the government?

 

[Franklin Richards]

Yes. Obviously we need to overthrow the government for Taxation with Representation.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Or maybe we just need a politician sacrificed each year to please the gods of freedom?

That could put people at ease...

 

[Spidey-Bat]

We need to overthrow the government?

We need to be able to.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I'm pretty sure that's what elections are for.

 

[BlackLantern]

We need to be able to.

or the government should be aware that the people can rise up and do so if needed

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I'm pretty sure that's what elections are for.

A government that would need to be overthrown would have to be corrupt and the elections would be fradulent. Much like in Iran where Ahmadinejad won his rival's city by a wide margin.